Newsflash Sinn Fein are no longer Republicans

[muppet]

Good one, Oraisteach.

Sorry - I didn't mean to be cryptic. It's just that, unless I've been misreading him for years, I don't think Jim would consider himself a unionist.

This is one of the many ironies of the politics of this island, some of the Republicans can be so blindly anti-26C (let's call it Ireland) that they appear to occupy (sorry) much the same ground (sorry again) as Loyalists when looking from the south.

And another irony is that some self-proclaimed "republicans" and "anti-partitionists" in the 26 counties probably couldn't give a damn if Ireland never was reunited.

Ah yes, the auld ideological hierarchy.

The thinking seems to be: Anyone who isn't willing to go as far as me to achieve........doesn't really want it at all or is a lesser person.

[Nally Stand]

Good one, Oraisteach.

Sorry - I didn't mean to be cryptic. It's just that, unless I've been misreading him for years, I don't think Jim would consider himself a unionist.

This is one of the many ironies of the politics of this island, some of the Republicans can be so blindly anti-26C (let's call it Ireland) that they appear to occupy (sorry) much the same ground (sorry again) as Loyalists when looking from the south.

And another irony is that some self-proclaimed "republicans" and "anti-partitionists" in the 26 counties probably couldn't give a damn if Ireland never was reunited.

Ah yes, the auld ideological hierarchy.

The thinking seems to be: Anyone who isn't willing to go as far as me to achieve........doesn't really want it at all or is a lesser person.

Not quite. You pointed out the irony of 6 county Republicans being hostile to the 26 counties. Whats wrong with me pointing out the irony of 26 county "republicans" being blissfully uninterested in Irish Unity? Is it only OK to point out some ironies? Sorry. I didn't realise.

[muppet]

Good one, Oraisteach.

Sorry - I didn't mean to be cryptic. It's just that, unless I've been misreading him for years, I don't think Jim would consider himself a unionist.

This is one of the many ironies of the politics of this island, some of the Republicans can be so blindly anti-26C (let's call it Ireland) that they appear to occupy (sorry) much the same ground (sorry again) as Loyalists when looking from the south.

And another irony is that some self-proclaimed "republicans" and "anti-partitionists" in the 26 counties probably couldn't give a damn if Ireland never was reunited.

Ah yes, the auld ideological hierarchy.

The thinking seems to be: Anyone who isn't willing to go as far as me to achieve........doesn't really want it at all or is a lesser person.

Not quite. You pointed out the irony of 6 county Republicans being hostile to the 26 counties. Whats wrong with me pointing out the irony of 26 county "republicans" being blissfully uninterested in Irish Unity? Is it only OK to point out some ironies? Sorry. I didn't realise.

I wasn't talking about you. You apparently appear to be talking about me.

Of course I want a United Ireland. However I am not willing to justify the blowing up of anyone to achieve it. That doesn't make me a lesser Irishman in any capacity and doesn't mean I don't want a 32 county Ireland.

[Nally Stand]

Good one, Oraisteach.

Sorry - I didn't mean to be cryptic. It's just that, unless I've been misreading him for years, I don't think Jim would consider himself a unionist.

This is one of the many ironies of the politics of this island, some of the Republicans can be so blindly anti-26C (let's call it Ireland) that they appear to occupy (sorry) much the same ground (sorry again) as Loyalists when looking from the south.

And another irony is that some self-proclaimed "republicans" and "anti-partitionists" in the 26 counties probably couldn't give a damn if Ireland never was reunited.

Ah yes, the auld ideological hierarchy.

The thinking seems to be: Anyone who isn't willing to go as far as me to achieve........doesn't really want it at all or is a lesser person.

Not quite. You pointed out the irony of 6 county Republicans being hostile to the 26 counties. Whats wrong with me pointing out the irony of 26 county "republicans" being blissfully uninterested in Irish Unity? Is it only OK to point out some ironies? Sorry. I didn't realise.

I wasn't talking about you. You apparently appear to be talking about me.

Of course I want a United Ireland. However I am not willing to justify the blowing up of anyone to achieve it. That doesn't make me a lesser Irishman in any capacity and doesn't mean I don't want a 32 county Ireland.

To be honest I actually wasn't talking about you in the slightest.

[muppet]

Good one, Oraisteach.

Sorry - I didn't mean to be cryptic. It's just that, unless I've been misreading him for years, I don't think Jim would consider himself a unionist.

