Armagh Vs Derry

[Spiritof98]

Terible, terible performance from Armagh. It has been said before but it is plain to see that Paul Grimley departure is having a huge knock on effect within this team. There was no gameplan on show at all and the players didn't seem to know what to do with the ball once in possession.

On the positive side the cross lads, Duffy and hopefully in the future Clarke and Mallon to return. add McGeeney, and Marsden thats  9 possible starters compared to yesterdays starting team.

Although Peader Toal hasn't took the national league by storm I definately thought Armagh missed him yesterday!!

[brokencrossbar1]

Disappointing result and understandibly criticism being meted out by the usual suspects to the management.  Joe has to take responsibility for some of the current situation.  The fallout from the Grimley episode has been longer in dissolving and could have been handled better. 

I would, however, temper some of the criticism with some straight forward facts.

Firstly, there is a significant amount of potential first team players not playing, as Spirit says at least 9.  Any team that loses that amount of talent will be severely compromised.

Secondly, the management are doing what many supporters over recent years have asked them to do and that is play as many fringe players as possible.  This, to my mind, is what the League is to be used for.  Experimentation with players, tactics, gameplans.  If it doesn't work then it doesn't work.  It is better to know that in March than in July.  If the managemnet has picked the players and they have failed o take thier opportunitites that is the players faults and not the management.  If the gameplan has not worked that is the managemnents fault.  The thing is these things can be changed at this stage.

Thirdly, in the greater scheme of the years goals this is still pre-season.  Players are no doubt doing stamina work as the grounding for the summer.  I would like to see how sharp Donegal are come the first round of the championship?  It is all about getting players to peak at the right time in a season and Armagh are hopefully 4-5 months off needing to peak.  The people who are shouting now about Armagh looking lacklustre would be the same posters who are shouting in August that Armagh look burnt out and peaked too early.

As regards the Philly Loughran issue, I think that blaming JK for him going downhill so badly is deflecting the blame the wrong way.  Joe made a mistake in 2003 by playing him at wing forward.  However, if a player's confidence is so badly shot by a single match then in my view he does not have the mental strenght to truly make it.  He has been given numerous chances over the last 3 years to show what he has to offer and he has not taken those opportunities.  If a player cannot regain his confidence sufficiently in 3 years then he is not up to it.

The final thing is it is March 12th today, not May 12th.  Armagh have a good period of time to get the problems sorted out.  Yesterday may be the kick that the players and management need to get the whole thing going again. 

[Malone Aristocrat]

Massive shot in the arm for derry football yesterday. irrespective of how inept armagh were, derry started with a determination that said they weren't for losing.

super shows from mcguckin, mccloy and conway and glimpses of class from lockhart, gilligan and lynch were enough on the day but there's much more n the tank with the two bradleys and diver to come in and strengthen the team. the spread yesterday shows the scoring power in the team if there was a proper system instead of just getting the ball to paddy every time!

By the way armagh lads... how the hell aidan o'rourke isn't playing on that armagh team is beyond me... but cheered me up yesterday!

[Armamike]

Very poor display by Armagh, and would have expected much better from players and management. Derry played quite well, but were made to look good. Basically, they just had too much time and space on the ball.  If only it was a dour struggle after all! Hard to know where to start to make sense of it.  Derry were comfortable, too comfortable, all over the pitch for the full 70 mins (forget about the mini revival last 10 mins). Starting at the back the keeper had one of his poorer games, full backs did okay, but the half back line was nowhere - no cover at all for the full back line.  Far too open down the middle.  Looks like McGeeney is needed at CHB asap.  Didn't win enough of the breaking ball around the middle and the 2 midfielders didn't get any help here from the half backs and half forwards. Lavery started very well with a few good catches but faded badly.  Half forwards were as poor as the half backs.  In hindsight, Charlie Vernon was on a hiding to nothing up against Lockhart. Maybe wing forward is the best place to play him.  Paddy McKeever and Martin O'Rourke (first half) can have no excuses though.  Our full forwards didn't get out in front of their men and didn't win enough of the high ball, though to be fair the ball going in to them was very poor. I would like to have seen Toal and O'Rourke tried out, but i'm not sure they would have got much joy out of that Derry full back line which was excellent. 

Armagh have been here before at this time of the year and improved a lot later in the year.  At this stage they have to try to get back to the basics, starting with tightening up in the half back line.

Looks like we will do very well to avoid division 3.

