Brainless PSNI and Parades Commission

[el_cuervo_fc]

2 bands in Ros Cuain in Donegal. Fierce row up there which started over a drum and then it all kicked off.
Still talked about to this day.

Some beatin' I heard

[GAA_Talk]

2 bands in Ros Cuain in Donegal. Fierce row up there which started over a drum and then it all kicked off.
Still talked about to this day.

Some beatin' I heard

Ba dum tish.

[Evil Genius]

But in truth, for many years Unionists had to put up with eg the ChuckyFest that was Belfast's St.Paddy's Day (Tricolours, Celtic tops and painted faces etc), without feeling the irresistable urge to "wreck the place".

I think you've shown your true colours there. So what you're saying is that its payback time. It doesn't matter that things have moved on and Belfast/Armagh/Downpatrick/Newry have taken massive strides to make their St Patrick's Day events all inclusive, the fact is that they didn't use to be and that therefore appears to be your justification for supporting a loyalist march with all the loyalist paraphernalia through Armagh.

Not what I said at all.

Bennydorano claimed that the only alternative to putting up with this Loyalist parade would be to "wreck the place". Never mind the other possibilities (eg appealing the PC decision, or protesting peacefully), I consider that "wrecking the place" is not an acceptable alternative at all.

And to illustrate this principle, I pointed out that when Unionists were faced with the same* provocation eg in Belfast, they desisted from "wrecking the place" - and quite right, too.

Therefore what you characterise as "payback", or some sort of "justification" (and you ignore my post where I said it would have been better all round if they'd stuck with Killylea, btw), was actually just an illustration of how "turning the other cheek" is often the least unacceptable response.


* - Arguably the provocation in Belfast was worse, since that involved hi-jacking the main BCC event, which is meant to be open to all. Whereas the Cormeen Band Parade was required to wait until after the two main Parades in Armagh were well over, and anyone who didn't like it would be either in the pub, or at home. And it was also in compliance with strict conditions re route, marshalling, emblems and traffic control etc.

[Evil Genius]

Celebrating the feast day of a Roman Catholic Irish Saint by holding a loyalist band parade to underline your British culture and identity? Even though he may have been of Romano/Franco/Welsh extraction seems a bit bizarre.

No more / less bizarre than your post.

St Patrick a fenian?

Is that you Shane?

Not a fenian but a Saint created by the RC church, to my knowledge the Protestant churches don't create Saints they use all the old pre reformation ones.

I remember seeing Ian Paisley Senior interviewed on the telly, in the late 90s. He said that St. Patrick was as much a saint to Protestants as he was to RCs.

He was still an RC Bishop.

If you must insist on ascribing a denomination towards Patrick, then you you would be better placed in choosing the only appropriate one for a 5th Century Welshman who ministered in Ireland, i.e. a bishop of the Celtic Christian church, later recognised by all the other denominations of the Christian Church.

Created a Saint by the Bishop of Rome.

Go on, then, which Bishop of Rome was it canonised him, and when?

"And if. You know. Your History. It's enough to make your heart go Woahhhhhhhhhh" 

Ok so you want to be pedantic he has never been canonized by the Roman Catholic Church.

It's nothing to do with "pedantry", it's a matter of straightforward historical fact. That is, when you claimed that Patrick was "created a saint by the Bishop of Rome", you were quite simply wrong:

Q: Is it true that the Catholic Church never officially canonized St. Patrick?

A: St. Patrick died around 461 A.D. The first saint formally canonized by the pope—for which we have a record, anyway—was St. Ulrich, bishop of Augsburg, Germany, in the year 993.

For most of Christianity's first 1,000 years, canonizations were done on the diocesan or regional level. Relatively soon after very holy people died, the local Church affirmed that they could be liturgically celebrated as saints.
http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Mar2001/Wiseman.asp#F4

Note the word "local", then look at a local map of Italy...

But when the Roman Catholic Church established its first list of Saints , Patrick was on it.

When all the other denominations, sects and churches etc established their lists of Saints, Patrick was generally on them, too.

Therefore he was created and accepted as as Saint by the One Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church.

No, he was NOT "created as a Saint by the One Holy etc". He was created a Saint by popular acclaim of the early Celtic Church, locally to where he preached.

You know, as well as being very ignorant, your attempt to establish some sort of proprietary right over Patrick on behalf of the Church of Rome is also very childish...

