What's said in the confession box will no longer stay there - Church outraged

[Eamonnca1]

Perhaps EamonnCA1 you could direct me to the specific article of Canon Law which directs anyone to keep quiet about a crime, then perhaps we would have a rational basis for discussion. Please do not avoid the issue by quoting the silly confessional argument, which is based on a series of myths, half truths and downright lies. The seal of confession is inviolate, end of story, it is a doctrine of faith and duty placed upon all clergy to maintain and uphold. Any state proposal to enforce the breaking of this sacred bond, would be legally unenforcable and morally unjust. Even if the Church were to comply fully with such ridiculous legislation, the legal pitfalls and problems would ensure there would be no impact on the sad sorry problem of child abuse which we all want to see tackled forcefully and effectively. Yes, individual Bishops have abused and misquoted Canon Law to cover up their own misdeeds, and, for that they should be held fully accountable by the state,in a court of law. There is nothing contained within Canon Law which prevents this happening, the only barrier is the weakness, cowardice and ineffectiveness of the state legal system in which you place your trust

You answered your own question.

[fearbrags]

Pangurban
That  is very well put and I agree entirely.

[Mike Sheehy]

Perhaps EamonnCA1 you could direct me to the specific article of Canon Law which directs anyone to keep quiet about a crime, then perhaps we would have a rational basis for discussion. Please do not avoid the issue by quoting the silly confessional argument, which is based on a series of myths, half truths and downright lies. The seal of confession is inviolate, end of story, it is a doctrine of faith and duty placed upon all clergy to maintain and uphold. Any state proposal to enforce the breaking of this sacred bond, would be legally unenforcable and morally unjust. Even if the Church were to comply fully with such ridiculous legislation, the legal pitfalls and problems would ensure there would be no impact on the sad sorry problem of child abuse which we all want to see tackled forcefully and effectively. Yes, individual Bishops have abused and misquoted Canon Law to cover up their own misdeeds, and, for that they should be held fully accountable by the state,in a court of law. There is nothing contained within Canon Law which prevents this happening, the only barrier is the weakness, cowardice and ineffectiveness of the state legal system in which you place your trust

So it is morally unjust for the state to demand that an individual disclose whatever information that he has about the rape of a child ?  what exactly are you saying here ?

and how would it be "unenforcable" ....? what is it with people like you...don't you get it ? your "inviolate laws" are anything but "inviolate". You will not dictate to this country anymore. You will obey the law of the land and if you don't you will answer to the law of the land. If you wish to live under the pure jurisdiction of canon law then move to the f**king vatican.

The arrogance is unbelieveable...but, then again, hasn't it always been the way with lads like you 

[David McKeown]

Perhaps EamonnCA1 you could direct me to the specific article of Canon Law which directs anyone to keep quiet about a crime, then perhaps we would have a rational basis for discussion. Please do not avoid the issue by quoting the silly confessional argument, which is based on a series of myths, half truths and downright lies. The seal of confession is inviolate, end of story, it is a doctrine of faith and duty placed upon all clergy to maintain and uphold. Any state proposal to enforce the breaking of this sacred bond, would be legally unenforcable and morally unjust. Even if the Church were to comply fully with such ridiculous legislation, the legal pitfalls and problems would ensure there would be no impact on the sad sorry problem of child abuse which we all want to see tackled forcefully and effectively. Yes, individual Bishops have abused and misquoted Canon Law to cover up their own misdeeds, and, for that they should be held fully accountable by the state,in a court of law. There is nothing contained within Canon Law which prevents this happening, the only barrier is the weakness, cowardice and ineffectiveness of the state legal system in which you place your trust

Pangurban I can understand why you might think a law like the one proposed is practically unenforcable but I am curious to know why you think it would be legally unenforcable?  Also why would it be morally unjust.  I know next to nothing about Cannon law but I was always of the belief that anything that was said in confession had to stay there under cannon law with no exceptions, is that incorrect?

