Are Michael O Neill and Gerry Armstong Off Their Heads??

[Main Street]

Were Linfield not subject to sectarian abuse from Ballymena fans,  something to the tune of "fenian scum"

[MW]

It suggests that playing for Doire Colmcille is self-evidently incompatible with going on to play international football for Northern Ireland (or even seeing oneself as a "Northerner"...? not a label I ascribe to anyway but still...). I know literally nothing about the club he mentions but it's not an entirely helpful impression he manages to give.

Also I don't know why you try to pretend it's a geographical reference - actually there are a fair few Northern Ireland fans in Derry/Londonderry.

Your statement suggests that members of DC might be angry with Joe because of their ref to them, my retort was that they wont. My basis for that is that DC are based in the Westbank of Derry which is anout 97% nationalist and where suporting NI is foreign to most people's tastes. They simply won't mind, you really are not in touch with grass roots nationalist opinions in some areas. And on the geographical thingy there are areas where catholics are much less likely to give support to NI than others, Derry would be one of them. Joe refers to this point himself in the article. I stand corrected though on saying NI supporters are like hen's teeth in Derry, I should have clarified that I meant that I was talking about amongst the Cathloic community.

Well if they're not concerned, they should be, in my opinion. Brolly is using "played for Doire Colmcille" as a "tell" showing that "this guy is self-evidently a strong nationalist, so much so that he will want never to play for the Northern Ireland football team". Saying he didn't think that anyone who had ever played for Doire Colmcille would represent NI at soccer would be bad enough, to wield "played for Doire Colmcille" as such a marker, apparently not needing explanation, is worse again. Put it this way, if someone used the name of the football club I play for, which is based in inner East Belfast, in this way to make statements like this I wouldn't be happy.

What is it, then, that Brolly thinks "played for Doire Colmcille" means, that, for example, "played for Donaghmore" does not? Anyway, given that the only reason Shane Duffy didn't win a cap for Northern Ireland back in 2009 was that Nigel Worthington left him on the bench in the friendly against Italy, Brolly's making a rather spurious point (and remember Duffy played for NI at all underage levels and at B international level too).

Now, you directed a longer post to me that I haven't replied to...

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

It suggests that playing for Doire Colmcille is self-evidently incompatible with going on to play international football for Northern Ireland (or even seeing oneself as a "Northerner"...? not a label I ascribe to anyway but still...). I know literally nothing about the club he mentions but it's not an entirely helpful impression he manages to give.

Also I don't know why you try to pretend it's a geographical reference - actually there are a fair few Northern Ireland fans in Derry/Londonderry.

Your statement suggests that members of DC might be angry with Joe because of their ref to them, my retort was that they wont. My basis for that is that DC are based in the Westbank of Derry which is anout 97% nationalist and where suporting NI is foreign to most people's tastes. They simply won't mind, you really are not in touch with grass roots nationalist opinions in some areas. And on the geographical thingy there are areas where catholics are much less likely to give support to NI than others, Derry would be one of them. Joe refers to this point himself in the article. I stand corrected though on saying NI supporters are like hen's teeth in Derry, I should have clarified that I meant that I was talking about amongst the Cathloic community.

Well if they're not concerned, they should be, in my opinion. Brolly is using "played for Doire Colmcille" as a "tell" showing that "this guy is self-evidently a strong nationalist, so much so that he will want never to play for the Northern Ireland football team". Saying he didn't think that anyone who had ever played for Doire Colmcille would represent NI at soccer would be bad enough, to wield "played for Doire Colmcille" as such a marker, apparently not needing explanation, is worse again. Put it this way, if someone used the name of the football club I play for, which is based in inner East Belfast, in this way to make statements like this I wouldn't be happy.

What is it, then, that Brolly thinks "played for Doire Colmcille" means, that, for example, "played for Donaghmore" does not? Anyway, given that the only reason Shane Duffy didn't win a cap for Northern Ireland back in 2009 was that Nigel Worthington left him on the bench in the friendly against Italy, Brolly's making a rather spurious point (and remember Duffy played for NI at all underage levels and at B international level too).

Now, you directed a longer post to me that I haven't replied to...

