Six Nations 2012

[thewobbler]

Trileac I'm still not sure what your angst is all about.

I'd be pretty sure if you asked Provincial guardians whether they'd rather spend buckets of money getting in a foreign loose head prop who nobody pays to watch, or spend that money on a fly half or a winger who puts bums on seats, then they're always going to say the latter.

Truth is, there's been very, very few front row forwards of note been generated in Irish rugby for a couple of decades now. This isn't so much an issue with the provinces as with the schools and clubs that feed them. Ulster aren't buying in the South Africa pack because they're a cheap option, they're buying them in because they can't compete up front with home grown players alone.

Giving off about this solves nothing.

All I'm getting from you Trileac is problems, not solutions. If you can recognise that the players aren't there then you should change your tone from anger/disappointment to something more accepting of the situation.

Ireland can, and will, give anyone a game in their day. Thus us remarkable, and should be applauded - not run down.

[Denn Forever]

a cull needs to happen. Out goes DOC, Heaslip, Cullen, Court, D'Arcy, O'Leary and O'Gara for starters. 

How long has Heaslip been playing? 

[Main Street]

Cull O'Gara?
say it ain't so.

[trileacman]

a cull needs to happen. Out goes DOC, Heaslip, Cullen, Court, D'Arcy, O'Leary and O'Gara for starters. 

How long has Heaslip been playing?

bout 4-5 years. Why?

[trileacman]

Trileac I'm still not sure what your angst is all about.

I'd be pretty sure if you asked Provincial guardians whether they'd rather spend buckets of money getting in a foreign loose head prop who nobody pays to watch, or spend that money on a fly half or a winger who puts bums on seats, then they're always going to say the latter.

Truth is, there's been very, very few front row forwards of note been generated in Irish rugby for a couple of decades now. This isn't so much an issue with the provinces as with the schools and clubs that feed them. Ulster aren't buying in the South Africa pack because they're a cheap option, they're buying them in because they can't compete up front with home grown players alone.

Giving off about this solves nothing.

All I'm getting from you Trileac is problems, not solutions. If you can recognise that the players aren't there then you should change your tone from anger/disappointment to something more accepting of the situation.

Ireland can, and will, give anyone a game in their day. Thus us remarkable, and should be applauded - not run down.

I seen us get beat on Sunday by the English following defeat to Wales and and a draw with the French. I'm merely highlighting faults and suggesting possible solutions. They mightn't be the right ones but there still suggestions.

You seem to be saying that we should just sit on our hands and say "aw hard luck lads, sure we done great to come as far as this." What is wrong with suggesting that in certain area's we are not preforming as well as we could and that we could possibly improve? 

anger/disappointment

What anger?? I'm not advocating the execution of anyone or burning them out of their houses, what is that supposed to mean?

If you can recognise that the players aren't there then you should change your tone from anger/disappointment to something more accepting of the situation.

So I should just accept that we got beaten and believe that we don't have the players, resources or tactics to do any better?

All I'm getting from you Trileac is problems, not solutions.

Here is a solution then, stop the provinces from filling top-level front row positions with non-Irish players. If the provinces performances start to suffer from a lack of quality scrummagers then they will take a more active and interested approach in the development and training of quality young players. Their wouldn't have to be a blanket ban but they could curtail the constant turn-over of stop-gap journeymen who make it through the squads of Munster, Leinster and Ulster. Then perhaps there would be greater opportunities for the young Irish scrummagers that Dinny named at the top of the page to develop.
That's just an idea though to go some way to aid our scrum.

Here is another "solution" for you. Play a more traditional 7, such as Peter O'Mahoney, in the back row to help our counter-rucking and defence. Or play your form players, such as Donncha Ryan, from the start of the championship. Or we could employ a consistent defensive strategy instead of drifting against the Welsh one week and rushing the French a few weeks later. Or we could have seen that we had a inside centre not up to the task of international rugby and looked for alternatives such as Bowe, McFadden, Trimble or some of the other Ulster lads.

Or maybe I should just sit back, ignore all that and say there's nothing that can be done.

[trileacman]

This is heavily compounded by the fact that the first choice front row of all 4 provinces consists of at least one south African. We can't produce international scrummagers so now we have decided we won't.