This is one of the many ironies of the politics of this island, some of the Republicans can be so blindly anti-26C (let's call it Ireland) that they appear to occupy (sorry) much the same ground (sorry again) as Loyalists when looking from the south.

And another irony is that some self-proclaimed "republicans" and "anti-partitionists" in the 26 counties probably couldn't give a damn if Ireland never was reunited.

Ah yes, the auld ideological hierarchy.

The thinking seems to be: Anyone who isn't willing to go as far as me to achieve........doesn't really want it at all or is a lesser person.

Not quite. You pointed out the irony of 6 county Republicans being hostile to the 26 counties. Whats wrong with me pointing out the irony of 26 county "republicans" being blissfully uninterested in Irish Unity? Is it only OK to point out some ironies? Sorry. I didn't realise.

I wasn't talking about you. You apparently appear to be talking about me.

Of course I want a United Ireland. However I am not willing to justify the blowing up of anyone to achieve it. That doesn't make me a lesser Irishman in any capacity and doesn't mean I don't want a 32 county Ireland.

To be honest I actually wasn't talking about you in the slightest.

Fair enough.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Jim, EG, serious question here.  No ulterior motive.

I know that you think a UI is out of the question in the foreseeable future, if indeed ever, but I'm sure you'd concede that there is a chance of it happening, albeit miniscule in your view.

Imagine a world where the surprising does happen—Foinavon wins the National, Armagh wins an AI title, NI beats England—In that seemingly low chance scenario, if a UI happened to garner enough votes on both sides of the border to be ratified, what would that new entity look like to be most palatable to unionists like yourselves?

Firstly, I am not a unionist.  Coming from the "Free State" I wouldn't label myself one way or the other.

I wouldn't rule anything out but find it hard to see a United Ireland coming in our lifetime.

With the GFA, I see the decision lying with the people of Northern Ireland and the views of the Republic fairly irrelevant.  If the majority in Northern Ireland wanted it, I wouldn't see an issues with a vote in the Republic gaining a majority.  (Sentiment alone would carry a vote).  However I just can't see the people of Northern Ireland looking for this.  It now lies in their gift, not anyone else's.   From what I can see that would be the prevailing political view south of the border.

As for the current Republic not being palatable to Republicans I doubt very much that having gained a majority in Northern Ireland that the Shinners would say no to a United Ireland in any circumstance. 

I have no principled objection to the idea of a United Ireland but neither do I have a principled objection to partition (at least under existing political arrangements).  I don't see unionism wanting to (or capable of ) getting Northern Ireland back to the ways of the old Stormont government which is the only thing that would exercise the numbers required to effect change.

It's just a view, but one I guess is fairly prevalent.

/Jim.

[AQMP]

The ordinary man in the street SF supporter from the north, I believe has been fed a darby o'gill utopian idea of what a united ireland would look like whilst ignoring the elephants in the room (i.e unionism and the reality of how poorly the free state is currently governed). Yes they have in recent times talked about "a shared future" etc but I would doubt that rhetoric alone has convinced unionism in any way. About time the SF leadership have at least decided to change the record and come at the AI question from a different angle, but the economic problems and the gombeen politics of the dail makes it a tough sell.

I don't believe the "ordinary man in the street" has been fed anything of the sort, in fact there has been a distinct lack of serious discussion as to what the reunited state will look like (feel free to point me in the right direction in case I missed it). SF (IMO) have been a lone voice in trying to stimulate this debate but the fact that most people assume that they favour NI being subsumed into the current ROI, illustrates very clearly they haven't been getting their message across.

Ah right.

So when everyone thought that SF simply wanted "Brits Out" and "A Nation Once Again", it was we  who were wrong. Silly Us - however could we have got that idea? 

Oh well, in the meantime here's something else you can put the "ordinary man in the street" right about, Donagh Ulick.

One million Unionists aren't going to be tricked into anything, by the same lying, beardy fcuker who first spent 30 years trying to bomb us into submission, and then 10 years trying to negotiate us into it.

So if this current speculation is just the opening shot of a SF campaign to ease everyone into the idea that their (SF's) target is now rather less than we had all been led to believe, that might fool their own supporters - God knows, they've been gullible enough to swallow whatever s h i t Connolly House spews out up to now  )

But Unionists will recognise it for what it is, i.e. merely the latest step in a process of backtracking and capitulation by a chastened loser. And after all this time, we're not going to throw away "a winning hand" now!   