[Evil Genius]

Anyway, rival St. Patricks' day parades have been part and parcel of Irish culture for years. Who could forget the rivalry of A.O.H Luganderry and The Sons of St. Patrick between 1912 and 1917.

During the last century, there was (often fierce) fighting between two local factions in South Fermanagh, centred around two Flute Bands (AOH and Foresters?).

Anyhow, one of the tactics employed was to try to destroy the other band's instruments. Eventually one year, coming up to the 'Fenian Twelfth' (15th August), a member of one band approached my grandfather, a farmer, to ask whether he'd hide the band's drums in one of his sheds until the big day. Since my granda was an Orangeman and Unionist Councillor, the rival band would surely never think to look on his property (He also was trusted locally to keep his mouth shut about such matters, since he was sometimes also asked eg to sign postal vote applications, or witness legal documents etc, on behalf of his Catholic neighbours who wanted to keep their intentions confidential.)

Anyhow, Granda was happy to oblige a friend, but he struggled not to laugh when approached a couple of days later by someone from the other band, asking "a wee favour"... 

[Applesisapples]

Celebrating the feast day of a Roman Catholic Irish Saint by holding a loyalist band parade to underline your British culture and identity? Even though he may have been of Romano/Franco/Welsh extraction seems a bit bizarre.

No more / less bizarre than your post.

St Patrick a fenian?

Is that you Shane?

Not a fenian but a Saint created by the RC church, to my knowledge the Protestant churches don't create Saints they use all the old pre reformation ones.

I remember seeing Ian Paisley Senior interviewed on the telly, in the late 90s. He said that St. Patrick was as much a saint to Protestants as he was to RCs.

He was still an RC Bishop.

If you must insist on ascribing a denomination towards Patrick, then you you would be better placed in choosing the only appropriate one for a 5th Century Welshman who ministered in Ireland, i.e. a bishop of the Celtic Christian church, later recognised by all the other denominations of the Christian Church.

Created a Saint by the Bishop of Rome.

Go on, then, which Bishop of Rome was it canonised him, and when?

"And if. You know. Your History. It's enough to make your heart go Woahhhhhhhhhh" 

Ok so you want to be pedantic he has never been canonized by the Roman Catholic Church.

It's nothing to do with "pedantry", it's a matter of straightforward historical fact. That is, when you claimed that Patrick was "created a saint by the Bishop of Rome", you were quite simply wrong:

Q: Is it true that the Catholic Church never officially canonized St. Patrick?

A: St. Patrick died around 461 A.D. The first saint formally canonized by the pope—for which we have a record, anyway—was St. Ulrich, bishop of Augsburg, Germany, in the year 993.

For most of Christianity's first 1,000 years, canonizations were done on the diocesan or regional level. Relatively soon after very holy people died, the local Church affirmed that they could be liturgically celebrated as saints.
http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Mar2001/Wiseman.asp#F4

Note the word "local", then look at a local map of Italy...

But when the Roman Catholic Church established its first list of Saints , Patrick was on it.

When all the other denominations, sects and churches etc established their lists of Saints, Patrick was generally on them, too.

Therefore he was created and accepted as as Saint by the One Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church.

No, he was NOT "created as a Saint by the One Holy etc". He was created a Saint by popular acclaim of the early Celtic Church, locally to where he preached.

You know, as well as being very ignorant, your attempt to establish some sort of proprietary right over Patrick on behalf of the Church of Rome is also very childish...

Nothing to do with childishness it is historical fact that Patrick was created a Saint by the pre reformation Church which was Catholic (the other churches being break aways) and this was confirmed by the list which you have mentioned. It is good that all Churches can accept and acknowledge Patrick as the Patron of our Country Ireland. And to my knowledge Protestant Churches do not create Saints, or do they? To get back to my original point I find it ironic that this band chooses to do so in the manner it does. When although as we all know, but you won't admit the real reason was to annoy the locals. It is funny that Unionist politicians want to take the Irish flag out of St Patricks Day celebrations, yet this band wouldn't drop their Union Flags and Loyalist Banners in order that they could jointly celebrate St Patrick with the rest of us.

[Evil Genius]

Nothing to do with childishness it is historical fact that Patrick was created a Saint by the pre reformation Church which was Catholic (the other churches being break aways) and this was confirmed by the list which you have mentioned.

