The Blue Wave

[fearglasmor]

Despite team costs of €2m Dublin still manage to turn a surplus of €92k, while all around them neighbouring counties lie decimated by deficits.
And yet, like Oliver Twist, they think they should have some more.

I must be missing something.     

[heffo]

Despite team costs of €2m Dublin still manage to turn a surplus of €92k, while all around them neighbouring counties lie decimated by deficits.
And yet, like Oliver Twist, they think they should have some more.

I must be missing something.     

So good management of finances, vigorously pursuing sponsorship and putting firm plans in place to increase the playing numbers of the GAA (Which is one of our core principles) is now a flaw not a virture?

Good lord.

[JHume]

Hardly a flaw Heffo, but you don't need provincial status and a ball of extra money.

As your accounts shows.

Spread the wealth man, and give some to the impoverished wenches in Kildare!

PS Donegal spent €600k on preparing teams. Annual surplus on county activities was €100,000.

[Zulu]

To be fair I think Dublin are dead right to pursue every penny they can. There are plenty of areas in Dublin GAA free zones and Dublin need as much as they can get to develop and promote the games there. The rest of us need to do the same as dublin and not expect them to spark up a fag and wait around for the rest of us to catch up.

You only have to look at Waterford or Mayo to see how not to do things.

[fearglasmor]

Despite team costs of €2m Dublin still manage to turn a surplus of €92k, while all around them neighbouring counties lie decimated by deficits.
And yet, like Oliver Twist, they think they should have some more.

I must be missing something.     

So good management of finances, vigorously pursuing sponsorship and putting firm plans in place to increase the playing numbers of the GAA (Which is one of our core principles) is now a flaw not a virture?

Good lord.

I think its great that Dublin have managed their affairs so well and it would be great if other counties could do the same. I dont even see anything wrong with Dublin pushing the blue wave agenda. Its in their self interest. But I dont think giving Dublin special status is the right way to go when they have so much more resources on their doorstep than any other county. If Dublins objective is to have the GAA (the other 31 counties) support their efforts to maximise the playing pool in its population then they have to be prepared to consider a time when they field more than one intercounty team. Maybe they should be following their county council boundaries.

Another odd statement from Costelloe was the notion that any player transferring into a Dublin club would have to declare for Dublin. A truly warped notion on how to stop players  transferring into Dublin clubs. Not happy with maximising their own playing pool Costelloe wants to steal other counties resources too. 

[Captain Obvious]

When you see the huge pick & surplus turn over it's will be incredibly difficult for others to beat the Dubs in the years ahead.

[Lone Shark]

Lads the issue of being able to play football and hurling in most places on the globe is one of the most fundamental and crucial aspects of the GAA as a social association and what Costello said runs contrary to that completely.

If the problem is certain clubs with a big bag of money going recruiting, then deal with that problem specifically - don't penalise all country footballers, many of whom are just playing football in Dublin because that's where they live and work. In many of these cases these young men are in debt or working for very small wages and while travelling home for county football training is fine because they get expenses, or because there are other players in Dublin travelling too, travelling home for club games and training is not realistic. They may have hopes of transferring back home in time, when they can move their work down there or get through difficult training periods, and either way all clubs should be open to anyone who wants to train and play with them.

I'd agree with the general view that Dublin should be either a county or a province in GAA terms and they shouldn't be allowed pick the best of both worlds. Of course they have a lot of work to do on development in certain areas, but I'd imagine the point that Fearglasmor was driving at was that already, they spend three times more than some other counties on preparing county teams. Perhaps that's money that they should be earmarking for developing the game in blackspots, particularly seeing as it should cost less to run Dublin than most other counties, on a month for month basis. After all, how many of the Dublin panel have to be re-imbursed for travelling a 150 mile round trip to training?

Rather than demanding more of the GAA generally, who have to be cognisant of the fact that a lot of counties don't have the same revenue generating potential as Dublin, I think Costello would do well to realise that while of course it's admirable that they should push on as a county and drive home their success, it's not a justification for more funds from central pots - if anything it's the opposite.

[heffo]

Everyone seems to have missed the point here.

1. Costello's transfer bye-law proposal - the ordinary 'culchie teacher' here won't be affected - if he's living in Dublin, working in Dublin and wants to put down roots then fine let him transfer, but he has to officially 'declare' for Dublin - no problem, he's Senior not IC standard so he transfers, plays away and thats the end of that.

