Atheist Ireland put back in their box!

[thejuice]

MGHU Read all my posts again.

The point I'm making is that Atheism is not the root of mass murders in history but neither is Theism.

[Eamonnca1]

MGHU Read all my posts again.

The point I'm making is that Atheism is not the root of mass murders in history but neither is Theism.

Well actually it is. You could argue that the crusades were politically motivated, but it took religion to convince people to go and fight in them. Same goes for modern jihadism.

[thejuice]

Yes, that is exactly my point.

Likewise, the Nazi's were politically motivated but it took nationalism, racism etc etc  to convince people to go out and fight for them.

Removing religion removes just one possible motive, not them all.

[Eamonnca1]

It'd remove a big source of trouble in the world. Look at the Arab-Israeli question which is arguably the biggest source of instability in the world today.  When the Jews set up their state after WWII they didn't exactly settle for an unpopulated corner of the Amazon rainforest or the Australian outback, they made themselves at home in Palestine because of a biblical belief that they were destined to hang onto that land, and the latter day settlers who scuppering every effort to negotiate a settlement are settling where they are for purely religious reasons. The two sides can't reach an agreement because of the uncompromising nature of religious faith. The three big religions all have claims on Jerusalem for purely theological reasons, and if it wasn't for that the whole matter could have been settled years ago and Iran (which wouldn't be in the grip of the mullahs) would not be keeping us all guessing about what they're up to - they'd be a normal country trading with the rest of the world. In the nuclear age, this is some serious shit we're dealing with here.

[theskull1]

Interesting discussion about a qualitatuve  study of clergy/seminary professors who continue to serve their congregations but not a diety.

http://richarddawkins.net/2014/03/linda-lascola-and-andy-thomson-discuss-caught-in-the-pulpitleaving-belief-behind-part-1-of-2-2/

[omaghjoe]

It'd remove a big source of trouble in the world. Look at the Arab-Israeli question which is arguably the biggest source of instability in the world today. 

I agree, but its a tough argument tho? Considering large parts of Africa have been and continue to be torn apart by tribal/racial conflicts with millions dead. Considering India and Pakistan both have nuclear weapons, are in a state of war and have a history of genocide.

When the Jews set up their state after WWII they didn't exactly settle for an unpopulated corner of the Amazon rainforest or the Australian outback, they made themselves at home in Palestine because of a biblical belief that they were destined to hang onto that land, and the latter day settlers who scuppering every effort to negotiate a settlement are settling where they are for purely religious reasons.

Yes but wasn't it acutally for nationalistic reasons that the state was set up in the first place? Jews were living spread throughout the Middle east, Europe and North Africa, it was only with the rise of Nationalism in the 19th century that zionism surfaced and a few radicals decided that they needed a homeland

The two sides can't reach an agreement because of the uncompromising nature of religious faith.

I am pretty sure both religions involved like Christianity teach tolerance, love and respect. I believe all 3 use the 10 commandments as the foundations for the rest of their faith. I agree religon is generally uncompromising but in it is uncompromising in its pursuit of attributes such as forgiveness, mercy, love, understanding, humility, charity.

The three big religions all have claims on Jerusalem for purely theological reasons,

So that would be Christianity, Islam, and Hindiusm? Taoism? Buddism? Surely your not talking about Judaism? Hell I think there is might be more Mormans than Jews!

and if it wasn't for that the whole matter could have been settled years ago and Iran (which wouldn't be in the grip of the mullahs)

Sort of completely unrelated to Palestine... you are aware Iran is no where near the Holy Land? They speak a different language, have a different ethnicity and practice a different religion. Its kind of like saying our thing in the north was some how related to the Balkans war

would not be keeping us all guessing about what they're up to - they'd be a normal country trading with the rest of the world.

Pretty sure they are a stable functioning state who has a large amount of trade with other countries despite the media portrayal,

In the nuclear age, this is some serious shit we're dealing with here.

What exactly do you think Iran would do with a Nuclear weapon? The big clue is look at every other country's use of their nuclear arsenal, its a free pass to the head table of international diplomacy, well it not free its quite expensive but it gets you there.

[bennydorano]

Just back from holiday & had some wonderfully light reading in Christopher Hitchen's 'God is not Great'.  Jesus that man could articulate an argument. Anybody with an interest in this thread should make a point of reading it.