Never mind the propaganda about apostolic succession etc, you claimed that Patrick was created a Saint by the Bishop of Rome, which is just plain wrong.

That you persist in trying to deny your error is beyond ignorance, beyond even childishness, it's becoming pathetic.

The next stage is embarrassment*.

* - For the rest of us, if not you...

It is good that all Churches can accept and acknowledge Patrick as the Patron of our Country Ireland.

Of course they do. They're Christians, just like Patrick was.

And to my knowledge Protestant Churches do not create Saints, or do they?

Irrelevant as to the "ownership" of St. Patrick (or false claims to same).

To get back to my original point I find it ironic that this band chooses to do so in the manner it does.

No more "ironic" than eg people who hardly darken the door of their local church from one year to the next deciding to dress up in leprechaun outfits, get p1ssed on Guinness and boak in peoples gardens etc, in honour of the Feast of St. Patrick.

When although as we all know, but you won't admit the real reason was to annoy the locals.

I don't have to "admit" anything. In my opinion, the chief purpose of switching this Parade from Killylea to Armagh was to raise more funds and publicity etc.
Now granted, some/many of these bandsmen might not care if they annoy others etc, but they will also have known that by switching to Armagh the PC would impose strict conditions in order to confine nuisance, disruption and annoyance etc to an acceptable minimum. And they (PC) did, which is why no-one actually was annoyed (other than a couple of idiots who seemingly went out of their way to get arrested).

It is funny that Unionist politicians want to take the Irish flag out of St Patricks Day celebrations

Incorrect. Unionist politicians want to take partisan flags out of Council-funded events which are supposed to be for all of the ratepayers.
No Unionist (or Protestant) objected in any way to the imagery and symbolism etc of the RC Parade in Armagh (nor should they), which was held by and primarily for the RC population of the city.

... yet this band wouldn't drop their Union Flags and Loyalist Banners in order that they could jointly celebrate St Patrick with the rest of us.

Whether they wanted to clebrate jointly with everyone else is beside the point, since they weren't permitted by the PC to do so. Rather, they were instructed that they must hold their parade on a prescribed route, in a prescribed manner and at a prescribed time, precisely so as NOT to interfere with the other two parades. Which they didn't.

Moreover, if they insisted* at a future date in being allowed to join in the Council event, I have no doubt they would be instructed to drop the Loyalist paraphenalia, and quite properly, too.


* - They won't, I'm sure.

[Applesisapples]

Nothing to do with childishness it is historical fact that Patrick was created a Saint by the pre reformation Church which was Catholic (the other churches being break aways) and this was confirmed by the list which you have mentioned.

Never mind the propaganda about apostolic succession etc, you claimed that Patrick was created a Saint by the Bishop of Rome, which is just plain wrong.

That you persist in trying to deny your error is beyond ignorance, beyond even childishness, it's becoming pathetic.

The next stage is embarrassment*.

* - For the rest of us, if not you...

It is good that all Churches can accept and acknowledge Patrick as the Patron of our Country Ireland.

Of course they do. They're Christians, just like Patrick was.

And to my knowledge Protestant Churches do not create Saints, or do they?

Irrelevant as to the "ownership" of St. Patrick (or false claims to same).

To get back to my original point I find it ironic that this band chooses to do so in the manner it does.

No more "ironic" than eg people who hardly darken the door of their local church from one year to the next deciding to dress up in leprechaun outfits, get p1ssed on Guinness and boak in peoples gardens etc, in honour of the Feast of St. Patrick.

When although as we all know, but you won't admit the real reason was to annoy the locals.

I don't have to "admit" anything. In my opinion, the chief purpose of switching this Parade from Killylea to Armagh was to raise more funds and publicity etc.
Now granted, some/many of these bandsmen might not care if they annoy others etc, but they will also have known that by switching to Armagh the PC would impose strict conditions in order to confine nuisance, disruption and annoyance etc to an acceptable minimum. And they (PC) did, which is why no-one actually was annoyed (other than a couple of idiots who seemingly went out of their way to get arrested).

It is funny that Unionist politicians want to take the Irish flag out of St Patricks Day celebrations

Incorrect. Unionist politicians want to take partisan flags out of Council-funded events which are supposed to be for all of the ratepayers.
No Unionist (or Protestant) objected in any way to the imagery and symbolism etc of the RC Parade in Armagh (nor should they), which was held by and primarily for the RC population of the city.