Quaking in my boots MW 

[MW]

Eh? just letting you know I'm going to get round to replying

[MW]

I have already said in another post that I have first hand experience of this outside the ground. I have also had second hand evidence from trusted sources. Your evidence is no stronger than that, you are just another second hand source to me also. So its a choice of who to believe and I have never met you so I choose to go with other people's evidence[/b]

You've been told by other people on this thread that it doesn't happen. I've been posting on here for nearly 8 years (Lordy) and I'd like to think that those who've had the misfortune to follow my posts over some of that duration would know that I'm not in the business of denying instances of sectarianism. "The Billy Boys" is not sung at Northern Ireland matches, and these "trusted sources" of yours, if they exist, are misleading you in a quite appalling way.

I can see you're struggling here so let me help you with a little soccer metaphor that's quite common in this context - "play the man, not the ball". I did not call you wierd, I called your version of events wierd. Similarly, I called your version of events fantasy.- That was personal enough to me

Well it's not personal whatsoever (ball, not man), and if you don't like an erroneous version of events being called out, you really shouldn't bother with a discussion forum

Au contraire, I enjoy being challenged - one of the reasons I enjoy posting on here. I don't like downright lies and silly personal comments.-Well stop making so many then

You really, really need to understand the difference between your views and statements criticised and making a personal comment, or you're never going to be able to engage is adult debate and discussion.

Can you point me to where you think I said it was acceptable?- You implied it

No, I did not. You (wrongly) inferred it.

Well, evidently not having seen this UTV Live report, can direct me to another source? One I can view/read?-  Cant at the minute, what am I UTV live archivist? Why would i make this up though[[/b]quote]

Why did you make up the stuff about "The Billy Boys" still being sung at NI games?

Pretty significant difference between what you say and what the BBC report says.- How?[/i]

For starters, the article doesn't actually directly link the PSNI to the Dublin authorities' decision.

As I said I started the thread to discuss the whole shindig[/i]

And I am calling you out on your "Billy Boys" fantasy.

And there are not Union Flags in "big numbers". Unlike Tricolours at Ireland rugby games, which you don't have the cojones to attempt a comment on.- Of course there is, wise up lad, its all over You Tube and other places. As for Tricolours at rugby matches thats because thats the National Team and Flag. The Union Jack is not the NI flag.[/b]

If you think single figures are "big numbers", maybe.

You've just revealed a hell of a lot with that comment, by the way. The Ireland rugby team represents the island of Ireland (32 counties) - the Tricolour is the national flag of the Republic of Ireland. Isn't it rather hypocritical all your talk about flags and the rest here, when you have apparently absolutely no issue with the many, many ROI flags (many times more than you'd see Union flags at a NI football match) at Ireland rugby games?

By the way, the Union flag actually is the official NI flag...but still, I'm not a fan of its unofficial use at NI matches.

It isn't sectarian. And again I ask - what's your position on a "neutral" anthem for Gaelic games.- I said perceived. If I thought a neutral anthem would encourage more Unionists to play, I woulnt be against it. How could you be?[/b]

Good - I hope you make those views known.

You seem genuine and passionate about NI Team so if you really want to crack this issue dont underestimate the perceived indimitation that Windsor holds for many. I am comparitively broad minded to many others and look at how difficult i am to convince [/b]

Two comments here: I think you're difficult to convince because you're believing what you want to believe. And challenging untruths like you have posted on here, and Mr Brolly had published in the Derry Journal, will actually help towards lowering the "perceived intimidation".

Hate to finish off on a bad note but what a feable excuse for being hateful[/i]

Lordy, that takes the biscuit. Saying your odd comments directed against me mde me think maybe you weren't the full shilling is "being hateful"? You've clearly been very, very lucky so far in your interpersonal relationships.

And weren't you the person who said to me..."A guy/girl attending frequenting GAA board but also admittting to attending NI matches during some of their most sectarian years. I would not just call this weird but symptomatic of a split personality", and also said..."WM or sorry MW. Got mixed up with your name, you know what its like to be mixed up obviously!". Again, you should watch how easy it is to come across as a hypocrite...

[MW]

The unofficial Northern Ireland supporters' anthem has echoed around Windsor Park since time immemorial.

Until the new Millennium, you could buy the CD in the Windsor Park shop. Now, the supporters' store has been cleansed of overtly sectarian material, but the culture lingers and the ghosts of the recent past still hover over the stadium.'

True enough, NI fans use to sing the Billy Boys at WP.

