Are Michael O Neill and Gerry Armstong Off Their Heads??

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

££££££ playing international football?? 

Good Man Sammy- thon boy doesnt know he is talking about, what have their mothers and fathers got to do with it either?

Aye probably very little influence, know any of these families do you??   

Yes- Gibson's/Mc Cleans- good people.

[Last Man]

££££££ playing international football?? 

Good Man Sammy- thon boy doesnt know he is talking about, what have their mothers and fathers got to do with it either?

Aye probably very little influence, know any of these families do you??   

Yes- Gibson's/Mc Cleans- good people.

OK I see my point is difficult to grasp  , so here goes again> Both sets of parents were happy enough to send wee Darren and James or better still take them up to Windsor park to raise their "stock" in the pro football market so once again can we park up this notion about national identity and soccer players....Their nose follows the money and whatever they say to appease their short memory neighbours doesn't cut it with me. Just accept them for what they are and leave it at that.

[Applesisapples]

We can argue this as much as we like. Bottom line is that the Union Flags, Ulster Flags,GSTQ and the "No surrenders" belted out during the anthem are problems that are hard for most Nationalists to get over, the fact that NI claims to be a country is another issue. Some catholics/nationalists can look past these to go to Windsor and to play for NI. Some can't and would rather be peripheral to the ROI squad than have a career with NI and others will choose to play for NI because of the opportunities it provides and can ignore the loyalist trappings. I suppose it comes down to whether or not your nationalist principles are deeply enough held and I personally have no affection for or affinity ro the NI team, but others do.

[Main Street]

Thats not the bottom line. The past obviously has some influence. The IFA? God knows what a bunch of cretins they are.
Even if GSTQ was dropped (never) and the few cries of no surrender silenced, there would be little difference.
The stronger factor than all that is sentiment and in general, nationalist sentiment does not identify with the IFA.
Plenty of players have come from a nationalist background but that does not make any inroads into the fundamental sentiment.
I listened to the NI fans representatives  on a radio show recently where they talked about 'defections' and blustered on about them playing for 'another country'. And when the offensiveness of their terminology was pointed out to them, they still continued with their jargon. Imo, it was quite a bizarre display of blind arrogance, while they were behaving themselves in order to win hearts and minds. What happens when they can express themselves freely

[MW]

Weird? A guy/girl attending frequenting GAA board but also admittting to attending NI matches during some of their most sectarian years. I would not just call this weird but symptomatic of a split personality.

So you're backing off from your whole "Billy Boys" claim, but instead of having the balls to admit it, your resorting to childish personal abuse. Not exactly a mark of mature debate, eh?

From back in the 1990s, from my mid-teens on, I actually tried to do something about the sectarianism displayed by a minority at NI games. Other fans contributed more and successful efforts were made. Much later than this, I discovered this board thanks to a somewhat unhinged poster by the name of Tony Fearon who was making all sorts of ludicrous allegations about the NI support and team. Can you see the connection?

Lets talk about some FACTS since 1989.

Neil Lennon forced to leave NI set up because of sectarian abuse from NI fans, must be OK though because at least according to you they dont sing Billy Boys anymore- FACT

That's not a fact. It's a lie. Lennon quit international football due to a death threat someone phoned in to UTV. The home match prior to this, he received no abuse. The home match before that again, he was booed by 150-200 people in a crowd of 7000 due to the club he played for. I actually campaigned strongly on this at the time, even designed a fanzine cover based on the issue in support of Lennon and stood selling it outside Winsdor. In fact the night of the death threat I actually stayed behind a fair bit after the match to sing "there's only one Neil Lennon".

This was all over a decade ago - exactly what point are you making with regards to 2011 or 2012 by bringing it up?

UDA element within the crowd-FACT

What on earth does this mean? Where are you getting this "fact" from?

Match between NI and ROI supporters called off in 2011 because of PSNI fears of sectarian trouble after NI fan's disgraceful sectarian behaviour against Scotland-FACT

Actually, that's another lie.

Windsor Park draped in Union Jacks-FACT

What has this to do with sectarian singing? What does "draped in Union Jacks" mean - how many are you thinking of here? There's a hell of a lot more Tricolours at Ireland rugby matches - do you complain about them? Do you think them to sectarianism?

GSTQ played and sang with GUSTO instead of something more neutral-FACT

Again, what is the link to sectarianism? And what would constitute an acceptable volume for singing GSTQ? What's your position on a "neutral" anthem for Gaelic games? I actually have been arguing the case for a NI-specific anthem for NI matches since the 1990s, by the way.