... yet this band wouldn't drop their Union Flags and Loyalist Banners in order that they could jointly celebrate St Patrick with the rest of us.

Whether they wanted to clebrate jointly with everyone else is beside the point, since they weren't permitted by the PC to do so. Rather, they were instructed that they must hold their parade on a prescribed route, in a prescribed manner and at a prescribed time, precisely so as NOT to interfere with the other two parades. Which they didn't.

Moreover, if they insisted* at a future date in being allowed to join in the Council event, I have no doubt they would be instructed to drop the Loyalist paraphenalia, and quite properly, too.


* - They won't, I'm sure.

Keep rewriting history EG, the Protestant Churches broke away from the Church of Rome fact. Next you'll be claiming the Borgias, oh wait you can have them. There is absolutely no issue or problem with all Christians celebrating Patrick and your picking up on that part of my post which was meant to be tongue in cheek detracts from the facts about the motives of Loyalist flute bands and the hypocracy of Unionists who couldn't even agree to a bit of Irish on the Downpatrick Council Flag, so much for sharing the future eh? Not sure where the beer and leprechaun's come into it, distasteful as they are. However the leader of this esteemed cultural grouping stated on Radio Uladh that the had been invited to join the official parade but declined because they would have had to drop their loyalist emblems.

[Evil Genius]

Keep rewriting history EG, the Protestant Churches broke away from the Church of Rome fact. Next you'll be claiming the Borgias, oh wait you can have them.

Arguing with a claim that I never actually made? Yep, that's Embarrassment all right.

Whatever next?

There is absolutely no issue or problem with all Christians celebrating Patrick and your picking up on that part of my post which was meant to be tongue in cheek detracts from the facts...

Ah, yes, the old "I wasn't being serious" defence... 

... about the motives of Loyalist flute bands and the hypocracy of Unionists who couldn't even agree to a bit of Irish on the Downpatrick Council Flag, so much for sharing the future eh?

Er, we're talking about Armagh here, not Downpatrick.
Still, I might have guessed you'd resort to "whataboutery" sooner or later.

Not sure where the beer and leprechaun's come into it, distasteful as they are.

Now that's ironic!

However the leader of this esteemed cultural grouping stated on Radio Uladh that the had been invited to join the official parade but declined because they would have had to drop their loyalist emblems.

Which was precisely the point [bold] I made when I posted:

"Moreover, if they insisted* at a future date in being allowed to join in the Council event, I have no doubt they would be instructed to drop the Loyalist paraphenalia, and quite properly, too.

* - They won't, I'm sure."

Do try to keep up.

[Dougal Maguire]

Anyway, rival St. Patricks' day parades have been part and parcel of Irish culture for years. Who could forget the rivalry of A.O.H Luganderry and The Sons of St. Patrick between 1912 and 1917.

During the last century, there was (often fierce) fighting between two local factions in South Fermanagh, centred around two Flute Bands (AOH and Foresters?).

Anyhow, one of the tactics employed was to try to destroy the other band's instruments. Eventually one year, coming up to the 'Fenian Twelfth' (15th August), a member of one band approached my grandfather, a farmer, to ask whether he'd hide the band's drums in one of his sheds until the big day. Since my granda was an Orangeman and Unionist Councillor, the rival band would surely never think to look on his property (He also was trusted locally to keep his mouth shut about such matters, since he was sometimes also asked eg to sign postal vote applications, or witness legal documents etc, on behalf of his Catholic neighbours who wanted to keep their intentions confidential.)

Anyhow, Granda was happy to oblige a friend, but he struggled not to laugh when approached a couple of days later by someone from the other band, asking "a wee favour"... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0h0Y-gVzFQ   (19 minutes 58 seconds in)

[armaghniac]

The basic thrust of unionists generally is to prevent St Patrick's day being celebrated in the same way with everyone involved as it is everywhere else in the world.

[Applesisapples]

Keep rewriting history EG, the Protestant Churches broke away from the Church of Rome fact. Next you'll be claiming the Borgias, oh wait you can have them.

Arguing with a claim that I never actually made? Yep, that's Embarrassment all right.

Whatever next?