But that's not what he said, though, is it? He quotes the lyrics (if you can call them that) of the song in full at the start of his article and refers to it as "the unofficial Northern Ireland supporters anthem" - which is garbage. You simply will not hear it at a NI match, that thankfully having been stamped out over a decade ago now, and if any song could be called the "unofficial NI supporters anthem", it would be "We're Not Brazil", or perhaps "We'll Support You Evermore", or (until the rugby boys nicked it) "Stand up for the Ulstermen".

This cuts to the heart of what Brolly's article is - a pretty spiteful, bigoted, ill-informed piece which reflects poorly on him as being rather prejudiced and also reflects very poorly on the Derry Journal for promoting what pretty much amounts to hate speech.

BTW that "buy the CD" stuff seems to be pure fiction.

I understand that Brolly writes in the past tense when referring to singing of the Billy Boys at WP, and that understanding is confirmed (imo) when he states that ghosts of the pasts still hover over the stadium.
In Brolly's opinion and his perceptions, the ghosts of the past still hover over WP -  even if the Billy Boys is not sung any more.
That's Brolly's opinion,  that the 'old attitudes' still manifest themselves, for example in those petty dismissals of the validity of Irish nationality and what it means for those Irish nationals in NI.

Brolly isn't writing is the past tense though. He says The Billy Boys "has echoed around Windsor Park since time immemorial" - that means it's still current. If I say "Bill Clinton has been in office since 1993", I'm saying that he's still in office. If I say that Israel "has occupied Sinai since 1967", I'm saying they still occupy it.

And he refers to The Billy Boys as "the unofficial NI supporters anthem" (let's leave aside the fact that it was never any such thing) - if I refer to Bill Clinton in the context above as "the President of the United States", I imply that he's still the President. If I refer to Israel as "the occupying military power in the Sinai", I mean that they are still the occupying power. Unless they statements are bounded by an end date ("until 2001/1982") or clearly caveated ("the ex-President/former occupying power"), they're not past tense at all.

[saffron sam2]

The point below was taken from a post on the OWC website:

"There were more Catholic players playing for Linfield last Saturday, and more Catholic players playing for Northern Ireland in their last International match than the total number of Protestants that have represented Derry GAA at senior level since partition".

Not sure if this has been verified, but if true it is an interesting point

Interesting only in that it highlights the mindset of many Protestants living in Derry. It is hardly surprising that people who won't spend their money in Catholic-owned shops, who would sell land privately to a co-religionist for considerably less than a Catholic neighbour would have been willing to pay for it and who won't set foot inside a Catholic church even to attend a neighbour's funeral, are not prepared to socialise and play sports with their Catholic neighbours on the Holy Sabbath. IMO, it is the fear of isolation and exclusion from their Protestant neighbours that leads to this, not any moral high ground or direct objections to the GAA.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Why not? They seem to have a committee for most other things. Jarlath Burns sits on a couple of them in fact...
http://ulster.gaa.ie/council/committees/
Of course, he's not a GAA official, Lord no.

Who claimed he is not an official?  What is your point?

He is a teacher too!  Must his school/department also issue a statement vis-a-vis his support of Marty's presidential campaign?

Ditto Brolly and his occupation as a barrister.  Should we expect the law library to make known their formal position on eligibility rules for international football.

Quite frankly, you are talking patent nonsense here.  I am a GAA member and I am quite happy that the GAA don't have a formal position on said rules or on the candidacy of anyone running for president.  It's as it should be.  Individual members can hold their views and good luck to them.

/Jim.

[Main Street]

The unofficial Northern Ireland supporters' anthem has echoed around Windsor Park since time immemorial.

Until the new Millennium, you could buy the CD in the Windsor Park shop. Now, the supporters' store has been cleansed of overtly sectarian material, but the culture lingers and the ghosts of the recent past still hover over the stadium.'

True enough, NI fans use to sing the Billy Boys at WP.

But that's not what he said, though, is it? He quotes the lyrics (if you can call them that) of the song in full at the start of his article and refers to it as "the unofficial Northern Ireland supporters anthem" - which is garbage. You simply will not hear it at a NI match, that thankfully having been stamped out over a decade ago now, and if any song could be called the "unofficial NI supporters anthem", it would be "We're Not Brazil", or perhaps "We'll Support You Evermore", or (until the rugby boys nicked it) "Stand up for the Ulstermen".