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Perhaps EamonnCA1 you could direct me to the specific article of Canon Law which directs anyone to keep quiet about a crime, then perhaps we would have a rational basis for discussion. Please do not avoid the issue by quoting the silly confessional argument, which is based on a series of myths, half truths and downright lies. The seal of confession is inviolate, end of story, it is a doctrine of faith and duty placed upon all clergy to maintain and uphold. Any state proposal to enforce the breaking of this sacred bond, would be legally unenforcable and morally unjust. Even if the Church were to comply fully with such ridiculous legislation, the legal pitfalls and problems would ensure there would be no impact on the sad sorry problem of child abuse which we all want to see tackled forcefully and effectively. Yes, individual Bishops have abused and misquoted Canon Law to cover up their own misdeeds, and, for that they should be held fully accountable by the state,in a court of law. There is nothing contained within Canon Law which prevents this happening, the only barrier is the weakness, cowardice and ineffectiveness of the state legal system in which you place your trust

So it is morally unjust for the state to demand that an individual disclose whatever information that he has about the rape of a child ?  what exactly are you saying here ?

and how would it be "unenforcable" ....? what is it with people like you...don't you get it ? your "inviolate laws" are anything but "inviolate". You will not dictate to this country anymore. You will obey the law of the land and if you don't you will answer to the law of the land. If you wish to live under the pure jurisdiction of canon law then move to the f**king vatican.

The arrogance is unbelieveable...but, then again, hasn't it always been the way with lads like you 

Mike

That is very well put and I agree entirely.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Pangurban

The rules, dogma or doctrines of your church or any other church have no authority in this country.

But for the sake of argument lets pretend God does exist  He has no authority in Ireland, let him rule heaven or hell or where ever he rules. The laws of the Irish State, Northern Irish Executive, UK law, EU legislation, International law, rules Ireland. Let God have his Kingdom and keeps his hands off our Republic and the NI region.

Same goes for any church this "God" or "Gods" deems his one, two or three true church/churches.

You don't get it P, every doctrine of every religion, faith is below Irish law. It is entirely morally just. If the Roman Catholic Church insists on coming out with statements hostile to Ireland. We can make the confessional box itself illegal. Of course they can go underground, but just like France we need to stand up and be counted. I totally agree with France's Burqua ban.

Its time that the phrase Godless be reclaimed, I can think of no greater compliment. Lets make Ireland Godless, lets make Ireland Great.

[Lar Naparka]

Perhaps EamonnCA1 you could direct me to the specific article of Canon Law which directs anyone to keep quiet about a crime, then perhaps we would have a rational basis for discussion. Please do not avoid the issue by quoting the silly confessional argument, which is based on a series of myths, half truths and downright lies. The seal of confession is inviolate, end of story, it is a doctrine of faith and duty placed upon all clergy to maintain and uphold. Any state proposal to enforce the breaking of this sacred bond, would be legally unenforcable and morally unjust. Even if the Church were to comply fully with such ridiculous legislation, the legal pitfalls and problems would ensure there would be no impact on the sad sorry problem of child abuse which we all want to see tackled forcefully and effectively. Yes, individual Bishops have abused and misquoted Canon Law to cover up their own misdeeds, and, for that they should be held fully accountable by the state,in a court of law. There is nothing contained within Canon Law which prevents this happening, the only barrier is the weakness, cowardice and ineffectiveness of the state legal system in which you place your trust

I can agree with you here without any problem.
The state appears to be failing in its duty to protect its citizens. This has been the case for decades past; probably since the foundation of the Free State, but it's inexcusable that it is happening at the present time.
Kenny knew he was on safe ground in his reaction to the Cloyne Report but populist statements are not enough. The next move is up to the state and he and his colleagues know very well what needs to be done.
Proposing to break the seal of the confessional is just not enough; it's an empty gesture that anyone with a titter of sense knows will be unenforceable.
The state has a constitutional obligation to see that all citizens shall "be held equal before the law."
To me, that means all have their legal rights as well as their legal duties. It's time Kenny started doing his duty and the same goes for all those involved in the administration of the law.

[NetNitrate]

Hope this law is brought in. A priest will have the choice of reporting a child raper to the guards or getting excommunicated for violating a medieval law of the church. It's amazing how many think it's morally unacceptable to break the latter. Surely the moral thing is to put the child's wellfare first.

