Ulster club grading... A farce

dundrumite · September 27, 2011, 01:17:33 PM

Have started a thread in this in the past and it is something that really annoys me. As a Down man our system is fair top 16 clubs or if the case should be top 15 plus previous years intermediate winners competes at senior. Next 16 or 15 plus previous years junior winners if the fall outside thus league standing competes in intermediate with the remaining 12 clubs taking part in junior. This as I see it is fair.
However, when it comes to ulster level not one Down club team in the history of competition has made it to junior or intermediate final. A possible reason for this I believe is the grading system across other counties in Ulster. I believe in Armagh clubs can choose which level to play at. Whilst the winners of last years junior title in Antrim are back in the final again.
In order to add value and fairness to these competitions surely a provincial or even national wide grading system should be implemented.

brokencrossbar1 · September 27, 2011, 01:40:53 PM

I can't account for any other counties but I think you are incorrect in relation to the Armagh championship. A team can chose to drop down a grade but cannot chose to drop up a grade but to drop down there are certain requriements in relation to league standing and previous years championship record. There can be exceptions but they are rare. The Down system is very fair but I don't think it has any bearing whatsoever to the relative success in Ulster.

armaghniac · September 27, 2011, 01:45:36 PM

QuoteI believe in Armagh clubs can choose which level to play at.

As BCB says this is a simplification of the situation.

This griping about Armagh clubs has gone on here for several years, with Cullyhanna being quoted as an example, but they have played in the Armagh senior championship for the last couple of years.

screenexile · September 27, 2011, 01:51:04 PM

Our system is very fair as well and is all about league position. Top 16 Senior, next 16 Inter, and the rest Junior.

In my opinion this is the best way to do it and lets everyone know where they stand and means that teams are all of a similar level. I don't think that deciding you want to drop down to Intermediate is a good enough reason.

nrico2006 · September 27, 2011, 01:54:05 PM

Tyrone is organised in the proper way according to you Dundrumite, whereas Armagh is not. There is Division 1 teams in Armagh who play Intermediate Championship and Division 2 teams who play in the Senior Championship. I also recall Lisnaskea winning the Intermediate last year but they were in Division 1 in Fermanagh - this kind of carry on should not be tolerated. A competition (Ulster Club) should be fair across the board. Its a bit like the All Ireland Minor Championship at present, where teams can lose a few games in one province yet inn another they cant. It should be standardised.

What is the craic in Antrim? I know in hurling you could have the situation where a Division 4 team (St Teresas) is playing a Division 2 team in the Intermediate Championship? Is this simply by choice?

dundrumite · September 27, 2011, 01:59:50 PM

I am coming accross as making excuses for down lack of success which wasn't my original intention. I was stating that what is needed is a uniform grading system in the interests of fairness for these competitions.

Bingo · September 27, 2011, 02:27:25 PM

I would guess that its very hard to standardise as every county has different numbers of clubs, so it will always be the case that the standards at the various levels will be different. Its the same for senior championships - every county seems to have a different structure in place.

I'm not sure it is possible to standardise it across all counties. Each one has to cater for different numbers/levels etc.

dundrumite · September 27, 2011, 03:03:25 PM

Quote from: Bingo on September 27, 2011, 02:27:25 PM
I would guess that its very hard to standardise as every county has different numbers of clubs, so it will always be the case that the standards at the various levels will be different. Its the same for senior championships - every county seems to have a different structure in place.

I'm not sure it is possible to standardise it across all counties. Each one has to cater for different numbers/levels etc.

Top 1/3 senior next 1/3 intermediate next 1/3 junior at it's most simplistic form I'd say

passedit · September 27, 2011, 03:15:05 PM

Quote from: Bingo on September 27, 2011, 02:27:25 PM
I would guess that its very hard to standardise as every county has different numbers of clubs, so it will always be the case that the standards at the various levels will be different. Its the same for senior championships - every county seems to have a different structure in place.

I'm not sure it is possible to standardise it across all counties. Each one has to cater for different numbers/levels etc.