Now leave David Ford out of this!

[sheamy]

There's nothing to join. Like the 6-county state, the so-called republic has also failed. Failed its people and its people have in turn failed it by not rising up against the criminals who bankrupted the state. A sad story of guilt and greed from start to finish. The Gaelic spirit is as strong as it has ever been in the north of the country. Historically the most Gaelic of all provinces it's largely irrelevant who signs the dole cheques. The notion of an underclass has largely been defeated now and we're free to make the future whatever we want. The green flag might fly over Dublin castle but it means very little to peoples lives. The landlords and the financiers have won. And they're not all English either. The 6 counties are a line on a balance sheet in London. Nothing more. Time to dream it all up again for all of us who live on this island...

Suggestion 1: Follow the example of the property developers. Rename the country and start it up again debt free 

[hairierarea]

I can never understand it when relatively young people confidently predict that there will not be a united Ireland in their lifetime. If we can learn anything from history, it is that the medium- to long-term future is completely unpredictable. I mean, one of the most sure-fire things that we can expect from the future (as they seem largely beyond human control now) is that there will be massively disruptive climate change, reduction in biodiversity, population imbalances and economic chaos. Yet because of a scrap of paper that no-one loves from 1998, it is inconceivable for some people that there will be any changes in the constitutional relationships in these islands...

I'll mention two tendencies that I think will have serious implications the relationship between north and south on the island

1. Many have cited the poll which apparently has many (a majority?) of Catholics favouring the Union at the moment. For this to make sense many of these 'unionists' must be SF voters. Now I don't think that this is completely illogical. They may favour a Northern Ireland where, to put it bluntly, Catholics have a well-protected social, economic and cultural status, but also where a) the British exchequer funds a more generous welfare system and widespread public sector employment with generous pensions and perks and b) gives Southerners time to sort out their economic problems to make a united Ireland in the longer term more practicable and attractive. The economic hit taken by the south seems for many to mark the final nail in the coffin for a united Ireland. However, the implications for the North of the UK's economic woes has not wound itself out yet. Catholics may be happy enough with a marginal role in that state so long as the money keeps flowing, but I would suggest such loyalty is of the fairweather variety. If Northern Catholics are to be dirt poor, I would imagine they would rather be dirt poor in an all-Ireland state where they have a more central role as citizens. The demographic question, or the sectarian headcount, becomes central once more.

2. Related to the above, and with serious implications for the attachment of Northern Protestants to the Union, we don't know what's going to happen with Scotland. There isn't an immediate prospect of them leaving the Union, but surely it is not inconceivable in the medium- to long-term, particularly given the convulsions we are living through. The GFA ties Northern Ireland into a carefully balanced series of relationships across the two islands and within the EU, but i would imagine that, regardless of what happens in NI, all of these will come under serious strain in the coming years.

I'm not suggesting that because of these reasons a united Ireland is 'obvious and inevitable' as Gerry Adams once said. But surely it can't be written off so casually given the radical changes that lie in store for us all.

[Hardy]

Good one, Oraisteach.

Sorry - I didn't mean to be cryptic. It's just that, unless I've been misreading him for years, I don't think Jim would consider himself a unionist.

This is one of the many ironies of the politics of this island, some of the Republicans can be so blindly anti-26C (let's call it Ireland) that they appear to occupy (sorry) much the same ground (sorry again) as Loyalists when looking from the south.

And another irony is that some self-proclaimed "republicans" and "anti-partitionists" in the 26 counties probably couldn't give a damn if Ireland never was reunited.

As a matter of semantics and maybe even pedantry, it's only an irony if you confuse republicanism (as opposed to Republicanism or pseudo-republicanism) with nationalism.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Catholics may be happy enough with a marginal role in that state so long as the money keeps flowing, but I would suggest such loyalty is of the fairweather variety. If Northern Catholics are to be dirt poor, I would imagine they would rather be dirt poor in an all-Ireland state where they have a more central role as citizens. The demographic question, or the sectarian headcount, becomes central once more.

Questions:

How are Catholics marginalised in Northern Ireland of today?
How would this be addressed by a United Ireland?
How would a united ireland guard against marginalising Northern Protestants?

/Jim.

[Rossfan]

the British exchequer funds a more generous welfare system

Ehhhhh?