2. Your Conor Mortimers, Colm Parkinson's, Begley's etc who suddenly find themselves living in a city centre penthouse with a 'job' provided by their new club - this is what he's addressing - if they have to declare for Dublin then the likelyhood is they won't transfer. Some previous players who've transferred to Dublin in the past ten years have been getting paid by their county on the side, they won't be paid by Dublin and it's unlikely they'd be selected anyway. Plenty of other players playing in Dublin over the last 15 years have openly made themselves available and weren't selected.

3. Funding - playing numbers at Juvenile level are way up again - their argument is that they should be funded appropriately as they're promoting the association.

[Lone Shark]

Everyone seems to have missed the point here.

1. Costello's transfer bye-law proposal - the ordinary 'culchie teacher' here won't be affected - if he's living in Dublin, working in Dublin and wants to put down roots then fine let him transfer, but he has to officially 'declare' for Dublin - no problem, he's Senior not IC standard so he transfers, plays away and thats the end of that.

2. Your Conor Mortimers, Colm Parkinson's, Begley's etc who suddenly find themselves living in a city centre penthouse with a 'job' provided by their new club - this is what he's addressing - if they have to declare for Dublin then the likelyhood is they won't transfer. Some previous players who've transferred to Dublin in the past ten years have been getting paid by their county on the side, they won't be paid by Dublin and it's unlikely they'd be selected anyway. Plenty of other players playing in Dublin over the last 15 years have openly made themselves available and weren't selected.

3. Funding - playing numbers at Juvenile level are way up again - their argument is that they should be funded appropriately as they're promoting the association.

(1) Aware of that. But what about the intercounty standard player who can't afford to go home for club and county games, since they mightn't get expenses from the club? What about a good standard player but with no car? They can get lifts from other county players, but for a club they're snookered? I know these are isolated cases, but no more isolated than the case of clubs that suddenly end up with millions in the bank and decide they're going to buy a championship.

(2) I agree that runs contrary to the spirit of the association - but that's always gone hand in hand with the absence of parish rule, and to be honest, who's to say that this wouldn't continue even if players had to declare for Dublin? You argue that players wouldn't transfer if that was the case - some mightn't, but many more still would. Would that make it better, or make it worse?

(3) It's great that underage numbers are up, but that's an issue for clubs. I can't see how an increase in under 12 players at Ballyboden or Raheny costs any more to the Dublin county board? Anyway, my point stands - in 2009 Offaly spent €435,000 on county teams, and €418,000 in 2010, and we have the same amount of county teams as Dublin. I don't have the 2011 number to hand but our overall balances were about the same so I presume it would be under half a million, and that's giving both codes equal preference. Dublin spent €2m on team costs, so if there are juveniles being neglected because Dublin choose to spend four times as much as other counties on their intercounty sides, then I would suggest that's your problem and the last thing that should be done is that there should be even more money thrown at the problem.

[Lone Shark]

Specifically how would they do that aside from bringing in a bye-law such as this?

Increase the burden of reporting on clubs' finances to make it even more difficult to get away with making cash payments.

Enforce a version of parish rule where clubs can only pick from designated areas.

Create a rule where if a club has X% of members from outside Dublin, then they can only have X% of players from outside Dublin on their senior team. That way you don't penalise clubs who have a lot of country members, but who have them at all levels and didn't recruit them.


There's a lot of ways to tackle a problem fairly if you put a little thought into it, rather than come in swinging with a sledgehammer.

[heffo]

Specifically how would they do that aside from bringing in a bye-law such as this?

Increase the burden of reporting on clubs' finances to make it even more difficult to get away with making cash payments.

Enforce a version of parish rule where clubs can only pick from designated areas.

Create a rule where if a club has X% of members from outside Dublin, then they can only have X% of players from outside Dublin on their senior team. That way you don't penalise clubs who have a lot of country members, but who have them at all levels and didn't recruit them.


There's a lot of ways to tackle a problem fairly if you put a little thought into it, rather than come in swinging with a sledgehammer.

1. If Mick O'Dwyer can get a tax clearance cert, then how would they find the needle in the haystack? How would pay for this extra burden? It's hard enough to find club officers for a medium/big clubs?

2. There is a reason there is no parish rule in Dublin - it's unworkable - what about the 3 radius in Dublin 3 where you have 10/12 clubs picking from same schools and area?