It was standardised before people started arsing around.
The progression is as follows

Win Junior in your own county move to intermediate in your own county
Win Intermediate in your own county move to senior in your own county
Win senior in your own county progress to Provincial

The current provincial club junior and inter comps are basically tallest dwarf competitions and unnecessary and irrelevant. Some players are elligible to play at all grades in one year for god's sake

Bingo · September 27, 2011, 03:25:11 PM

Quote from: passedit on September 27, 2011, 03:15:05 PM
The current provincial club junior and inter comps are basically tallest dwarf competitions and unnecessary and irrelevant. Some players are elligible to play at all grades in one year for god's sake

What you mean - Snr, Int & Jun championship?? I'm lost.

In Monaghan its simple alright - 3 leagues ie 1 Snr 10teams, 1 Intermediate 10teams, 1 Junior 10teams. Win the championship or league to get promoted, botton two in league get relegated.

At provincial level its all pearshaped as teams at different levels are playing each other but you could argue that this is the case for all GAA competitions including the All-Ireland senior county championship.

FermGael · September 27, 2011, 03:31:04 PM

In Fermanagh's case, Fionntamhnach is correct.
Lisnaskea finished second in division 2 that year(and were promoted to division 1) but because the intermediate winners(Kinawley) finished below them in the league, Kinawley had to go into the senior championship and Lisnaskea were moved down to the intermediate.
This year(Teemore) and last year(St Pat's Donagh) we have had two teams from division 2 in the championship final.
Lack of clubs is the problem.

Fermanagh have too many teams competing in the senior championship. Should only be 8 in the senior, 8 in the intermediate and 4 in the junior. Would make the whole thing more competitive.
But changes have been proposed but the clubs will never support a championship structure that reduces the number of teams in the senior championship.
As far as i know there are no junior representatives this year from Fermanagh. They all played in the intermediate championship I think!!!

Fionntamhnach what is the story with ECIII being in the junior semi in Tyrone??
How does that work?? Is it their reserve team or a completely separate team??
Can they compete in Ulster level because i know in Fermanagh that when a reserve team won the junior championship, they were not allowed to compete in Ulster.

fitzroyalty · September 27, 2011, 04:43:06 PM

That is ridiculous a club having four senior teams!

I think the Tyrone/Derry/Down templates are the best way to go i.e. top 16 play SFC next 16 IFC etc. Ulster council should look at standardising across the 9 counties.

Armagh is messed up as there are four League divisions despite only 3 grades. They changed the Divisions not too long ago to accommodate IIs teams entering Division IV and more importantly postponing Mullabawn and Killeavy's relegation for a year

so can't see the county board changing them again so soon.

armaghniac · September 27, 2011, 04:56:22 PM

Culloville are an example of an Intermediate team that has survived in Armagh Division 1 of late. But their survival in Div 1 is partly because they have typically not had any players on the intercounty panel and this gives them a chance in the league against teams that have star players missing.

Despite this they have failed to win intermediate in recent years, despite generally being favourites. That said, they might well win Intermediate this year and become senior again though. But even if they proceed in the Ulster intermediate with one fifth of a parish to pick from they are not exactly endowed with a huge advantage.

brokencrossbar1 · September 27, 2011, 04:57:47 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on September 27, 2011, 04:43:06 PM
That is ridiculous a club having four senior teams!

I think the Tyrone/Derry/Down templates are the best way to go i.e. top 16 play SFC next 16 IFC etc. Ulster council should look at standardising across the 9 counties.

Armagh is messed up as there are four League divisions despite only 3 grades. They changed the Divisions not too long ago to accommodate IIs teams entering Division IV and more importantly postponing Mullabawn and Killeavy's relegation for a year so can't see the county board changing them again so soon.

Down have 4 Dvisions but it seems to work fine. The reality is that in most counties you will have between 35 and 45 clubs. I don't see how there can't be a standardisation of teh grading system so that the top 1/3 play senior next 1/3 play Intermediate and next 1/3 play junior. It should make no odds then how many league Divisions or clubs there are, there would be uniformity.