My Letter to the Irish News about the 'Occupy' protests

[Puckoon]

6. To me there has been a sneering tone here dismissing the OWS protests without getting to the root of why they're happening or what their reasons are. Should we be happy with the status quo? Many of those who are frustrated at not being able to get work are having to leave our shores to find it. That suits someone who is young with no ties, but if you have a family it's not as easy to do.

I agree with most of what you write here, with a few comments of my own. I am not enlightened enough in the financial world to understand the complete intricacies of the meltdown as you do. Muppet will testify on that as I've IMed him enough asking him to explain a few concepts to me.

Regarding the dismissal of the OWS protests - this would be my take. I don't dismiss the protest. I just do not understand the mindset. Maybe it's my Irish "put up with my lot" disposition. Maybe it's that I can't envisage being in a position to actually "go occupy wall street". The baby mama would have some choice words to say if I told her I was laid off and was headed to protest and she was getting no money this month. I have responsibilities that need to be met and therefore going off protesting the system simply is not an option. I'd need to get out there, and do what it takes to make the ends meet. From a personal perspective - occupy wall street is not an option to me. Perhaps the last line of your post can also be used in this instance. It's easy if you are young and have no ties - but if you have a family its not that easy to do.

[Puckoon]

47% of Americans wouldn't be able to raise $2000 in 30 days according to Harpers. 
Are they all lazy?

I can't raise 2000$ in 30 days. I can make it, but there are bills to pay. Are 47% of the population of any country supposed to be in a position to raise that kind of money in their respective markets in 30 days?

There are wisdom teeth (yes, really) that need taken out - I've to save and budget for them
There are new tires need bought for the winter  - I've to save and budget for them
There's a credit card - if 2000$ was needed immediately - but who wants to get into that debt.

Im 31 - are 31 year olds supposed to be able to just whip up 2000$ in 30 days? Is that realistic?

I work 40-50 hours a week, am I lazy?

[The Iceman]

Muppet just to weight in on some things here.
Just because I am a committed Catholic and standup for my faith and try to evangelize does not brandish me a raving right winger. I barely follow politics here, as you troll through all of my posts I am sure you can confirm that I rarely, if ever, post on strictly political topics. From my limited understanding of politics in America and if I could vote I actually believe the Democrats have better policies but I don't agree with their moral stance on a lot of issues and as a result struggle with them as a party.
I don't like a lot of Republican policies but agree with some of the moral stances they take but struggle with them as a party.
I recognize that whoever is President or whoever controls the senate doesn't really matter as this country will always be run by big business (much like the rest of the world).

I don't have a clue what else hides behind the phrase "the world owes me/them a living" as you have indicated.

I appreciate the likes of Puck stepping in here with his opinions and in defense of mine.

Muppet, you read too much into things and look for too many opportunities to stir up crap and twist words and wind people up. There used to be good craic on this board. There used to be healthy conversation and debate, intelligent discussion. There would be a few bollixes who would show up and lighten the tone and give us all a laugh but now I think there are just too many of yous bollixes and combined, your once humorous injections, are increasingly annoying.

[seafoid]

47% of Americans wouldn't be able to raise $2000 in 30 days according to Harpers. 
Are they all lazy?

I can't raise 2000$ in 30 days. I can make it, but there are bills to pay. Are 47% of the population of any country supposed to be in a position to raise that kind of money in their respective markets in 30 days?

There are wisdom teeth (yes, really) that need taken out - I've to save and budget for them
There are new tires need bought for the winter  - I've to save and budget for them
There's a credit card - if 2000$ was needed immediately - but who wants to get into that debt.

Im 31 - are 31 year olds supposed to be able to just whip up 2000$ in 30 days? Is that realistic?

I work 40-50 hours a week, am I lazy?

Puckoon

There was something in the FT recently about the proportion of Americans who have no savings whatsoever.  It's very high.
I wouldn't worry about the 2k if you are 31 but 47% is across all ages . So the implication is that people don't have the savings. I think that is one reason why OWS has caught on.     