This cuts to the heart of what Brolly's article is - a pretty spiteful, bigoted, ill-informed piece which reflects poorly on him as being rather prejudiced and also reflects very poorly on the Derry Journal for promoting what pretty much amounts to hate speech.

BTW that "buy the CD" stuff seems to be pure fiction.

I understand that Brolly writes in the past tense when referring to singing of the Billy Boys at WP, and that understanding is confirmed (imo) when he states that ghosts of the pasts still hover over the stadium.
In Brolly's opinion and his perceptions, the ghosts of the past still hover over WP -  even if the Billy Boys is not sung any more.
That's Brolly's opinion,  that the 'old attitudes' still manifest themselves, for example in those petty dismissals of the validity of Irish nationality and what it means for those Irish nationals in NI.

Brolly isn't writing is the past tense though. He says The Billy Boys "has echoed around Windsor Park since time immemorial" - that means it's still current. If I say "Bill Clinton has been in office since 1993", I'm saying that he's still in office. If I say that Israel "has occupied Sinai since 1967", I'm saying they still occupy it.

And he refers to The Billy Boys as "the unofficial NI supporters anthem" (let's leave aside the fact that it was never any such thing) - if I refer to Bill Clinton in the context above as "the President of the United States", I imply that he's still the President. If I refer to Israel as "the occupying military power in the Sinai", I mean that they are still the occupying power. Unless they statements are bounded by an end date ("until 2001/1982") or clearly caveated ("the ex-President/former occupying power"), they're not past tense at all.

I understood his past tense was defined in the line 'the ghosts of the past still hover over WP'

But I agree in general with your point because even if Brolly was referring to the past, he is far from clear and much of that paraphenalia has been dropped from the WP repetoire ages ago.
And it does nobody any good to be repeating these things from the past, time and time again, as if it's a reflection of current day.  No honest cause is served by painting false images of the NI support.
Brolly is a soliciter and should know better how to compose the structure of a debate based on facts and ideology.

However the ghosts of the past still hover, as I referred to earlier in this thread could be evidenced in the Ni fans representatives on Wendy's morning radio show, where  the old supremacy views bares its teeth after a little 'prodding'. And these were the reps of the NI fans. Okay, I might make an allowance for emotion getting ahead of rational argument but the more they open their mouths the more you might get the impression that the old bigotry is just under the new suit.

[Ulick]

The point below was taken from a post on the OWC website:

"There were more Catholic players playing for Linfield last Saturday, and more Catholic players playing for Northern Ireland in their last International match than the total number of Protestants that have represented Derry GAA at senior level since partition".

Not sure if this has been verified, but if true it is an interesting point

What's interesting about it? Some little loyalists over on OWC drag religion into a debate about national identity, quelle surprise... If anything it just strengthens Bolly's case, in that you still don't get it...

[MW]

Aye, Ulick, right enough Brolly didn't mention religion did he?

"No Catholic would dare set foot in them"

"first Ulster-born Catholic in nearly 50 years"

"trying to recruit Northern Irish Catholics who have previously rejected the notion of playing for the North"

"the largely protestant Belfast Telegraph"

Yes it was clearly those evil loyalists on OWC who introduced religion into this reasoned debate on identity from Brolly.

I wonder, how many times do you have to be shown to be so spectacularly wrong before you start to question your "themmuns bad, ussuns good" worldview that leads you to jump in feet first with these kind of comments?

[Applesisapples]

In the course of this thread I've already named 2, namely Brolly and Burns. How many do you want? These two may or may not hold an official post within the organisation, but in many ways they are the public face of the GAA. They are broadcasters and journalists who talk about the GAA on television and at public functions. They are both columnists for 'Gaelic Life'. So far, I've yet to hear of the GAA publicly distancing itself from their comments. When Burns went on a pro IRA rant on behalf of MMcG, I didn't hear any GAA 'official' step forward and say that he wasn't speaking on behalf of the organisation. Until I do, I'll assume his comments meet with general approval within the organisation. Ditto Brolly's anti NI rant.

This thread has a lot of nonsense on both sides of the argument but this rubbish takes the biscuit.  The GAA are responsible for anything  "broadcasters and journalists who talk about the GAA on television and at public functions" and you regard what they say as official views of the GAA?   Why in the name of all that is holy would the GAA have and official view on eligibility rules for international soccer?