[Pangurban]

I will say one thing for Mike Sheehy and MGHU they are good for a laugh with their primary school mentalities. As every one knows you can not reason with a delusion, but neither should you humour it. Mike as usual begins his silly tirade by accusing me of having said something i never said, but he was never one for letting truth get in the way of his argument.He then goes on to pose a question, the answer to which is glaringly obvious to anyone with a brain the size of a Pea, or anyone who has visited a confessional box. It is highly unlikely that anyone entering a confessional in any large City or Town and confessing to the abuse of a child, would be known by the priest, so identification would clearly be a problem. It is equally unlikely that he would receive absolution unless he agreed to atone and make restitution by surrenering himself to the police. Could the Priest risk violating the seal of confession by leaping from the Box and making a citizens arrest. Only in the deluded world of Mike Sheehy could this happen. The culprit would also probably deny having made such an admission, and any defence solicitor would have no difficulty dealing with hearsay evidence. Also by deterring the abuser from visiting a confessional , if he were so inclined, which is unlikely, the opportunity for intervention and counselling which might prevent further abuse would be lost.
I will not waste time addressing their ludicrous assertions re. the primacy of state law over Canon law as their no dispute or conflict between either of these legal codes outside of their own fevered imaginations.
I can also assure both these gentlemen and any others who share their views, that the religious people of Ireland of whatever denomination, who are still the vast majority within the Country, will not be silenced or driven out of the political or social debate. Mike suggested i might be more comfortable living in the Vatican, blind to the fact that it is he who is uncomfortable and out of step in this society, not I. Perhaps he could relocate to Red China, he has the right mentality for an authoritarian society, though i doubt he will like reality of it.
MGHU from his base in England, wants to make Ireland a godless society. He has been away to long or he would know that large tracts of Irish society already are Godless. We have violence on our streets on an increasing scale, attacks on the elderly who no longer can feel safe in their homes, drugs, racketeering, corruption in politics and business, child abuse and a growing sense of alienation and hopelessness. Do you want more of this. Can you see no link between the decline in true religious values and the decline in our society. The lying propaganda, empty rhetoric and doctrine of despair propounded by you and Mike are a large part of the problem, but the plain people of Ireland can see through it and the death of the false god of the Celtic Tiger along with the rampant immoral consumerist mentality it spawned, will hasten the return of the old values. May God bless you in your confusion

[Eamonnca1]

He has been away to long or he would know that large tracts of Irish society already are Godless. We have violence on our streets on an increasing scale, attacks on the elderly who no longer can feel safe in their homes, drugs, racketeering, corruption in politics and business, child abuse and a growing sense of alienation and hopelessness. Do you want more of this. Can you see no link between the decline in true religious values and the decline in our society.

I think that's a contemptible statement and anyone who agrees with it should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. It wasn't today's open atheists who raped and tortured a generation of Irish children who were placed in their care on the mistaken assumption that there was a correlation between religiosity and integrity.

[Pangurban]

I see where you are coming from Eamon, and to some extent  i can agree. But if you read my quote that you used, you will see that i specifically referred to TRUE religious values, not the obscene distorted values that led to the abuse of children , the Industrial Homes and the Magdalen Laundries. Nor did i imply that atheism had any responsibilities for these crimes. I was and am referring to the declining standars in personal and public morality, the loss of a proper sense of what is right or wrong, the fact that there is now no concept of sin, and my belief that the weakening of moral force for good exercised by all the religious denominations, despite their many faults, is one of the main contributory factors for our present malaise.