[stew]

Muppet I think its a bit far fetched to draw comparisons there in fairness.
Yes big business is a problem and yes the distribution of wealth is a problem. What I don't agree with is the attitude of 'the world owes me a living.'
Look around the bars in Ireland at the weekend and its the same people, in the same trendy new clothes, with the iPhones and the new cars, the holidays to Spain once a year, yet they don't have any money. Living beyond their means is the problem.
Couple that with the laziness that has crept into the country and you have a problem. People don't want to work and expect to get paid a lot of money for not working.

I work about 60-70 hours a week, God forbid if I was out of work in the morning and couldn't get work doing something similar to what I am doing I would be on a building site or behind a bar pulling pints or manual labour on a farm. You reap what you sow.

When you took issue with this post, the whole thread went left. This post got extrapolated into a discussion about begrudgery, defence of wall street, boasting etc. In my opinion I think this post is completely truthful - and I do not (nor do I think this post does), defend anything that has happened in Wall street. I think there are many truths in this post:

1. Big Business is a problem
2. The distribution of wealth is a problem
3. There is a western world wide issue (ive even been guilty of it myself) of not living within the means available to you
4. There is an attitude of entitelment and that the world owes (I have seen it in my own workplace, and community)
5. There are people, many people who are not prepared to help themselves (there are in addition - there are as many people who unfortunately are not being afforded the opportunity to help themselves - see points 1 and 2)
6. What is boastful, or lecturing about suggesting that if IM, (or indeed myself as we had MORE layoffs last week, with more in the pipeline), were to be out of work in the morning - there wouldn't be efforts going into a mass protest - rather I'd be out hauling bricks, or lpulling pints to make ends meet?

Ok let's do this.

To me, and evidentially others in Ireland, that post says the following about Ireland:

1. He fires the old chestnut about 'the world owes me a living'. You live in the States, you know exactly what is behind that and you of all people usually run a mile from that crap.
2. He says look around the bars of Ireland at all these people living beyond their means. 4 years too late of course.
3. Then we have the predictable 'People don't want to work and expect to get paid a lot of money for not working' after the usual laziness accusation.
Get the picture, I'm broke, you owe me a living, I'm lazy, I deserve more money for doing nothing?
4. The only people on here who talk about how hard they work and how much they earn are those lambasting the rest of us, without even the slightest clue as to our circumstances.

Stew let the cat out of the bag by assuming I haven't a pot to piss in. That said it all and you quickly tried to deflect the point away from that.

You have reacted to back up an acquaintance or mate or whatever. Very noble but from what I have read over the years you don't buy into that Republican - survival of the fittest as long as you don't mean Darwin- rhetoric.

I didn't assume you haven't a pot to piss in, I said that to get a rise out of you, I was being lazy in the way you all assume I watch Fox news, I really don't watch Fox news much at all but despite telling you lot that you hammer away as if i do. That to me is either stupidity or laziness, take your pick.

A man told you he worked hard and was doing all right and you blew it totally out of proportion, you are way off base on this thread, you really, really are.

[seafoid]

http://www.thenation.com/article/155801/city-ruins

Father Michael Doyle, an Irish priest, has been in the Sacred Heart parish for thirty-five years. He has witnessed the violence of poverty devastating his congregation. Father Doyle was a member of the Camden 28, a group of left-wing Catholics and anti–Vietnam War activists who in 1971 raided the city's draft board to destroy files. He was sent to Camden as punishment by church leaders who disapproved of his activism.

"Today's a very hard time to be poor," says Father Doyle, seated in the church rectory. "Because you know you're poor. You hear people my age get up and say, 'We were poor. We put cardboard in our shoes.' We talk like that. But we didn't know we were poor. Today you do. And how do you know you're poor? Your television shows you that you're poor. So it's very easy to build up anger in a, say, a high-voltage kid of 17. He knows he's poor, he looks at the TV and all these people have everything and I have nothing. And so he's very angry.... I'm talking about the violence that rises out of the marketing that shows the kid what he could have, creates a huge anger that explodes easily. That I discovered very quickly when I came to Camden. I discovered the anger was so near the surface, you just rub it and it explodes. And there's no respect for you if you have no money."

