americas problem with communism?

[Eamonnca1]

all true eamon except i'd point out to you that the 'bric' countries are where the haves are making a killing out of the have nots. and whats happening is that instead of having 'poor countries' what capitalism is bringing is poor people in every country as the gap between rich and poor increases. what unregulated markets have brought is boom then bust.. boom then bust and each time the rich get richer and the small man gets edged out. the last american president who tried to rest power in america from the banks was assassinated. what followed was the 'roaring twenties' closely followed by the great depression.
    if you are right about the markets then why are the irish people up to their necks in debt paying of the debts of private individuals/banks? why if they have shown poor judgment in business are they not allowed to fail. the answer can only be corruption and cronyism since it is not pure capitalism

I never said that 100% unregulated markets are the answer. I've always been of the view that markets are reasonably good at producing wealth, not so good at distributing wealth, and in cases where the will of the market does not coincide with the public interest then it's okay for government to step in and get regulating.

I'm not sure what you mean by the BRICs making a killing out of the have-nots.

[Eamonnca1]

To answer the main question there was a bit of paranoia about Communism in the 60s.  There was a fear that the idea could leak across borders and take root in America, so those who were opposed to it sought to vilify it by any means necessary and indulge in with-hunts like the McCarthy hearings.

The invasion of sovereign states was out of fear that the Communist system was so abhorrent that it had to be stopped from spreading around the world.  I'm just guessing here, but WWII would still have been a recent memory, so the spread of fascism in Europe was a very real memory.  There would have been the fear that communism and the far left would gain popular support in the same way that fascism and the far right had only a few decades before.  Hence the policy of "containment".

[Ulick]

As I said earlier, the problem with communism and contrary to popular belief it has never been tried. That so many people seem to think that communist states have existed display nothing more than complete ignorance of what it is or entails.

I was in Russia in 1990. I can assure you that they were trying it then. I'm well aware of what it entails, thank you very much.

Russia was never a Communist country. That you are using it as an example in your argument against communism shows you haven't a foggy notion of what it entails.

[LondonCamanachd]

I'm wondering what the problem is? over the last 70 years half the worlds population have lived under communism and for most part have got along equally as well as us here in the "free west".

You've not talked to much of that population, have you?

[thewobbler]

Ulick, instead of coming across as snidey, why don't you just tell us what 'real communism' is?

[lawnseed]

I'm wondering what the problem is? over the last 70 years half the worlds population have lived under communism and for most part have got along equally as well as us here in the "free west".

You've not talked to much of that population, have you?

what you want to hear is that these countries were horrible places? places where parents have to pull their kids out of bed at 5am and leave them in creches then work like slaves til dark then take their kids home and put them in bed week in week out.. places where when the kids grow up they'll have to finish paying the parents mortgage before they have one of their own. places where only the rich have access to proper medical care, places where an elite gather all the wealth and maintain control of their political stooges manipulating them so as to avoid taxes and the rule of law. places where the state broadcaster/print media brainwash the population. places where the youth yearn to leave their homeland to find work escaping years of austerity. places far away? i suggest to you that the population of those countries were as well off as s.irish people are now despite seventy years of "freedom".

[LondonCamanachd]

I'm wondering what the problem is? over the last 70 years half the worlds population have lived under communism and for most part have got along equally as well as us here in the "free west".

You've not talked to much of that population, have you?

what you want to hear is that these countries were horrible places? places where parents have to pull their kids out of bed at 5am and leave them in creches then work like slaves til dark then take their kids home and put them in bed week in week out.. places where when the kids grow up they'll have to finish paying the parents mortgage before they have one of their own. places where only the rich have access to proper medical care, places where an elite gather all the wealth and maintain control of their political stooges manipulating them so as to avoid taxes and the rule of law. places where the state broadcaster/print media brainwash the population. places where the youth yearn to leave their homeland to find work escaping years of austerity. places far away? i suggest to you that the population of those countries were as well off as s.irish people are now despite seventy years of "freedom".

I don't have to hear it from you - I used to live in Leipzig.  i heard it from my neighbours and colleagues exactly as you describe, less the mortgages.  And replace the rich with the party elite.

Instead they had no rights to passports or external travel, no chance to emigrate, no freedom of speech, association or action, barely any freedom of thought.

[lawnseed]

all true eamon except i'd point out to you that the 'bric' countries are where the haves are making a killing out of the have nots. and whats happening is that instead of having 'poor countries' what capitalism is bringing is poor people in every country as the gap between rich and poor increases. what unregulated markets have brought is boom then bust.. boom then bust and each time the rich get richer and the small man gets edged out. the last american president who tried to rest power in america from the banks was assassinated. what followed was the 'roaring twenties' closely followed by the great depression.
    if you are right about the markets then why are the irish people up to their necks in debt paying of the debts of private individuals/banks? why if they have shown poor judgment in business are they not allowed to fail. the answer can only be corruption and cronyism since it is not pure capitalism

I never said that 100% unregulated markets are the answer. I've always been of the view that markets are reasonably good at producing wealth, not so good at distributing wealth, and in cases where the will of the market does not coincide with the public interest then it's okay for government to step in and get regulating.

I'm not sure what you mean by the BRICs making a killing out of the have-nots.

what i refer to is that the countries known as bric are low wage economies were western companies have set up to make a killing out of cheap labour, then selling the same product to the numpty western consumer. infact through time draining these western countries of jobs and wealth while flouting laws on child labour, health and safety and pollution. how sustainable is that

[lawnseed]

I'm wondering what the problem is? over the last 70 years half the worlds population have lived under communism and for most part have got along equally as well as us here in the "free west".