Mc Clean and other Catholics will continue to declare for the ROI because of years of mistreatment from IFA-FACT

This doesn't strike me as much of a "fact" either. You can't see into the mind of McClean or any other player, and the public statements from the likes of McClean, Duffy, etc, indicate that they grew up supporting the ROI and always wanted to play for them. Plenty of people on this very thread seem to think it's to do with national identity and allegiance rather than some crude religious marker. And if you want to use the crude religious marker, plenty of "Catholics" do play for NI and I would say will continue to do so.

All the above is objective, factual and devoid of any fantasy WM or sorry MW. Got mixed up with your name, you know what its like to be mixed up obviously!

Hmm. Going from this comment I think I've made the mistake of engaging with someone who isn't quite the full shilling. It's got a certain nonsensical quality to it, which, like some of your other comments, leaves me wondering if I need the services of a translator.

[MW]

No we won't "agree to disagree", because I've been going to NI matches since 1989 and am dealing in facts, whereas you're dealing in pure fantasy.

There is such a thing as objective reality, and your weird fantasy version simply does not bear the same validity.

What's windsor park like now then? Do you see much sectarianism?

I don't, actually.

[theskull1]

I hate it when posters choose to move on in a debate rather than acknowledge that they could be wrong about statements they have made beforehand.

[HiMucker]

It's got feck all to do with political allegiances. Playing for NI Schoolboys gives young lads a shop window for the bigger Premiership Clubs where they can't get easily recognised by the Free State. Once they are at a decent club and have proven themselves as decent players they will play for whichever team is the more successful at that point in time.

If NI were performing consistently better than the Republic you can bet your ass Gibson and the likes would play for them. If Gibson were good enough to play for England and was qualified for both England and Ireland I would take a fair bet which team he would play for!

Knowing Gibsons family you are dead wrong.

[HiMucker]

Don't really see Windsor Pk as the main sticking point. The song, flag and "Billy Boys" chanting would be worse IMO.

The "Billy Boys" would indeed be worse. But if you're suggesting you'd hear that at Windsor if you went to a NI match, you're wide of the mark.

Basically your talking dung.  There is still a fair bit of sectarian chanting going on at N Ireland matches which would include the billy boys song.

Met a group of fellas from the shankill on holidays.  Sound lads.  All supported Norn Ireland.  All but one (who I have to say was the smarter of the group)  said they would support England if the two teams played each other.  Tells you a fair bit about the mind set.

[HiMucker]

No we won't "agree to disagree", because I've been going to NI matches since 1989 and am dealing in facts, whereas you're dealing in pure fantasy.

There is such a thing as objective reality, and your weird fantasy version simply does not bear the same validity.

In the last five years, what is the most sectarian things you have heard chanted, said or sung at an N Ireland game?

[HiMucker]

Don't really see Windsor Pk as the main sticking point. The song, flag and "Billy Boys" chanting would be worse IMO.

The "Billy Boys" would indeed be worse. But if you're suggesting you'd hear that at Windsor if you went to a NI match, you're wide of the mark.

Basically your talking dung.  There is still a fair bit of sectarian chanting going on at N Ireland matches which would include the billy boys song.

To be fair, I have been to see them twice in Windsor (about 2 years ago now) and I didn't hear the Billy Boys either time.

I am Ulster 'til I die though.

Truthfully though, was there any other elementS in the last two years when you went, that would influence nationalists not to play or support them? 

[nifan]

There is still a fair bit of sectarian chanting going on at N Ireland matches which would include the billy boys song.

HiMucker - I can understand why nationalists might choose not to play.
But the above is just wrong - where do you get your information?

[HiMucker]

There is still a fair bit of sectarian chanting going on at N Ireland matches which would include the billy boys song.

HiMucker - I can understand why nationalists might choose not to play.
But the above is just wrong - where do you get your information?

To be fair I cant comment for sure about chanting relating to the last few years.   But I have encountered many a N Ireland fan at airports, abroad or in bars en route to games (in the last few years) and I would have doubted they toned it down once they got in the ground.  Maybe they were just drowned out by the majority of decent supporters.  I also have to add that I encontered more decent supporters in that time also.  Im sorry if that paints an unfair image, but negative experiences tend to outway normal ones.

[Leo]

Took my young  son to a friendly match in Windsor round about 1981 or so against Austria.
The sectarian anti-Catholic chanting was nonstop and I had to leave. This was Austria and we got the full venomous repertoire!!!
I have never been back even when I got a VIP invite for a testimonial game, and my son has grown up with no affinity for the NI team. If he was able to kick a paper bag he would have opted for the Republic. I can make no comment on how things might  have improved since but this was one experience which shaped our opinion and makes it easy for me to understand why others might elect the same way.

[Orior]

I have to admit I went to Windsor Park to see NI play back in the early 80's, against the Republic.

The IFA had decided not to play the Soldiers Song, in case it upset the locals. They're easy upset.

Anyway, after GSTQ had finished one of my mates said to guys in my group "what about the other one!"

And a man behind me said "Fcuk the other one"