[muppet]

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/empandunempilo.htm

Between 2006 and now 10% of the workforce here has lost employment. Hidden in those stats are probably another 10% who have emigrated. Add that to those who were unemployed before 2006 and you get some idea of what has happened the Irish workforce even if the official figure is still less than 15%.

At any time the notion that the unemployed are lazy is grossly offensive, but in the current global crisis it simply smacks of hubris. That may not have been the intended sentiment on this thread but I doubt if there is a single Irish based poster here who hasn't had mates or family (if not themselves) lose a job recently.

Back to Wall Street. Some light reading that no doubt was written by Leftie Pinko Euro weenies:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-great-american-bubble-machine-20100405

[redandblack4ever]

Matt Taibbi is definitely not a lefty European weenie. But to TO and Stew anything he says will reek of that damn liberal bias that's the main problem with the American media. TO and Stew will probably say that as a writer for Rolling Stone, he's just one of those Americans who hate America, long hair hippies still stuck in the 60's who support Obama.

And Stew, if you want to call me names, go right ahead. Sticks and stones and all that, by using a perjorative term for me, you only make yourself look bad. But then again you live in Green Bay, so what else should I expect. And for your information Al Gore won the popular vote in the 2000 election not Bush. Look it up, its the truth. And as for 2004, there was something going on in Ohio with votes being switched from Kerry to Bush. I suspect Karl Rove was behind it all, but we'll never know will we. Check that out as well, if you can stomach it.

TO, it's none of your business but my husband and I are not running back to Co. Down to suck off the British government. We own a house, pay rates and since neither of us is gettiing any younger, at least you don't have to bankrupt yourself to get care/help for youself when you can no longer do it for yourself. My husband has worked for the same company here in Chicago since he arrived here in 1979, so he'll have an adequate union pension to keep us going.

I really do feel sorry for the two of you. Talk about begrudgers, you two take the cake.

[seafoid]

Stew and TO remind me of these bucks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14njUwJUg1I

[Declan]

Opinion piece in today's Times

Occupy movement's peaceful assault is proper but worse injustices also demand action

OPINION: The middle classes form the backbone of this global lobby group due to bleak prospects, writes VITTORIO BUFACCHI

SOCIAL INJUSTICE is on the agenda. The bailout of financial institutions was by all accounts a necessary evil, but this policy came at a real cost, and ordinary people are paying it. That bankers responsible for financial meltdown are still being paid bonuses only adds insult to injury, and is perhaps an act of hypocrisy too far.

Income disparity and corporate greed are some of the targets of the Occupy movement. A month after hundreds of thousands of protesters took to the streets rallying against banks, financial institutions and government cutbacks, the Occupy movement is not showing signs of withering: protests are still ongoing in Wall Street, London, Dublin, Cork, and many other cities across the United States, Europe, Oceania and the Far East.

At the root of the Occupy movement is a sense of indignation over the level of inequality and unfairness in our society in 2011. The motto of the Occupy movement in Spain reads: "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty." If the Occupy movement has a shared goal, globally, it is to highlight the social injustice that seems to be at the heart of the basic structure of our society: financially, politically and socially.

The inequality in income and wealth across industrialised nations is as grotesque as it is well-documented. The 400 wealthiest Americans (the Forbes listers) have as much wealth as the bottom 50 per cent of all Americans, or 57 million households. There is something perverse about the world's millionaires and billionaires, who make up less than 1 per cent of the world population, controlling 38.5 per cent of the wealth.

To its credit, the Occupy movement understands there is more to social injustice than the uneven distribution of income. The issue is not merely economic; income inequality corrupts the democratic fabric of our society. The rest of the 99 per cent of the population are not only excluded from such rich pickings, they are powerless in rebalancing the laws and norms that are skewed in favour of the super-rich. The 99 per cent are effectively excluded from participating in the running of society.