There is absolutely no issue or problem with all Christians celebrating Patrick and your picking up on that part of my post which was meant to be tongue in cheek detracts from the facts...

Ah, yes, the old "I wasn't being serious" defence... 

... about the motives of Loyalist flute bands and the hypocracy of Unionists who couldn't even agree to a bit of Irish on the Downpatrick Council Flag, so much for sharing the future eh?

Er, we're talking about Armagh here, not Downpatrick.
Still, I might have guessed you'd resort to "whataboutery" sooner or later.

Not sure where the beer and leprechaun's come into it, distasteful as they are.

Now that's ironic!

However the leader of this esteemed cultural grouping stated on Radio Uladh that the had been invited to join the official parade but declined because they would have had to drop their loyalist emblems.

Which was precisely the point [bold] I made when I posted:

"Moreover, if they insisted* at a future date in being allowed to join in the Council event, I have no doubt they would be instructed to drop the Loyalist paraphenalia, and quite properly, too.

* - They won't, I'm sure."

Do try to keep up.

But sure your whole raison d'etre for being on this board is whataboutery or are you genuinely interested in Gaelic Games and Irish cultural organisations?

[Applesisapples]

The basic thrust of unionists generally is to prevent St Patrick's day being celebrated in the same way with everyone involved as it is everywhere else in the world.

Exactly!

[thebigfella]

Keep rewriting history EG, the Protestant Churches broke away from the Church of Rome fact. Next you'll be claiming the Borgias, oh wait you can have them.

Arguing with a claim that I never actually made? Yep, that's Embarrassment all right.

Whatever next?

There is absolutely no issue or problem with all Christians celebrating Patrick and your picking up on that part of my post which was meant to be tongue in cheek detracts from the facts...

Ah, yes, the old "I wasn't being serious" defence... 

... about the motives of Loyalist flute bands and the hypocracy of Unionists who couldn't even agree to a bit of Irish on the Downpatrick Council Flag, so much for sharing the future eh?

Er, we're talking about Armagh here, not Downpatrick.
Still, I might have guessed you'd resort to "whataboutery" sooner or later.

Not sure where the beer and leprechaun's come into it, distasteful as they are.

Now that's ironic!

However the leader of this esteemed cultural grouping stated on Radio Uladh that the had been invited to join the official parade but declined because they would have had to drop their loyalist emblems.

Which was precisely the point [bold] I made when I posted:

"Moreover, if they insisted* at a future date in being allowed to join in the Council event, I have no doubt they would be instructed to drop the Loyalist paraphenalia, and quite properly, too.

* - They won't, I'm sure."

Do try to keep up.

But sure your whole raison d'etre for being on this board is whataboutery or are you genuinely interested in Gaelic Games and Irish cultural organisations?

It's a general discussion, they constant politics threads would be a waste of time if you all had the same opinion.

[Evil Genius]

Keep rewriting history EG, the Protestant Churches broke away from the Church of Rome fact. Next you'll be claiming the Borgias, oh wait you can have them.

Arguing with a claim that I never actually made? Yep, that's Embarrassment all right.

Whatever next?

There is absolutely no issue or problem with all Christians celebrating Patrick and your picking up on that part of my post which was meant to be tongue in cheek detracts from the facts...

Ah, yes, the old "I wasn't being serious" defence... 

... about the motives of Loyalist flute bands and the hypocracy of Unionists who couldn't even agree to a bit of Irish on the Downpatrick Council Flag, so much for sharing the future eh?

Er, we're talking about Armagh here, not Downpatrick.
Still, I might have guessed you'd resort to "whataboutery" sooner or later.

Not sure where the beer and leprechaun's come into it, distasteful as they are.

Now that's ironic!

However the leader of this esteemed cultural grouping stated on Radio Uladh that the had been invited to join the official parade but declined because they would have had to drop their loyalist emblems.

Which was precisely the point [bold] I made when I posted:

"Moreover, if they insisted* at a future date in being allowed to join in the Council event, I have no doubt they would be instructed to drop the Loyalist paraphenalia, and quite properly, too.

* - They won't, I'm sure."

Do try to keep up.

But sure your whole raison d'etre for being on this board is whataboutery or are you genuinely interested in Gaelic Games and Irish cultural organisations?

And finally, when all attempts to play the ball prove fruitless, you resort to playing the man.

Well done - you've now completed the full set...