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

I can never understand it when relatively young people confidently predict that there will not be a united Ireland in their lifetime. If we can learn anything from history, it is that the medium- to long-term future is completely unpredictable. I mean, one of the most sure-fire things that we can expect from the future (as they seem largely beyond human control now) is that there will be massively disruptive climate change, reduction in biodiversity, population imbalances and economic chaos. Yet because of a scrap of paper that no-one loves from 1998, it is inconceivable for some people that there will be any changes in the constitutional relationships in these islands...

I'll mention two tendencies that I think will have serious implications the relationship between north and south on the island

1. Many have cited the poll which apparently has many (a majority?) of Catholics favouring the Union at the moment. For this to make sense many of these 'unionists' must be SF voters. Now I don't think that this is completely illogical. They may favour a Northern Ireland where, to put it bluntly, Catholics have a well-protected social, economic and cultural status, but also where a) the British exchequer funds a more generous welfare system and widespread public sector employment with generous pensions and perks and b) gives Southerners time to sort out their economic problems to make a united Ireland in the longer term more practicable and attractive. The economic hit taken by the south seems for many to mark the final nail in the coffin for a united Ireland. However, the implications for the North of the UK's economic woes has not wound itself out yet. Catholics may be happy enough with a marginal role in that state so long as the money keeps flowing, but I would suggest such loyalty is of the fairweather variety. If Northern Catholics are to be dirt poor, I would imagine they would rather be dirt poor in an all-Ireland state where they have a more central role as citizens. The demographic question, or the sectarian headcount, becomes central once more.

2. Related to the above, and with serious implications for the attachment of Northern Protestants to the Union, we don't know what's going to happen with Scotland. There isn't an immediate prospect of them leaving the Union, but surely it is not inconceivable in the medium- to long-term, particularly given the convulsions we are living through. The GFA ties Northern Ireland into a carefully balanced series of relationships across the two islands and within the EU, but i would imagine that, regardless of what happens in NI, all of these will come under serious strain in the coming years.

I'm not suggesting that because of these reasons a united Ireland is 'obvious and inevitable' as Gerry Adams once said. But surely it can't be written off so casually given the radical changes that lie in store for us all.

Well put.
The handouts from Westminister are being cut at a greater and faster rate then ever before - the scary thing is that the pain has still to be felt by many here.
Here's a thought, as things get tougher here, unionists/protestants may decide to vote with their feet and head across to Britain or further afield (as they did in the past when times where bad). this would obviously then have an impact on the possibility of a UI.
EG your "1 million" maybe reduced even more!! 

[hairierarea]

Questions:

How are Catholics marginalised in Northern Ireland of today?
How would this be addressed by a United Ireland?
How would a united ireland guard against marginalising Northern Protestants?

I'm not making a moral argument that a united Ireland would be some sort of utopia, just that circumstances can easily change to make it more realistic than many today seem to imagine.

BTW, I don't mean to say that Catholics are marginalised in NI today (though I would argue that many of all denominations have been left behind in the current arrangement), more that all of the people of NI have a marginal role as citizens in the UK. Seriously, what leverage do NI politicians have with Whitehall in the amount of money that is pumped across the water, particularly as the troubles recede from people's memories? The rows that will kick off over the Barnett formula as English taxpayers start complaining about funding the Scots/Welsh/NIish will, IMHO, make it more likely that these decisions will take place outside of the influence of all the citizens in NI.

To my mind, it would be obvious that Northern Protestants would have more influence in a United Ireland, simply as a reflection of the arithmetic. Whether that's a good reason for favouring a UI is another question, of course; we would all have most influence in an independent NI, yet I don't favour that personally. 

Ehhhhh?/quote]

Badly worded perhaps, but I meant the overall public package which people in NI have access to - the NHS, pensions etc. Anecdotally, I have heard many who describe themselves as nationalists gives this as a reason for being content with things as they stand. There is also the consideration that, even before the crash in the South, there would likely have been reform of welfare provision for Northerners - many Celtic Tiger blowhards were citing NI's dependence on the public sector and welfare as a reason why they wouldn't risk their affluence by integrating such a stale and sluggish economy into their own vibrant creation. How times have changed etc etc... 

[Maguire01]

Here's a thought, as things get tougher here, unionists/protestants may decide to vote with their feet and head across to Britain or further afield (as they did in the past when times where bad). this would obviously then have an impact on the possibility of a UI.

They're not likely to be the only ones that bail out, are they?