The Occupy movement's peaceful assault on the bastions of social injustice is legitimate. Their motivations and concerns are commendable. It is not surprising that no politician dares to speak against them, not even billionaire Mayor of New York Michael Bloomberg. But why are so many people getting involved with this protest movement? And why now? After all, inequality and injustice has always been a feature of our society. Figures from 2003 show the average chief executive in America was paid 531 times the pay of the average blue-collar worker, so why take to the streets now?

One explanation for the popularity of the Occupy movement is that it enjoys the support of a sizeable middle-class contingent. Numbers make a difference, and the middle classes are making up the numbers.

One protester at Occupy Wall Street explained his parents had endured a debt of $100,000 to pay for his college education, but all their sacrifices were to no avail as he was unable to find a job. One is left wondering whether this protester (and many others like him) will still be supporting the cause when, eventually, the economy picks up, levels of unemployment recede, and he can wear a suit to his new job.

When the middle classes once again see a future where they can prosper, the urgency of the Occupy movement will slowly deflate. Many of its activists will trade the streets for offices with their names on a desk, and the world will go back to the status quo of the last few decades, with its inequality, unfairness, exclusion and disempowerment.

The euro zone deal agreed in Brussels may be the first step towards averting the spectre of recession, and millions across Europe anxiously hope we are finally on the way towards resuming business as usual. When that moment comes, and the rich nations steady themselves for another cycle of boom and bust, we will still have 850 million human beings chronically undernourished; 800 million illiterate adults; 220 million child labourers, and 40 per cent of humankind living in severe poverty. That is the worse injustice.

Dr Vittorio Bufacchi lectures in philosophy in University College Cork.

[Tyrones own]

Matt Taibbi is definitely not a lefty European weenie. But to TO and Stew anything he says will reek of that damn liberal bias that's the main problem with the American media. TO and Stew will probably say that as a writer for Rolling Stone, he's just one of those Americans who hate America, long hair hippies still stuck in the 60's who support Obama.

And Stew, if you want to call me names, go right ahead. Sticks and stones and all that, by using a perjorative term for me, you only make yourself look bad. But then again you live in Green Bay, so what else should I expect. And for your information Al Gore won the popular vote in the 2000 election not Bush. Look it up, its the truth. And as for 2004, there was something going on in Ohio with votes being switched from Kerry to Bush. I suspect Karl Rove was behind it all, but we'll never know will we. Check that out as well, if you can stomach it.

TO, it's none of your business but my husband and I are not running back to Co. Down to suck off the British government. We own a house, pay rates and since neither of us is gettiing any younger, at least you don't have to bankrupt yourself to get care/help for youself when you can no longer do it for yourself. My husband has worked for the same company here in Chicago since he arrived here in 1979, so he'll have an adequate union pension to keep us going.

I really do feel sorry for the two of you. Talk about begrudgers, you two take the cake.

Good riddance and don't be doing a runner on your taxes either...seen your type before, elitist shit don't stink attitude, all about raising taxes then fcuk off to Ireland and pay nobody.
Taxes are wonderful as long as it's someone elses money, right Mrs Wonderful

[redandblack4ever]

Listen sweetie, don't talk to me about paying taxes. I've been paying taxes in this country since 1969 and my husband has been paying them since 1980 which I'm sure is far longer than you have. Don't worry your head over us paying our taxes, our accountant will be sure to see that they are paid on time and correctly.

This isn't a pissing contest about taxes anyway, but since you have a problem with the fact that my husband and I both have become disgusted about this country, mainly because of people like yourself and Green Bay Stew from Armagh, with your attitude that so many of your ilk have, "I've got mine, f**k everyone else" we have decided to live the rest of our lives in my husband's hometown in Co. Down in our own house which is completely paid for. I could give a fiddler's f**k if either of you approve or not.