[Six Inch Nail]

Regarding yesterdays match, a couple of points:

1. McKinney was only partly at fault for the goal.  Paudie McCreesh (who is playing fairly well) stood rooted to the ground and left McKinney with no choice only go for the ball.  McCreesh should have either challenged for the ball or held his man off and let McKinney have a free catch;

2. The full back line could not be faulted;

3. The half back line was poor, with McCreesh being the best of them.  Although I'm still not convinced that he is good enough to make it at county level;

4. I am one of McGranes biggest fans, and I also feel that Lavery is our best bet for a partner for McGrane this year.  However, we were totally outrun in this sector with James Comway in particular giving us alot of bother;

5. In the half forward line, Paddy McKeever was and is anonymous.  As was said before Martin O'Rourke didn't start the best but came into it well and always leaves everything on the field.  Vernon, just because a man is capable of kicking a couple of points from the middle of the field doesn't mean that he can play in the forwards.  I played most of my career in the halfbacks and kicked a few points.  However the odd time I was tried in the forwards it didn't happen for me.  The reason being that there is a big difference getting the ball with your back to goal than there is coming onto the ball.  Also, it doesn't come naturally for a defender to be able to shake a marker - this is what forwards do.  Get Vernon into the halfback line and we can judge him then;

6. In the full forward line, Keenan did well enough and you can't argue with 3 or 4 points from play.  Stevie was well marked, McGuickan is one of the best man markers in the game.  Don't get me started on Mackin;

7. Marsden will come good and will be a major help and I think Toal has to be tried in the full forward line.  McGeeney tightened the thing up abit when he came on, so there are some plus points.

Malone Aristocrat, I think you are abit hard on Gilligan.  I thought he give a masterclass display yesterday, he was involved in almost everything Derry did in the first half.

[pintsofguinness]

BC

Joe has to take responsibility for some of the current situation.

Yes BC he clearly took repsonsibility in the Mirror today when's he's quoted as saying, twice, that the players didn't do what they were suppose to be doing.  Talk about washing your hands!
He also felt McCreesh and Keenan didn't do themselves any harm. 

1. McKinney was only partly at fault for the goal.  Paudie McCreesh (who is playing fairly well) stood rooted to the ground and left McKinney with no choice only go for the ball.  McCreesh should have either challenged for the ball or held his man off and let McKinney have a free catch;

Not only that but we had all but two of our players in our own half yet Derry were able to pick out their man (didn't see who it was, up the other end of the ground), unmarked, with any amount of room, who's attempt at a point led to the goal. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

As regards the Philly Loughran issue, I think that blaming JK for him going downhill so badly is deflecting the blame the wrong way.  Joe made a mistake in 2003 by playing him at wing forward.  However, if a player's confidence is so badly shot by a single match then in my view he does not have the mental strenght to truly make it.  He has been given numerous chances over the last 3 years to show what he has to offer and he has not taken those opportunities.  If a player cannot regain his confidence sufficiently in 3 years then he is not up to it.

Agree with a lot of your post BC. Just one query though - it was me that first raised the Philip Loughran issue with the 2003 All Ireland Final. I did not mean to imply that that match, or indeed by connection management, was the reason for Philip Loughran's demise. I am rather regretting a potential that has been lost/thrown away! I stand by my assertion that we have not seen him in form since 2003!

[Orchard Warrior]

Loughran is back on the panel and will soon be available again. he's also in good nick so should be pushing hard. it's unfair to judge the application or commitment of any player who is injured and unable to make his own statement on the field.

Granted morale is very low at the moment for a number of off field reasons but joe has a good habit of picking things up for the championship. marsden's return is good and there are moves afoot to get the best possible panel together.

form is temporary

[Rufus T Firefly]

it's unfair to judge the application or commitment of any player who is injured and unable to make his own statement on the field.

Again, I want to state that I'm not having a go at Philip Loughran! I was a fan and regret the loss he has been to the set up. If he is coming back and is in great form, great!

[pintsofguinness]

I wouldn't worry to much about what Orchard Warrior says Rufus.

[Bogball XV]

I really thought Armagh had three big problems today.  1 No half back line worth talking about.  2 No half forward line 3.  No one able to make an impact at midfield.  At least when the Cross boys get back 1 and 2 should be addressed, not sure about 3 though

I think we're putting far to much emphasis on the cross boys.  Who have we coming back, Aaron in the half back line and Oisin maybe in the full forward line because he hasn't the legs for half forward.  That's all worth talking about.

Would your man Hanratty not be in with a shout too - he's impressed me this year anyway, must have been m.o.m in the ulster final and seems to have pace to burn?

