Short Strand under attack

[Evil Genius]

You see, that sort of thinking is actually part of the problem, for what you are saying is that relying on the PSNI isn't good enough, people have the right to take the law into their own hands

Well do you think it is honestly good enough that there were 700 rioters last night, but one women was arrested over the course of the night, will this inject the people of the short strand with confidence in the police force when they read that statistic?

Like most people on this Board (I guess), I have reservations about the PSNI reaction (or lack of). That said, I was not actually there, nor have I ever had to police a riot, so I will reserve judgement on their performance until we know more.

But whether one approves of the PSNI's policing or not, two wrongs do not make a right. And whatever else the answer, someone* taking a gun and letting loose in the middle of a riot is certainly not it - as I'm sure the unfortunate photographer would agree.

* - As the PSNI have averred, the gunman is most likely not just "someone". Ordinary people do not have guns in their homes, therefore the gunman was almost certainly either a gangster/drug dealer etc, or was a paramilitary. And regarding the latter, seeing as Alex Maskey & Co were on the scene, it seems very likely to me that the gunman won't have been a Provo who "forgot" to decommission his weapon back in the day. Therefore it's more likely to have been a Dissident paramilitary. In which case, would you really rather put your faith in some Gangster, or some Real IRA man, over the PSNI? Because if you do, then the best I can say for you is that you're an idiot.

[LeoMc]

The PSNI have confirmed it was dissident republicans that shot the photographer last night.

Really ? Well that must be the truth then. I wonder how they know ?.

Everyone was quick to accept their word when they said it was the UVF started it!

[Oraisteach]

EG, your response carries a sort of a smug, suburban superiority, a condescending know-it-all-ness, conveyed in words such as "Oh dear, you see . . . ."  before you explain that the residents of the Short Strand should place their faith in the PSNI.

In a civil society, of course, that would be the reasonable thing to do, to believe in the dependability of the police force, but the onus of responsibility in this case falls squarely on the shoulders of the police to show that they are deserving of respect/support.

I dearly want the PSNI to succeed, to demonstrate that it is no longer the lackey of loyalism, that it applies a just law fairly and equally.  But, so far at least, in this situation, it has done little to assuage Nationalist fears about its impartiality.

Like you, I do not sanction the use of guns, but then again, like you, I imagine, I'm not trapped in the Short Strand.  If I were a resident of that area, I'm not sure what I'd do.  Given the long history of pogroms and persecution against Catholics in the North, ignored by and sometimes promoted by the police, I would perhaps feel more secure by placing my defense in my own hands rather than in the police's.  I certainly wouldn't want a replay of Bombay Street or the Short Strand itself. 

I don't know who fired shots from the Nationalist side—dissident Republicans, the PIRA, or perhaps even a lone and terrified resident who'd got his hands on a gun years ago in readiness for such an eventuality, I don't know.  But I do agree with you that this plays perfectly into the hands of those who would seek to scuttle the GFA.

This, then, is a significant test for the PSNI.  Will it act in a way to bolster Nationalist faith in its integrity, or will it merely perform as the RUC did?  So far, I fear, it is falling short of the mark, but I'll wait till I learn more, earnestly hoping that it acts as it ought to and not relinquish protection of the Short Strand community to eager gunmen.

[ziggysego]

I would agree with EG, in that I hate seeing Nationalists and Republicans reacting to the attacks coming from the UVF. It is just what they want and the dissidents want. However, I can understand where they are coming from. From their PoV, the PSNI are seemingly doing nothing to help them. Like yourself EG, I have no idea about riot control, but when you compare this to the Holylands, there are going to be suspicions, rightly or wrongly.

In the perfect world, the PSNI would be in there over the last few nights; lifting the rioters there and then and lifting them during the day too. It's a big test for the PSNI now, they have to be seen to being proactive in the Short Strand or Nationalist/Republican confidence will disappear and play into the hands of the Real IRA.

[LeoMc]

The PSNI have confirmed it was dissident republicans that shot the photographer last night.

Really ? Well that must be the truth then. I wonder how they know ?.

Has a known dissident republican been arrested? or did the person who fired the shot carry round a large sign stating that he was in fact a dissident republican. stuff like that makes my blood boil. I wouldn't condemn any member of the shortstrand community who used a gun to defend their community and property against these loyalist thugs, although it was obviously unfortunate that a photographer got innocent injured. But this doesn't make them a dissident republican.

Is it OK for the Police or Photograhers or any innocent Loyalists living on the other side of the divide to shoot back to defend their colleagues or neighbours?

[TheOrangeAndBlack]

They were quicker into the Holylands

100% correct

[LeoMc]

I would agree with EG, in that I hate seeing Nationalists and Republicans reacting to the attacks coming from the UVF. It is just what they want and the dissidents want. However, I can understand where they are coming from. From their PoV, the PSNI are seemingly doing nothing to help them. Like yourself EG, I have no idea about riot control, but when you compare this to the Holylands, there are going to be suspicions, rightly or wrongly.

In the perfect world, the PSNI would be in there over the last few nights; lifting the rioters there and then and lifting them during the day too. It's a big test for the PSNI now, they have to be seen to being proactive in the Short Strand or Nationalist/Republican confidence will disappear and play into the hands of the Real IRA.