As I said I feel sorry for you and I hope that nothing catastrophic befalls you or anyone that belongs to you. You have heard of the expression, "there but for the grace of God, go I", well take those words and think about them because bad luck, losing your job, or illness can happpen to all of us including you and Stew. As Mr. Wonderful says "there's a long road with no turn on".

[seafoid]

Listen sweetie, don't talk to me about paying taxes. I've been paying taxes in this country since 1969 and my husband has been paying them since 1980 which I'm sure is far longer than you have. Don't worry your head over us paying our taxes, our accountant will be sure to see that they are paid on time and correctly.

This isn't a pissing contest about taxes anyway, but since you have a problem with the fact that my husband and I both have become disgusted about this country, mainly because of people like yourself and Green Bay Stew from Armagh, with your attitude that so many of your ilk have, "I've got mine, f**k everyone else" we have decided to live the rest of our lives in my husband's hometown in Co. Down in our own house which is completely paid for. I could give a fiddler's f**k if either of you approve or not.

As I said I feel sorry for you and I hope that nothing catastrophic befalls you or anyone that belongs to you. You have heard of the expression, "there but for the grace of God, go I", well take those words and think about them because bad luck, losing your job, or illness can happpen to all of us including you and Stew. As Mr. Wonderful says "there's a long road with no turn on".

Best of luck with the move . I hope it goes well and that Down bring back Sam soonish. 

[stew]

Listen sweetie, don't talk to me about paying taxes. I've been paying taxes in this country since 1969 and my husband has been paying them since 1980 which I'm sure is far longer than you have. Don't worry your head over us paying our taxes, our accountant will be sure to see that they are paid on time and correctly.

This isn't a pissing contest about taxes anyway, but since you have a problem with the fact that my husband and I both have become disgusted about this country, mainly because of people like yourself and Green Bay Stew from Armagh, with your attitude that so many of your ilk have, "I've got mine, f**k everyone else" we have decided to live the rest of our lives in my husband's hometown in Co. Down in our own house which is completely paid for. I could give a fiddler's f**k if either of you approve or not.

As I said I feel sorry for you and I hope that nothing catastrophic befalls you or anyone that belongs to you. You have heard of the expression, "there but for the grace of God, go I", well take those words and think about them because bad luck, losing your job, or illness can happpen to all of us including you and Stew. As Mr. Wonderful says "there's a long road with no turn on".

You don't know me, I do care about people and I do sponsor people who deserve to be sponsored, that is a documented fact that i can prove. Because you are a liberal does not mean you care, libertarians also care about people as do republicans, I am not now nor will I ever be from Green Bay, I am from Armagh and despite it's flaws it is who I am and were I am from.

I lost my job, I lost the ability to drive based on the fact I took a seizure, it cost me my job, my income...............and for a while my dignity.

I care deeply about people, currently I am praying for a 15 year old child who has a brain tumor and who has just been informed there are grave complications. I will not allow you or your sad ilk to make out that we don't give a shite about anybody but ourselves.

You have issues, you seem to hate Green Bay because of me! how sad do you have to be to do that?

We can be different and have a value system that is decent, you, your hubby, nor his nasty union don't own the moral center, the fact is that you had eight years of Bush and did not move back back to Ireland, why was that? surely he was the ultimate anti liberal politician.

Finally, were you not the one's protesting the norn iron team that came to Chicago to play Romania a few years ago?

[redandblack4ever]

Stew, yeah I do hate Green Bay. I hate the Green Bay Packers and all their cheesehead fans. I've been a Chicago Bears fan my entire life and my opinion of the Slackers ain't gonna change. It's rather funny that you think I hate Green Bay just because of you, do you really think you're that important? Guess what you're not...

I noticed that you claim to be an Armagh man first, last and always. Well I thought that most Armagh people have some decency, but it's quite clear that you don't. You've never met me in your life, yet you've used two perjoratives referring to me in your last two posts. Oh, well what do expect from a pig but a grunt.

Don't worry I won't be bothering you again. You're beyond redemption.