Sweeping statement alert, Leinster provide Healy, Ross and Cronin to the match 22, are they expected to provide the whole front row? And to add to that they have Strauss Irish qualified later this year and Jamie O'Hagan has played as much game time as Mike Ross and Jack McGrath is progressing nicely. Leinster are one province pulling their weight, Ulster replaced one non-Irish eligible TH with another, and he went to Munster. 

I was at the game in Twickenham in 2000 we were hammered 50-18, Gatland laid the foundations for the future as Muppet points out with 5 new caps in the next game. That is what needs to be done bottom line, a cull needs to happen. Out goes DOC, Heaslip, Cullen, Court, D'Arcy, O'Leary and O'Gara for starters.

I would hope that Cullen and O'Leary have been put to pasture, forgiving some huge injury crisis. DOC and D'Arcy are finished, if Kidney doesn't realise that then he should be told to get his coat. O'Gara is on his way out, the idea in everyone's mind should be that by the end of next years 6 nations he probably shouldn't be in an Ireland squad. Court is there until alternatives can be provided, especially one who has the reputation if not the skill-set to play on both sides of the scrum.

Heaslip is nowhere near the standard he was at 2-3 years ago but like most attacking 8's he needs to be playing of a winning pack. I think only two of Ferris, Heaslip and O'Brien can be retained. Ferris is a natural born blindside, as is Heaslip at no. 8. I believe O'Brien is really an 8 as well but since Heaslip has beat him to that shirt at Leinster he is playing as the makeshift 6. I don't think he has the physicality in the tackle though to be a true 6. What Ireland really need is a 7 though, someone to secure our own rucks and threaten the opposition's.

[Dinny Breen]

This is heavily compounded by the fact that the first choice front row of all 4 provinces consists of at least one south African. We can't produce international scrummagers so now we have decided we won't.

Sweeping statement alert, Leinster provide Healy, Ross and Cronin to the match 22, are they expected to provide the whole front row? And to add to that they have Strauss Irish qualified later this year and Jamie O'Hagan has played as much game time as Mike Ross and Jack McGrath is progressing nicely. Leinster are one province pulling their weight, Ulster replaced one non-Irish eligible TH with another, and he went to Munster. 

I was at the game in Twickenham in 2000 we were hammered 50-18, Gatland laid the foundations for the future as Muppet points out with 5 new caps in the next game. That is what needs to be done bottom line, a cull needs to happen. Out goes DOC, Heaslip, Cullen, Court, D'Arcy, O'Leary and O'Gara for starters.

Cronin they bought from Connacht, they didn't develop him as he grew up in Munster and played with Shannon. He isn't the first choice option at Leinster as a South African plays consistently at hooker. So my statement stands "the first choice front row of all 4 provinces consists of at least one south African." Add to that Heinke is at Leinster and before Healy and Ross came along Leinster's front row was dominated by mostly hired talent. Stan Wright, Ollie le Roux, Van der Linde (who didn't play much but was still signed) and to a lesser extent Will Green. Yeah leinster are way ahead of the other sides when it comes to trying to develop front row forwards.    Christ why must discussion be so blinded by provincial loyalty.

It's not about provincial loyalty it's about simple facts. I'll share something with you when O'Hagan, Cronin and Carr arrived from Connacht their conditioning was awful and Leinster have had to waste a season on getting them up to speed. Leinster provide 3 of the 5 front row forwards in an Irish squad, that will not change when Strauss qualifies. O'Hagan and McGrath will be close to pushing Healy next season, so Leinster's 1st choice, 2nd choice props next season will all be Irish qualified as will their 3 hookers. What more do you expect them to do in that matter?

Anyhow apart from our issues at TH the provinces are doing a pretty decent job, the problem with Irish rugby is the conservative selection policy of the last 10 years where we have won a paltry one 6 nations title despite having won 5 Heineken Cups in the same period. France have won 5, England 4 and Wales 3 in the that period, apart from England in 2003 I can honestly say imho those countries did not have better players than Ireland but what they did have is better coaches. We An Béal Bocht too much have under achieved and will continue to do say with Mr Passion and Loyalty at the helm. Interesting stat - Declan Kidney has selected Donnacha O'Callaghan more that any other Irish player, he is really that much better than Touhy, Ryan, Cullen or McCarthy that they never get rotated in or a shot at the jersey? Plus his selection of O'Leary is mind blowing, he has only started 6 times for Munster and is in awful awful form and seeing him play must really hurt someone like Marshall, who is having a great season for Ulster.

