NI's future in the United Kingdom could depend on Catholics - Robinson

[Evil Genius]

I'd also argue that if another life is lost over division/unification, then it's one too many.

I agree that far too many lives have been lost because this island is divided. Not one more life should be lost to keep it divided.

Except that those people who are pro-partition are not the ones who are taking lives.

Rather it is those who are most viscerally anti-partition - as I think you well know...

[Evil Genius]

I agree that far too many lives have been lost because this island is divided. Not one more life should be lost to keep it divided.

And what would be an acceptable number of deaths to reunite it?

This is the latest step in Unionism's constant redefining of what The Irish Question is. Whether it be carving out their own herrenvolk democracy, depriving their own proles of votes so the Papists couldn't have them, rejecting the sovereignty of Parliament in making international treaties, or constantly threatening violence should they not get their way,

Er, this is 2011.  You know, mandatory power sharing, SF in Government, equal rights for all etc...

we now have the hysterically desperate idea that you can buy a person's sense of national identity.

Or, we now have the entirely rational idea that the constitutional question having been at least "parked" for now, maybe people can begin to cast their votes not on archaic, tribal lines, but on the same broadly socio-economic basis which governs elections in the rest of the free, democratic world...

Coming next: a requirement a la Montengro that any change in the status quo requires the approval of 55% of the voters. Then 55% of the electorate. Then 55% of Protestants . . .

Meanwhile, back in the real world:
http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf

[Evil Genius]

In any case the subsidy per-head of a resident of NI in terms of public service provision has been slowly decreasing in real terms since the late 90's and there's no sign of that stopping any time soon - it might accelerate if nothing else. In terms of UK regions, NI is in no worse position than Wales or NE England and its possible that say in two decades time if the UK still exists in its current form that NI may be more economically prosperous than right now. Too much of Britain itself depends on the economy of SE England.

Some excellent points, there (imo).

To which I would add that for the first half century after Partition, the NI economy was inherently far more propserous than the Republic's. Of course, much of that was dependant on traditional manufacting industry of the type which hardly exists any more in Western Europe any more.

But as against that, the ROI did not see its economy ravaged by anything like the 30 years of Troubles which NI had to endure. Therefore assuming those days are past, NI can hope to revert to a situatiuon whereby its economic prospects will depend on the efforts and assets of its own people etc.

In which case, I see no reason why NI cannot be every bit as prosperous long-term as the ROI - especially when it has the support of the British Treasury to underpin it, rather than the shackles of the Bundesbank to restrain it!

[Evil Genius]

Look on the bright side at least - its gonna be fun watching the unionists bend over backwards to keep the Fenians happy lest we decide to say "da f**k with this shit".

"Lest we decide"?

Does that imply a degree of doubt, Donagh Ulick?

Surely every "Fenian" [sic] is as pure and uncompromising as ever in resisting the Crown and  the Half Crown... 

[Evil Genius]

"No Irish nationalist could support any treaty which institutionalizes British government claims to a part of Irish national territory.  Indeed, the term - 'constitutional nationalism'- used by Mr.Mallon (SDLP) and his colleagues to describe their political philosophy is a contradiction in terms. The only constitutional nationalist in  Ireland today is Sean McBride. He puts his nationalism within a  framework of Irish constitutionality. Mr. Mallon, however, puts his within the framework of British constitutionality. Irish nationalism  within British constitutionality is a contradiction in terms."

- Gerry Adams, 1986
("The Politics of Irish Freedom", Gerry Adams, Brandon Book Publishers, Ltd., Dingle, County Kerry, Ireland 1986, page 112, lines 26-35. NOTE:  REMOVED FROM 1995 and1996 EDITIONS).

Very interesting deletion, there, Trout - especially when as late as 1994, Adams was still declaring to the SF Ard Fheis that: "Unionists are an Irish national minority, a religio/political minority, with minority rights not majority ones. Unionists can have no veto of British government policy or Irish government policy either for that matter."
http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/15170

I wonder how he reconciles those sentiments with the following extract from the GFA which he negotiated soon after:
[Participants] recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status, whether they prefer to continue to support the Union with Great Britain or a sovereign united Ireland
http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf

Or might it simply be that he is a lying bastard, who will say anything to anyone, if he thinks that it will gain him some sort of material advantage?

[Evil Genius]

All this mediaeval talk of Protestant and Catholic in a political debate is depressing. Should it be Nationalist and Unionist or is Northern Ireland really the last society in the post-Christian world (for want of a better term) that votes on sectarian lines?

Agree, but I do take some reassurance from the fact that a significant (and increasing?) section of the Prod/Unionist population is prepared to diverge from voting on traditional tribal lines, and give support to non-sectarian parties such as Alliance, Green, Independent and Conservative etc. Naomi Long unseating Peter Robinson in the Loyalist heartland of East Belfast was especially encouraging, maintaining as it did, a tradition dating back to Oliver Napier and beyond.