Can you qualify that or outline how it might work? 

Should the GAA have a committee to monitor all broadcasters and journalists? They can add them to a list if the "talk about the GAA on television or at public functions" then the comittee would be responsible  to monitor their views on other issues (maybe a further comittee to decide the issues that are important like eligibility rules for international soccer teams).   Once a member of the list gives a view on said issues then they would report to Central Council who would decide if the odds are at variance with the official position of the GAA and issues a statement "distancing the GAA" from the comments.

/Jim.

Why not? They seem to have a committee for most other things. Jarlath Burns sits on a couple of them in fact...
http://ulster.gaa.ie/council/committees/
Of course, he's not a GAA official, Lord no.

Myles you are beyond tedious. Any GAA Official who volunteers on a committee is entitled to have and express private preferences in terms of religion, politics and even on GAA policy.

[Ulick]

I wonder, how many times do you have to be shown to be so spectacularly wrong before you start to question your "themmuns bad, ussuns good" worldview that leads you to jump in feet first with these kind of comments?

I didn't say he didn't mention it, but religion is only a small part of a persons national identity, but you t**ts over there haven't the wit or cop-on to see that - that was part of the point Brolly was making. Anne-Marie Smyth has her head cut off in a Glentoran supporters club because she was a 'Catholic', Linfield or whoever never recruited players because they were 'Catholic' etc... Now you think that by getting more 'Catholics' involved people from the 'Catholic community' actually give a fcuk - they don't, because as you should have noticed through your time on this Board there's no such thing as a 'Catholic community' or at least if there is it doesn't bear any correlation to what OWC and their knuckle-dragging loyalist fellow travellers imagine it is.

As Brolly says at the end: "Some follow the green, white and gold. Some the red, white and blue. It is far more than a flag."

and it's certainly more than a religion...

[MW]

Who are "you t**ts over there"? When you say "you", throughout this piece, are you ascribing views to me? Themmuns all think alike seems to be your default position.

And going by your tone it seems a lot like you don't like your downright stupid Pavlovian responses being called out - well, tough. You're going to have to get used to it.

Brolly's article was a pretty vicious tribalist piece that was chock-full of religious labels "largely Protestant Belfast Telegraph", "Ulster-born Catholic", "Northern Irish Catholics" (not one mention of the words nationalist or unionist) - but nooo, Brolly was actually just talking about national identity, it was the evil loyalists over at OWC who brought religion into it by questioning Brolly's own logic. Because, well, Brolly couldn't be in the wrong, because he's one if us, isn't he? Whereas themmuns, well they're a right shower of bastards, aren't they? It's actually bloody hilarious watching you do it, because you seem to be about as aware of your Pavlovian prejudice as a fish is of being underwater.

You're a master of psychological projection - so you project Brolly's faults onto themmuns. Witness also the "Catholic community" stuff, while simultaneously ascribing views to me and locating me on a website I don't belong to (not to mention the childish name-calling attached to this - "you t**ts") all based on your own assumptions of how themmuns think.

Sorry to have to break it to you, Ulick, but you are a "knuckle-dragger".

[Ulick]

Who are "you t**ts over there"? When you say "you", throughout this piece, are you ascribing views to me? Themmuns all think alike seems to be your default position.

Obviously OWC as michealg referred to them in his post which I responded, to which you replied.   

Brolly's article was a pretty vicious tribalist piece that was chock-full of religious labels "largely Protestant Belfast Telegraph", "Ulster-born Catholic", "Northern Irish Catholics" (not one mention of the words nationalist or unionist) - but nooo, Brolly was actually just talking about national identity, it was the evil loyalists over at OWC who brought religion into it by questioning Brolly's own logic. Because, well, Brolly couldn't be in the wrong, because he's one if us, isn't he? Whereas themmuns, well they're a right shower of b**tards, aren't they? It's actually bloody hilarious watching you do it, because you seem to be about as aware of your Pavlovian prejudice as a fish is of being underwater.

You're a master of psychological projection - so you project Brolly's faults onto themmuns. Witness also the "Catholic community" stuff, while simultaneously ascribing views to me and locating me on a website I don't belong to (not to mention the childish name-calling attached to this - "you t**ts") all based on your own assumptions of how themmuns think.

Sorry to have to break it to you, Ulick, but you are a "knuckle-dragger".

Bollocks...