As for Jamie Heaslip, he needs a kick up the arse, I honestly thought he was a future Irish captain and majorly disappointed with him.

Leinster use O'Brien completely different than Ireland, he carries off 3rd and 4th phase for Leinster but Ireland we barely go 3 phases before we kick it away.  O'Brien is a six and had a better season last year at 6 for Ireland than Ferris ever achieved but I think Ferris is the better player so no quibble there.

And if anyone think Peter O'Mahony is a natural 7 they are wrong, he's played hardly any rugby in that position , the most natural 7 in Ireland at the moment is Dominic Ryan.

[Main Street]

I don't recall offhand an Irish scrum so easily and consistently steamrolled in a game. It was devastating.

On the dropping of O'Gara. That has to be inconsequential. Is he not already in the background? Sexton has the first spot and has demonstrated  especially in the last 2 games in the crucial penalty kicking, that he has grown in the required confidence.
There is no need to even mention dropping O'Gara as if his presence there was something to be cured, O'Gara is already in the background.

[muppet]

Kidney:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNzpBJzCOGI&feature=relmfu

An Ulster view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOjXUCM9K04&feature=relmfu

[seafoid]

Dinny

conservative selection policy of the last 10 years where we have won a paltry one 6 nations title despite having won 5 Heineken Cups in the same period. France have won 5, England 4 and Wales 3 in the that period

That's 12 titles plus Ireland's one in 10 years. Is that possible? 

[Dinny Breen]

Dinny

conservative selection policy of the last 10 years where we have won a paltry one 6 nations title despite having won 5 Heineken Cups in the same period. France have won 5, England 4 and Wales 3 in the that period

That's 12 titles plus Ireland's one in 10 years. Is that possible?

Sorry 12 years of the six nations, 10 years of conservative coaching since Gatland was axed.

[whitegoodman]

Felt sorry for Tom Court on saturday, he is a decent club level loose head, he is not and never will be a decent club level tight head never mind international class.  The problem is he is the closest thing we have to being able to play across the front row and he is as far a away as a lighthouse at that.  Maybe if the international rules were changed to include 2 prop replacements ala heinekin cup, this would help the irish scrum but until this we are in serious trouble in the scrum if Ross gets injured.

On the rest of the team and game on saturday it was dreadful.  Dinny is right in that we need to rid a 3rd of the team and bring in fresh talent.  This is what id like to see start against the all blacks in june but declan kidney will never pick this team

Kearney
Bowe
Cave
O Driscoll
Earls
Sexton
Reddan
O Brien
O Mahoney
Ferris
O Connell
Ryan
Ross
Best
Healy

Id also like to see the likes of Paddy McAllister, Dominic Ryan, Eoin O Malley, Nevin Spence, Eoin Madigan and Dave Kearney brought on tour and O Gara, Darcy, O Callaghan, Jennings,  and O Leary told thanks for ur time but that is it.

Not a chance it will happen though.  Could you imagine how many grand slams we could have won and how we would have went in 2 world cups if steady eddie hadnt of sneaked his way into Gatlands job.

And by the way trileacman Ulster dont have a south african prop.............they do have an all black one though

[trileacman]

Kidney:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNzpBJzCOGI&feature=relmfu

An Ulster view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOjXUCM9K04&feature=relmfu

Love that Ulster accent!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxFSLrfQ7rA

[orangeman]

Hartley has previous disciplinary issues and this latest one will not go down well.
England hooker Dylan Hartley faces a disciplinary hearing after being cited for an alleged biting incident during the Six Nations match against Ireland.

The Irish flanker Stephen Ferris drew attention to it during the first half of the match, but the referee Nigel Owens did not see anything himself.

The lowest suspension for biting is 12 weeks, the top entry level 24 weeks, with a maximum sanction of four years.

An independent Six Nations disciplinary committee will hear the case.

[Celt_Man]

Dirty bastard