Perhaps given time, their RC/Nationalist counterparts will follow their example?

[Evil Genius]

Think we should add a poll and see if there are any on here who would support the "union"?

Aye, right.

For with a Board that is 50%+ for "Marty for Prez", that would be bound to be representative of popular opinion...

[Evil Genius]

A nationalist majority in the North will not mean an automatic 32 County Republic, even if a majority were to vote for it. The status quo would continue at Stormont and in all likelyhood an accommodation reached with Britain regarding a transfer of jurisdiction and funding. Unionist rights will be guaranteed much as Nationalists rights are now. A lot of Northern Nationalists actually like the way Stormont works even if the don't like the British trappings. If Unionists were being smart they would agree to parity of esteem for Nationalist flags, anthems and emblems, the down playing of the significance of the crown in the judicial system etc. They might also agree to a joint Head of State with the Queen and the President. Just a thought wouldn't it be a little bit ironic if the next King Billy were to over see the departure of the North from the UK?

Unionists don't need to do anything that would "dilute" the position of NI within the UK.

All the evidence indicates that he constititional issue is settled for now, and the foreseeable future.

Meanwhile back at the (Stormont) ranch, there is an economy to sort out...

[stew]

Think we should add a poll and see if there are any on here who would support the "union"?

Aye, right.

For with a Board that is 50%+ for "Marty for Prez", that would be bound to be representative of popular opinion...

I voted, not for that hoor.

[Evil Genius]

I think that in time the majority of people in the north can be persuaded that a united Ireland would be a good place to live. If we can't at least aim for that, what point is there?

With the way things are (end of The Troubles, GFA, death of Celtic Tiger, Euro-crisis etc), I honestly believe that the task of persuading the minority of people in the north [sic] that "NI is a good place to live" is proving somewhat easier than that which you are pursuing.

[Evil Genius]

Northern Ireland is always going to be a bit of both British and Irish, isn't it?  If the GFA gives some sort of parity of esteem to Nationalists  as a minority then when the table are turned the Protestants will have to get the same treatment. The Brits are very kind to fund the whole charade. They broke it so they should fix it.

I though David Adams' piece on Michael D was very good

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1117/1224307704567.html

The position of (so-called) "Loyalists" like Davy Adams in the post-Troubles world is a curious one. For having been resoundingly and consistently rejected by their "own" community at the Polls, they are reduced to scrounging around for a wee bit of consideration whereever they can get it.

And seeing as no-one anywhere in the UK gives a flying fcuk about any of them, that seems to mean Da Republik - as eg Jackie McDonald and his "New Best Friend" Mary McAleese demonstrated:


What with Gerry Adams fleeing to Louth, it's suggests parallels with Mauretania welcoming the dregs of the Gadaffi regime, or Idi Amin retiring to Saudi Arabia.

In fact, I'm tempted to say you're welcome to this motley assortment of thugs, gangsters and murderers etc, except that I wouldn't wish them upon my worst enemy, never mind the (overwhelmingly) good people of the ROI.

[Evil Genius]

Something I remember clearly from stupid arguments I was involved in on OWC many moons ago, was that when we reached a time when a UI seemed a genuine possibility (and would be voted for) a lot of the contingent on OWC thought it very fair that at that point the boundaries of NI should be redrawn again to rather than (once again) accepting the will of the majority.

As a discussion site for NI football fans, OWC is no more representative of Unionist thinking than, say, a  discussion site for GAA fans is of Nationalist thinking.

Or did you not happen to notice eg the majority support Marty McGuinness got on here for his presidential bid, as against the 13% of the vote that he actually got? 

[Evil Genius]

Something I remember clearly from stupid arguments I was involved in on OWC many moons ago, was that when we reached a time when a UI seemed a genuine possibility (and would be voted for) a lot of the contingent on OWC thought it very fair that at that point the boundaries of NI should be redrawn again to rather than (once again) accepting the will of the majority.

Seems about right. They insist they're entitled to a homeland, something that respectable opinion in Albion scoffs at when articulated by Turkish Cypriots or white South Africans.

So have I got this straight?

When a majority (Unionists) in one part of an island (Ireland) demand the right to self-determination for themselves etc, that is seeking "homeland" status.

But when the majority (Nationalists) in another part of the same island simultaneously demand the right to self-determination for themselves, that is somehow different?

You know, you really should stop listening to the voices in your head, and start studying the reality of what is happening all around you.

This would be a good place to start:
http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf

[AQMP]

He's on a roll!

[Jim_Murphy_74]

He's on a roll!

Only for yourself and Stew he'd have the page to himself...someone must have hit a nerve!

/Jim