3. That won't tackle the problem - some clubs have a link/connection with country clubs and have long had 'outsiders' playing for them who wouldn't be of a Senior county standard - they 'declare' for Dublin but wouldn't be within an asses roar of the team - so no issue there. Putting a quote of say 3 senior players doesn't stop you brining in 3 top-class IC players.

[screenexile]

Everyone seems to have missed the point here.

1. Costello's transfer bye-law proposal - the ordinary 'culchie teacher' here won't be affected - if he's living in Dublin, working in Dublin and wants to put down roots then fine let him transfer, but he has to officially 'declare' for Dublin - no problem, he's Senior not IC standard so he transfers, plays away and thats the end of that.

2. Your Conor Mortimers, Colm Parkinson's, Begley's etc who suddenly find themselves living in a city centre penthouse with a 'job' provided by their new club - this is what he's addressing - if they have to declare for Dublin then the likelyhood is they won't transfer. Some previous players who've transferred to Dublin in the past ten years have been getting paid by their county on the side, they won't be paid by Dublin and it's unlikely they'd be selected anyway. Plenty of other players playing in Dublin over the last 15 years have openly made themselves available and weren't selected.

3. Funding - playing numbers at Juvenile level are way up again - their argument is that they should be funded appropriately as they're promoting the association.

(1) Aware of that. But what about the intercounty standard player who can't afford to go home for club and county games, since they mightn't get expenses from the club? What about a good standard player but with no car? They can get lifts from other county players, but for a club they're snookered? I know these are isolated cases, but no more isolated than the case of clubs that suddenly end up with millions in the bank and decide they're going to buy a championship.

(2) I agree that runs contrary to the spirit of the association - but that's always gone hand in hand with the absence of parish rule, and to be honest, who's to say that this wouldn't continue even if players had to declare for Dublin? You argue that players wouldn't transfer if that was the case - some mightn't, but many more still would. Would that make it better, or make it worse?

(3) It's great that underage numbers are up, but that's an issue for clubs. I can't see how an increase in under 12 players at Ballyboden or Raheny costs any more to the Dublin county board? Anyway, my point stands - in 2009 Offaly spent €435,000 on county teams, and €418,000 in 2010, and we have the same amount of county teams as Dublin. I don't have the 2011 number to hand but our overall balances were about the same so I presume it would be under half a million, and that's giving both codes equal preference. Dublin spent €2m on team costs, so if there are juveniles being neglected because Dublin choose to spend four times as much as other counties on their intercounty sides, then I would suggest that's your problem and the last thing that should be done is that there should be even more money thrown at the problem.

An excellent point and well put!! It basically sums up why Dublin should not be deisgnated a province as it will effectively render Dublin a proffessional team.

As has been said, if Dublin are willing to become their own 'provincial board' then let them create 2/3 County teams. Having said that it's taken them 15 years to win the AI with just one team so I can't see the DCB going for this particular notion!

[Lone Shark]

(1) Because if intercounty teams are paying managers, it's usually through benefactors putting them on the payroll. The problem here appears to be one club paying fortunes from their own bank account. That should be traceable. Anyway, it doesn't affect the core problem that if a club wants to buy players, forcing them to transfer to Dublin will simply end up with just that - a few less players transferring up, but a lot more Dublin based players giving up on their home county. Who does that help? And I say this from a county that has no hurlers in Dublin and two football panellists in Sylvesters, neither of whom would be likely to start a championship match.

(2) It doesn't have to be done by parish - just clearly define catchment areas. If 10/12 clubs have always picked from the same area, then allow that to continue. The point is that it will stop somebody living in Lucan from transferring to Kilmacud.

(3) What I'm suggesting there, and it was a top of the head thing so could probably be worked to suit, would take that into account. If your club membership includes 20% country, then your senior team could field up to 5 country players. If your club membership is 10% country, you can field 3 at senior level. That way you don't penalise clubs who have a lot of country members but do so because of links and connections, because they'll have plenty of country lads playing for their junior Z team as well. You only penalise the club that recruits senior standard lads only. 

[AZOffaly]

Playing membership I presume LS? And what defines 'from the country'? Moved to Dublin after you've started playing, or in school, or what? I like the idea, but as you said I think it would have to be worked through and be very black and white.

I can see clubs offering membership to auld lads in the pub to get their 'Culchie Quota' up.

[Lone Shark]

It was a top of the head idea so the kinks would have to be worked out, but yeah, I'd imagine playing membership, and you could probably define it by "home club" as per the rules.

I know the rules would undoubtedly be twisted by some clubs, but it would be a step in the right direction anyway.