[T Fearon]

What conclusion did he come to? God is not great but he's

A) Very good for his age?

B) Above average?

C) He's still better than Wayne Rooney?

[LeoMc]

What conclusion did he come to? God is not great but he's

A) Very good for his age?

B) Above average?

C) He's still better than Wayne Rooney?

d) held his nerve to hit that last free.

[The Iceman]

Just back from holiday & had some wonderfully light reading in Christopher Hitchen's 'God is not Great'.  Jesus that man could articulate an argument. Anybody with an interest in this thread should make a point of reading it.

But doesn't Christopher Hitchens also argue that everyone's ideas are nothing more than the result of electro-chemical processes in our brains? That the universe is "matter and matter only"? That the transcendent laws of reason and logic (which are not electro-chemical processes in our brain matter) can't exist?

It might be an interesting read benny but the author himself argues that his own thoughts are nothing......

[Hardy]

Just back from holiday & had some wonderfully light reading in Christopher Hitchen's 'God is not Great'.  Jesus that man could articulate an argument. Anybody with an interest in this thread should make a point of reading it.

But doesn't Christopher Hitchens also argue that everyone's ideas are nothing more than the result of electro-chemical processes in our brains? That the universe is "matter and matter only"? That the transcendent laws of reason and logic (which are not electro-chemical processes in our brain matter) can't exist?

It might be an interesting read benny but the author himself argues that his own thoughts are nothing......

I'm not sure Hitchens has said that, exactly. I don't know if you're referring to his argument that a creating deity is not a necessary condition for the development of the human brain:

If our presence here, in our present form, is indeed random and contingent ... then at least we can consciously look forward to the further evolution of our poor brains, and to stupendous advances in medicine and life extension, derived from work on our elementary stem cells and umbilical-cord blood cells. . . . And all this will be further clarified if we are modest and patient enough to understand the building blocks of nature and the lowly stamp of our origins. No divine plan, let alone angelic intervention, is required. Everything works without that assumption.

[bennydorano]

Just back from holiday & had some wonderfully light reading in Christopher Hitchen's 'God is not Great'.  Jesus that man could articulate an argument. Anybody with an interest in this thread should make a point of reading it.

But doesn't Christopher Hitchens also argue that everyone's ideas are nothing more than the result of electro-chemical processes in our brains? That the universe is "matter and matter only"? That the transcendent laws of reason and logic (which are not electro-chemical processes in our brain matter) can't exist?

It might be an interesting read benny but the author himself argues that his own thoughts are nothing......

You're heading off on a bit of a tangent there, I can't recall that being discussed in this particular book. The post that caught my attention here was J70 referring / replying to how Athiesim didn't help prevent Nazi / Communist atrocities, Hitchen's has a full chapter in relation to that very topic.

[stew]

The difference between atheism and religion is that religion specifically demands violence against those who don't follow it. For all the talk about Islam being a 'religion of peace' the Hadith is littered with calls to kill the dreaded infidel. That's the difference between Stalin and the 9/11 hijackers. Stalin did his thing in the name of a political ideology, the Saudis with the knives did their thing as part of a Jihad and in exchange for sexual favors in the afterlife. If they were atheists they'd still be walking about and probably doing something useful. It was religion that poisoned their minds.

Jesus advocated peace and to love thy neighbor did he not?

Does what Stalin did to his own people make it better somehow because at least he did it in the case of of political ideology? He was an atheist, he believed in killing his people by the millions to build the infrastructure of his country whilst he and his cronies lived large and easy, all whilst watching their people die!

" If they were atheists they'd still be walking about and probably doing something useful. It was religion that poisoned their minds"
[/quote]

They were not poisoned by religion, they were poisoned and influenced by scum and are as susceptible to evil as atheists are.

If they were atheists they'd still be walking about and probably doing something useful.

Really, you know them, Once again you deal in vagaries and are devoid of fact!

[theskull1]

Religion and politics have always been an explosive mix, perhaps never more so than in the case of ISIS. But is the brutality that we've seen a result of violent ideology or a reflection of the darker side of human nature? Oksana is joined by Richard Dawkins, evolutionary biologist and controversial author, to discuss these issues

http://rt.com/shows/worlds-apart-oksana-boyko/190352-religion-isis-violencia-politics/

Very good discussion

[screenexile]

Is Religion not just used as an excuse for these atrocities when in reality struggles are usually to do with Money/Land/Power?!!