[PatDaly]

Thirdly, in the greater scheme of the years goals this is still pre-season.  Players are no doubt doing stamina work as the grounding for the summer.  I would like to see how sharp Donegal are come the first round of the championship?  It is all about getting players to peak at the right time in a season and Armagh are hopefully 4-5 months off needing to peak.  The people who are shouting now about Armagh looking lacklustre would be the same posters who are shouting in August that Armagh look burnt out and peaked too early.

Could it be argued that the Cross players will have already peaked for 2007 with the club final being played on Saturday March 17th? It would be fairly ironic if the Cross players are the ones who fail Armagh later in the year because they are burnt out from their club commitments.

If Cross win on Saturday will several of the Cross players be drafted back into the Armagh starting 15 for the game against Down on March 25th? Surely this would be a mistake and one that Joe would hardly make?

[Smokin Joe]

I wouldn't worry to much about what Orchard Warrior says Rufus.

Pints, it is obvious from Orchard Warrior's previous posts that he has the inside word on the Armagh set up. 
Why are you so forward in disregarding his post?


On another point, if all the stories were true about Paddy Og (or one of the suits) telling Geezer that his services were no longer required last back end then I can't see how there can be any team spirt left in that dressing room.

[brokencrossbar1]

Agree with a lot of your post BC. Just one query though - it was me that first raised the Philip Loughran issue with the 2003 All Ireland Final. I did not mean to imply that that match, or indeed by connection management, was the reason for Philip Loughran's demise. I am rather regretting a potential that has been lost/thrown away! I stand by my assertion that we have not seen him in form since 2003!

I know your form Rufus and I was not aiming my snipe at you.  Somone else blamed Joe for the loss of Loughran's form and I do not agree with that.

BC

Quote
Joe has to take responsibility for some of the current situation.
Yes BC he clearly took repsonsibility in the Mirror today when's he's quoted as saying, twice, that the players didn't do what they were suppose to be doing.  Talk about washing your hands!
He also felt McCreesh and Keenan didn't do themselves any harm. 

I have no doubt that what Joe said in the papers was said to the players faces.  He no doubt was asked questions and answered them honestly.  It is not the way I would conduct manangement if I was there but perhaps there is method in his thinking.

Loughran is back on the panel and will soon be available again. he's also in good nick so should be pushing hard. it's unfair to judge the application or commitment of any player who is injured and unable to make his own statement on the field.

OW I did not doubt that Philly has ability and I truly wish he could fulfill it.  I was responding to a criticism of Joe Kernan when a poster blamed him for Philly not playing well.  He has had many opportunities over recent years and has not taken them.  If he has be so seriously hampered by injury then he should have been given proper opportunity to get it sorted out rather than being pushed in to games when not fully fit.

Posted by: Bogball XV 
Insert Quote
Quote from: pintsofguinness on March 11, 2007, 08:21:41 PM
Quote
I really thought Armagh had three big problems today.  1 No half back line worth talking about.  2 No half forward line 3.  No one able to make an impact at midfield.  At least when the Cross boys get back 1 and 2 should be addressed, not sure about 3 though
I think we're putting far to much emphasis on the cross boys.  Who have we coming back, Aaron in the half back line and Oisin maybe in the full forward line because he hasn't the legs for half forward.  That's all worth talking about.

Would your man Hanratty not be in with a shout too - he's impressed me this year anyway, must have been m.o.m in the ulster final and seems to have pace to burn

I think that outside of the palyers on last years Armagh panel Johnny Hanratty and David McKenna would be potentials.  They are both only 19 and this is their first year playing senior football so it is too early in my opinion.  Tony Kernan is another possible.  Much will depend on the outcome and performances in the Final to gauge how they deal with the big pressure.

[Could it be argued that the Cross players will have already peaked for 2007 with the club final being played on Saturday March 17th? It would be fairly ironic if the Cross players are the ones who fail Armagh later in the year because they are burnt out from their club commitments.

If Cross win on Saturday will several of the Cross players be drafted back into the Armagh starting 15 for the game against Down on March 25th? Surely this would be a mistake and one that Joe would hardly make?
/quote]

Pat I would like to think that if anything the Cross players will be raring to go.  Peaking is not just about the physical end of things but also the mental one.  A new challenge and a different voice could push them on.  There is no doubt that the current Cross panelists for Armagh, bar the Kernans, have one more go at Sam and knowing their mentality they are very poor losers.  This will see them pushing things on I believe.

I think they will have until after the Down game for a rest.

[Over the Bar]

Any truth in the rumour that Houlie & Jarlath Burns are talking about rejoining the squad?