Students are easy. They will fess up and pay the fines to keep their names from getting back home.
For the scum riotting it would be a badge of honour in their community to be lifted. Say nothing and you are out in 48.

FFS News reports are saying they were wearing surgical gloves. They are getting more forensically aware and are going to leave as little prosecutable evidence as possible "See me I wuz only walkin home when thon big bad fenian cop lifted me for nathin" CSI has a lot to answer for.

[ziggysego]

I would agree with EG, in that I hate seeing Nationalists and Republicans reacting to the attacks coming from the UVF. It is just what they want and the dissidents want. However, I can understand where they are coming from. From their PoV, the PSNI are seemingly doing nothing to help them. Like yourself EG, I have no idea about riot control, but when you compare this to the Holylands, there are going to be suspicions, rightly or wrongly.

In the perfect world, the PSNI would be in there over the last few nights; lifting the rioters there and then and lifting them during the day too. It's a big test for the PSNI now, they have to be seen to being proactive in the Short Strand or Nationalist/Republican confidence will disappear and play into the hands of the Real IRA.

Students are easy. They will fess up and pay the fines to keep their names from getting back home.
For the scum riotting it would be a badge of honour in their community to be lifted. Say nothing and you are out in 48.

FFS News reports are saying they were wearing surgical gloves. They are getting more forensically aware and are going to leave as little prosecutable evidence as possible "See me I wuz only walkin home when thon big bad fenian cop lifted me for nathin" CSI has a lot to answer for.

Not rightly or wrongly about the students. Rightly or wrongly about the PSNI's reaction to the Loyalists in the Short Strand, when you compare it to the students on the Holylands.

[theskull1]

From someone who was there.....
The gun was pointed over a high wall (wearing surgical gloves)and fired blind downward (not in the direction of "loyalist thugs") where the photographers were standing, so the boy who fired the shot knew what he was doing. The photographer was not injured by a stray bullet. This boy was not protecting his community (whatever that means).

Could I ask if funding for "community workers" is drying up after what could be considered a long period of relative calm? Just that they might have to find funding from somewhere to get the "community workers" to work together to get this sorted out. I'd like to know the answer to that one because I think when you strip away all the crud, we just might find that this whole incident was engineered just to keep thugs "in employment"

[thebigfella]

I would agree with EG, in that I hate seeing Nationalists and Republicans reacting to the attacks coming from the UVF. It is just what they want and the dissidents want. However, I can understand where they are coming from. From their PoV, the PSNI are seemingly doing nothing to help them. Like yourself EG, I have no idea about riot control, but when you compare this to the Holylands, there are going to be suspicions, rightly or wrongly.

In the perfect world, the PSNI would be in there over the last few nights; lifting the rioters there and then and lifting them during the day too. It's a big test for the PSNI now, they have to be seen to being proactive in the Short Strand or Nationalist/Republican confidence will disappear and play into the hands of the Real IRA.

Students are easy. They will fess up and pay the fines to keep their names from getting back home.
For the scum riotting it would be a badge of honour in their community to be lifted. Say nothing and you are out in 48.

FFS News reports are saying they were wearing surgical gloves. They are getting more forensically aware and are going to leave as little prosecutable evidence as possible "See me I wuz only walkin home when thon big bad fenian cop lifted me for nathin" CSI has a lot to answer for.

Not rightly or wrongly about the students. Rightly or wrongly about the PSNI's reaction to the Loyalists in the Short Strand, when you compare it to the students on the Holylands.

In fairness they could have went in a bit harder on the students in the holylands  I thought they were to lenient.

[LeoMc]

I would agree with EG, in that I hate seeing Nationalists and Republicans reacting to the attacks coming from the UVF. It is just what they want and the dissidents want. However, I can understand where they are coming from. From their PoV, the PSNI are seemingly doing nothing to help them. Like yourself EG, I have no idea about riot control, but when you compare this to the Holylands, there are going to be suspicions, rightly or wrongly.

In the perfect world, the PSNI would be in there over the last few nights; lifting the rioters there and then and lifting them during the day too. It's a big test for the PSNI now, they have to be seen to being proactive in the Short Strand or Nationalist/Republican confidence will disappear and play into the hands of the Real IRA.

Students are easy. They will fess up and pay the fines to keep their names from getting back home.
For the scum riotting it would be a badge of honour in their community to be lifted. Say nothing and you are out in 48.

FFS News reports are saying they were wearing surgical gloves. They are getting more forensically aware and are going to leave as little prosecutable evidence as possible "See me I wuz only walkin home when thon big bad fenian cop lifted me for nathin" CSI has a lot to answer for.

Not rightly or wrongly about the students. Rightly or wrongly about the PSNI's reaction to the Loyalists in the Short Strand, when you compare it to the students on the Holylands.

That is what I am taling about too. I am just saying it is easier for them to pick up a few students.
I am however prepared to give them the benefit and a bit of time to see how many they pick up and charge in the coming days.