[Mike Sheehy]

I will say one thing for Mike Sheehy and MGHU they are good for a laugh with their primary school mentalities. As every one knows you can not reason with a delusion, but neither should you humour it. Mike as usual begins his silly tirade by accusing me of having said something i never said, but he was never one for letting truth get in the way of his argument.He then goes on to pose a question, the answer to which is glaringly obvious to anyone with a brain the size of a Pea, or anyone who has visited a confessional box. It is highly unlikely that anyone entering a confessional in any large City or Town and confessing to the abuse of a child, would be known by the priest, so identification would clearly be a problem. It is equally unlikely that he would receive absolution unless he agreed to atone and make restitution by surrenering himself to the police. Could the Priest risk violating the seal of confession by leaping from the Box and making a citizens arrest. Only in the deluded world of Mike Sheehy could this happen. The culprit would also probably deny having made such an admission, and any defence solicitor would have no difficulty dealing with hearsay evidence. Also by deterring the abuser from visiting a confessional , if he were so inclined, which is unlikely, the opportunity for intervention and counselling which might prevent further abuse would be lost.
I will not waste time addressing their ludicrous assertions re. the primacy of state law over Canon law as their no dispute or conflict between either of these legal codes outside of their own fevered imaginations.
I can also assure both these gentlemen and any others who share their views, that the religious people of Ireland of whatever denomination, who are still the vast majority within the Country, will not be silenced or driven out of the political or social debate. Mike suggested i might be more comfortable living in the Vatican, blind to the fact that it is he who is uncomfortable and out of step in this society, not I. Perhaps he could relocate to Red China, he has the right mentality for an authoritarian society, though i doubt he will like reality of it.
MGHU from his base in England, wants to make Ireland a godless society. He has been away to long or he would know that large tracts of Irish society already are Godless. We have violence on our streets on an increasing scale, attacks on the elderly who no longer can feel safe in their homes, drugs, racketeering, corruption in politics and business, child abuse and a growing sense of alienation and hopelessness. Do you want more of this. Can you see no link between the decline in true religious values and the decline in our society. The lying propaganda, empty rhetoric and doctrine of despair propounded by you and Mike are a large part of the problem, but the plain people of Ireland can see through it and the death of the false god of the Celtic Tiger along with the rampant immoral consumerist mentality it spawned, will hasten the return of the old values. May God bless you in your confusion

enough of your weasel words. If the police suspect that a priest has knowledge of a crime should the priest divulge everything he has been told in the confessional...yes or no ?

All that other shite you came out with is irrelevant.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

I will say one thing for Mike Sheehy and MGHU they are good for a laugh with their primary school mentalities. As every one knows you can not reason with a delusion, but neither should you humour it.

This is as far as I read, before I started to laugh. That is all I read. Pangurban to quote your good self, "As every one knows you can not reason with a delusion, but neither should you have to humour it" is what I have being saying about you the entire time. You believe in God and call us deluded, you really are a complete idiot aren't you.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

He has been away to long or he would know that large tracts of Irish society already are Godless. We have violence on our streets on an increasing scale, attacks on the elderly who no longer can feel safe in their homes, drugs, racketeering, corruption in politics and business, child abuse and a growing sense of alienation and hopelessness. Do you want more of this. Can you see no link between the decline in true religious values and the decline in our society.

I think that's a contemptible statement and anyone who agrees with it should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. It wasn't today's open atheists who raped and tortured a generation of Irish children who were placed in their care on the mistaken assumption that there was a correlation between religiosity and integrity.

Well said, Pang is in one flew over the cuckoos nest territory with his delusions. The evils of the world have seen their best days under the banners of the various Gods of the world. What a complete muppet Pang is, if he believes Atheism = Consumerism, care to visit Knock or Medjugorje, clown.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

I see where you are coming from Eamon, and to some extent  i can agree. But if you read my quote that you used, you will see that i specifically referred to TRUE religious values, not the obscene distorted values that led to the abuse of children , the Industrial Homes and the Magdalen Laundries. Nor did i imply that atheism had any responsibilities for these crimes. I was and am referring to the declining standars in personal and public morality, the loss of a proper sense of what is right or wrong, the fact that there is now no concept of sin, and my belief that the weakening of moral force for good exercised by all the religious denominations, despite their many faults, is one of the main contributory factors for our present malaise.

Atheists don't need your warped values, a good person no matter what their beliefs or lack of beliefs is a good person, a bad person is a bad one. I don't need God to explain to me right from wrong. I don't need a carrot and a stick to keep my on the good path.