You've not talked to much of that population, have you?

what you want to hear is that these countries were horrible places? places where parents have to pull their kids out of bed at 5am and leave them in creches then work like slaves til dark then take their kids home and put them in bed week in week out.. places where when the kids grow up they'll have to finish paying the parents mortgage before they have one of their own. places where only the rich have access to proper medical care, places where an elite gather all the wealth and maintain control of their political stooges manipulating them so as to avoid taxes and the rule of law. places where the state broadcaster/print media brainwash the population. places where the youth yearn to leave their homeland to find work escaping years of austerity. places far away? i suggest to you that the population of those countries were as well off as s.irish people are now despite seventy years of "freedom".

I don't have to hear it from you - I used to live in Leipzig.  i heard it from my neighbours and colleagues exactly as you describe, less the mortgages.  And replace the rich with the party elite.

Instead they had no rights to passports or external travel, no chance to emigrate, no freedom of speech, association or action, barely any freedom of thought.

i refer you to the lone protesrter who stood infront of a irish government ministers car, a donegal man living in dublin who was beaten to a pulp, hospitalised then prosecuted for protesting. and to the gardai and army busy training for "crowd control" at dundalk race course. i further suggest that this country is glad that its youth are emmigrating because they cant afford them

[Tony Baloney]

I'm wondering what the problem is? over the last 70 years half the worlds population have lived under communism and for most part have got along equally as well as us here in the "free west".

You've not talked to much of that population, have you?

what you want to hear is that these countries were horrible places? places where parents have to pull their kids out of bed at 5am and leave them in creches then work like slaves til dark then take their kids home and put them in bed week in week out.. places where when the kids grow up they'll have to finish paying the parents mortgage before they have one of their own. places where only the rich have access to proper medical care, places where an elite gather all the wealth and maintain control of their political stooges manipulating them so as to avoid taxes and the rule of law. places where the state broadcaster/print media brainwash the population. places where the youth yearn to leave their homeland to find work escaping years of austerity. places far away? i suggest to you that the population of those countries were as well off as s.irish people are now despite seventy years of "freedom".

Or like these other Socialist/Workers utopia you could have millions working in fields all day to scrape the equivalent of a dollar a day to survive on whilst the billionaire Party elite live a life of (Western) decadence behind closed doors. When the people decide they've had enough they dont have the ballot box to make changes. When they try alternative means they are crushed by regimes with human rights records amongst the worst on earth. Power to the people.

[Ulick]

Ulick, instead of coming across as snidey, why don't you just tell us what 'real communism' is?

Wobbler I've had this debate on here before and I just find the ignorance of the concept tiresome. The Internet is full of wonderful informative resources nowadays, if someone wants to seriously debate a topic the least they could do is firstly go off and familiarize themselves with it before compounding the ignorance. Here's a good start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

To say that Russia or the Soviet Union was communist is as nonsensical to saying NI is a republic because Sinn Féin are in government.

[Ulick]

I don't have to hear it from you - I used to live in Leipzig.  i heard it from my neighbours and colleagues exactly as you describe, less the mortgages.  And replace the rich with the party elite.

Instead they had no rights to passports or external travel, no chance to emigrate, no freedom of speech, association or action, barely any freedom of thought.

What makes you think any of those are intrinsic to communism? Zimbabwe could be said to have all of those features but no one claims it to be communist or indeed associates capitalism with those things because Zimbabwe is capitalist.

[lawnseed]

google.. 'history of us military interventions since 1890' interesting reading

[LondonCamanachd]

I don't have to hear it from you - I used to live in Leipzig.  i heard it from my neighbours and colleagues exactly as you describe, less the mortgages.  And replace the rich with the party elite.

Instead they had no rights to passports or external travel, no chance to emigrate, no freedom of speech, association or action, barely any freedom of thought.

What makes you think any of those are intrinsic to communism? Zimbabwe could be said to have all of those features but no one claims it to be communist or indeed associates capitalism with those things because Zimbabwe is capitalist.

Not at all, nor even that the East German regime was "pure communist".

i was arguing that Lawnseed's point that those who have lived under communism have had an equal quality of life to those in Western Europe.  Which is categorically horsesh*te, in every possible way.

[lawnseed]

I don't have to hear it from you - I used to live in Leipzig.  i heard it from my neighbours and colleagues exactly as you describe, less the mortgages.  And replace the rich with the party elite.

Instead they had no rights to passports or external travel, no chance to emigrate, no freedom of speech, association or action, barely any freedom of thought.

What makes you think any of those are intrinsic to communism? Zimbabwe could be said to have all of those features but no one claims it to be communist or indeed associates capitalism with those things because Zimbabwe is capitalist.

Not at all, nor even that the East German regime was "pure communist".

i was arguing that Lawnseed's point that those who have lived under communism have had an equal quality of life to those in Western Europe.  Which is categorically horsesh*te, in every possible way.

so the irish government bending over at every opportunity is nothing like living in satelite soviet state? as for freedom of speech.. this forum is as near as you'll get to it and even here the wrong type of freedom could land you in court. i too worked in east germany just after the wall came down, what i found was that the poeple were not that badly off, just envious of what they perceived to be the better life in west germany. getting coke and mcdonalds isnt everything just ask the millions of people in those bric countries who have developed type 2 diabetes since exposure to our 'better' western diet