[randomtask]

You see, that sort of thinking is actually part of the problem, for what you are saying is that relying on the PSNI isn't good enough, people have the right to take the law into their own hands

Well do you think it is honestly good enough that there were 700 rioters last night, but one women was arrested over the course of the night, will this inject the people of the short strand with confidence in the police force when they read that statistic?

Like most people on this Board (I guess), I have reservations about the PSNI reaction (or lack of). That said, I was not actually there, nor have I ever had to police a riot, so I will reserve judgement on their performance until we know more.

But whether one approves of the PSNI's policing or not, two wrongs do not make a right. And whatever else the answer, someone* taking a gun and letting loose in the middle of a riot is certainly not it - as I'm sure the unfortunate photographer would agree.

* - As the PSNI have averred, the gunman is most likely not just "someone". Ordinary people do not have guns in their homes, therefore the gunman was almost certainly either a gangster/drug dealer etc, or was a paramilitary. And regarding the latter, seeing as Alex Maskey & Co were on the scene, it seems very likely to me that the gunman won't have been a Provo who "forgot" to decommission his weapon back in the day. Therefore it's more likely to have been a Dissident paramilitary. In which case, would you really rather put your faith in some Gangster, or some Real IRA man, over the PSNI? Because if you do, then the best I can say for you is that you're an idiot.

I stated that i would not condemn any member of the short strand community that would use a gun to defend their community or property. I was not specifically talking about this particular incident directly, were someone took a look over a wall and it seems like shot with no aim. This is very reckless and someone innocent was injured. If you can put yourself in a member of the short strands community shoes, where they property is being badly damaged for no real reason and your children are traumatised, would you not think that you would need some form of protection in case of the worst was to happen. Did anyone see the news reports of a women talking about numerous masked men outside her house wrecking cars and smashing windows, i know if i was in that situation i would put serious though into arming myself especially when it seems the police aren't doing enough to stop this scum i.e no arrests of real note. Im sure most of these thugs wouldn't have to think twice about taking this further.

Tonight is a big test for the police, if the police do not take any real action by stopping these individuals for the third night in a row serious questions need to be asked. Such as why arrests and deterrents are not in place when they know the likelihood of trouble is very high and they know where this trouble is coming from.

[haranguerer]

From someone who was there.....
The gun was pointed over a high wall (wearing surgical gloves)and fired blind downward (not in the direction of "loyalist thugs") where the photographers were standing, so the boy who fired the shot knew what he was doing. The photographer was not injured by a stray bullet. This boy was not protecting his community (whatever that means).

So you're saying this lad deliberately targetted photographers. A crowd of loyalists attacking their community, and he decides to deliberately target and shoot at photographers. I dont care who was there  - theres no way thats true.

And the whole shite about surgical gloves is a white elephant too. How long are they going to last when you're chucking bricks? And what are they supposed to achieve? CSI has a lot to answer for aright, either those lads are even more stupid than I thought, or more likely imo, the media are full of shit about details like that and gullible people swallow it.

Whens the last time a riot scene was cordoned off while the police searched for forensic eveidnce??! Anyone charged over a riot is lifted or identified, at the scene. Surgical gloves arent much use to you then

[armagho9]

From someone who was there.....
The gun was pointed over a high wall (wearing surgical gloves)and fired blind downward (not in the direction of "loyalist thugs") where the photographers were standing, so the boy who fired the shot knew what he was doing. The photographer was not injured by a stray bullet. This boy was not protecting his community (whatever that means).

So you're saying this lad deliberately targetted photographers. A crowd of loyalists attacking their community, and he decides to deliberately target and shoot at photographers. I dont care who was there  - theres no way thats true.

And the whole shite about surgical gloves is a white elephant too. How long are they going to last when you're chucking bricks? And what are they supposed to achieve? CSI has a lot to answer for aright, either those lads are even more stupid than I thought, or more likely imo, the media are full of shit about details like that and gullible people swallow it.

Whens the last time a riot scene was cordoned off while the police searched for forensic eveidnce??! Anyone charged over a riot is lifted or identified, at the scene. Surgical gloves arent much use to you then

couldnt agree more.  I know if someone was attacking my house or area and i had a gun, i would aim for the photographer 

[Minder]

From someone who was there.....
The gun was pointed over a high wall (wearing surgical gloves)and fired blind downward (not in the direction of "loyalist thugs") where the photographers were standing, so the boy who fired the shot knew what he was doing. The photographer was not injured by a stray bullet. This boy was not protecting his community (whatever that means).

Could I ask if funding for "community workers" is drying up after what could be considered a long period of relative calm? Just that they might have to find funding from somewhere to get the "community workers" to work together to get this sorted out. I'd like to know the answer to that one because I think when you strip away all the crud, we just might find that this whole incident was engineered just to keep thugs "in employment"

I dont know if it was engineered to keep them in "employment" but you are probably not too far away about funding. I would bet that after these "negotiations" take place, and they conclude the various talking shops that Stormont will organise (to be seen to be doing something) public money will pour into the area to help 'regenerate" it and there will be any amount of self help groups, where some thug will be getting £35k per year to show a hood how to turn a computer on. The place, both communities, will be coming down with "directors" and "project coordinators".