IRA Blamed for Sectarian Slaughter at Kingsmill

[Oraisteach]

First, Myles, thanks for posting that article.  Powerful and poignant.

Second, EG, I know that you're not a proponent of the OO.  You have said so frequently.  As a result, I'm both surprised and disappointed that you don't call it out for what it is, a hate-filled corps whose ethos is built on anti-Catholicism.  Shoot, it's 2011 and they won't even darken the doorstep of a Catholic service, with few exceptions.  I really thought you'd present a hard critique but opted instead for presenting the softer side of sectarianism.  Bennydorano's examples are more representative, I feel.

Third, the force of the indo article notwithstanding, I still question the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" because the term itself does imply extent, by definition, and so can only really be applied to examples like the ones I gave.   The term implies a systematic and wholescale attempt to exterminate an entire ethnic group on the basis of that group's ethnicity.  Kingsmills, Darkley, Tullyvallen were repugnant and horrific, but were exceptions rather than the norm.  I was appalled when they happened and am appalled now, but ethnic cleansing is much more extensive in scope.

[Evil Genius]

Second, EG, I know that you're not a proponent of the OO.  You have said so frequently.  As a result, I'm both surprised and disappointed that you don't call it out for what it is, a hate-filled corps whose ethos is built on anti-Catholicism.  Shoot, it's 2011 and they won't even darken the doorstep of a Catholic service, with few exceptions.  I really thought you'd present a hard critique but opted instead for presenting the softer side of sectarianism.  Bennydorano's examples are more representative, I feel.

"Call it for what it is"?

One thing is abundantly clear and that is that I know a hell of a sight more about what the OO "is" than you do. For example, it is common (not "isolated") amongst the Orangemen that I know routinely to have attended the funerals of RC friends, colleagues and neighbours etc. Some of the more devout desist from actually going into the Church, since it conflicts with their deeply-held convictions, but they will wait outside, in hail, rain or sun, to express their sympathy and solidarity with the deceased and family.
Of course, you may think that this latter behaviour is somehow objectionable (I think it petty, myself), but the important fact is that they have show up, not what they do when they get there. Moreover, if you compare it with eg it RC doctrine on the (in)validity of other faiths, or the infamous "Ne Temere"  rule, I fail to see how it is any more unacceptable.
Of course as an Atheist, I find all such examples of religious Discrimination (true sense of the word) dispiriting; nonetheless I try to understand the principles behind them, and refuse to see only the failings of "Themmuns", whilst ignoring those by "Ussuns".

As for Bennydorano's examples of violence and triiumphalism etc, of course I deplore these, without reservation. However, I also know that what happens eg in Ardoyne, is entirely unrepresentative of the hundreds of parades and demonstrations etc which pass off entirely peaceably* every year, without comment or commotion. Which is not to say that the confrontational parades are thus somehow "cancelled out", but think of it this way.

Whenever there is a brawl at a GAA game, or a Referee gets chased from the field etc, and the newspapers and TV pick up on it, there is inevitably a rush by GAA fans to point out that there were another 50 games played the same day, which passed off entirely wouthout incident. And so long as they do not use the uneventful games to whitewash the rare controversial ones, that, imo, is a fair point.

But maybe you think that kind of perspective valid only when discussing something confined to your "own" side, but not when involving something from the "other" side?



* - Speaking of which, I invitred you to comment on Sligoman John Deignan's visit to The Twelfth in Brookeborough with his Riverbrooke Group, as an example of excellent community relations, but you still wilfully ignore it.

Third, the force of the indo article notwithstanding, I still question the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" because the term itself does imply extent, by definition, and so can only really be applied to examples like the ones I gave.   The term implies a systematic and wholescale attempt to exterminate an entire ethnic group on the basis of that group's ethnicity.  Kingsmills, Darkley, Tullyvallen were repugnant and horrific, but were exceptions rather than the norm.  I was appalled when they happened and am appalled now, but ethnic cleansing is much more extensive in scope.

I come from Fermanagh, where 87% of all killings in the Troubles were IRA/INLA murders. These were not in response to "anti-Catholic" pogroms, nor in defence of any community. Nor were they in any way confined to serving members of the Security Forces etc. Neither were they in response to Security Forces excesses, widespread street violence, or "Loyalist" paramilitary activity etc - there was virtually none of that in Fermanagh. And with a regular majority in elections etc, the old cry of "gerrymandering" did not come into play, either.

Rather, when faced with an isolated and vulnerable (minority) Protestant community, which often had little means of defending itself, never mind striking back in kind, the Provos systematically and consistently launched a concerted campaign against every aspect of that community, involving intimidation, extortion and murder. That is the reality of what those vermin were like, since I grew up witnessing it myself, on virtually a daily basis.

And no matter how Provo propagandists try to dress it up, the essence of this campaign was to nullify, by any and every means possible, anyone  who stood in the way of their attempt to impose a United [sic] Ireland. And on that score, the most difficult obstacle was not eg the Security Forces, the Law, or Westminster etc; rather it was the one million Protestants who were proving implacable in their determination to resist.

Of course, for Propaganda purposes if nothing else, the most prominent and important targets of this campaign were those most prominent in resisting it eg politicians, security forces, judiciary etc. But the evidence shows that when the Provos had eliminated all the "legitimate targets", or these proved too difficult to get, or posed too much of a risk to their own (Provo) skin, then they (Provos) were quite prepared to turn on the rest of the Protestant community.

And as far as I'm concerned, that attitude and mindset is identical to that of other fiends whose record is more commonly associated with "ethnic cleansing", such as eg the Serbs paramilitaries; the only difference being that Ratko Mladic was in a position to kill hundreds, or even thousands,  of innocents, whilst the Provos "only" massacred their opponents two, three, five or ten at a time. 

But if any of that is still alien to you, then perhaps this example of a "Fermanagh Gael" suffering at the hands of those savages might strike a chord:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n17/fintan-otoole/diary

[Oraisteach]

I'll say it again.  You'd make wonderful PRO for even the most loathsome outfit.  You manage to paint an endearing image of Orangemen huddled in the rain outside Catholic churches.  A veritable greeting card scenario.

You ask me why I didn't respond to your Deignan example.  First, I thought I had by implication, and second, you followed that invitation with the following endearing  inclusive vitriol:

(Of course, if you aren't actually interested in constructive debate, but just want to let off some steam, why don't you just retire to a darkened room with a dirty book and a box of Kleenex?  I'm guessing that, er, relief would, ahem, come more quickly for you than by typing out a reply...  ) 

So welcoming.  And I just love the comic book dialogue with its use of "er", so Beano and Dandy.


Anyway, I'm sure Mr. Deignan had a wonderful day on the periphery of orangeism in Fermanagh, as he would have at orange parades in Donegal too, for example. 

It reminds me a little of a July 4th gatheing I came across at a public park on the shores of Lake Erie about fifteen years ago..  It was all beer, brats and balloons, kids squealing with joy, everyone having a grand time.  The only obvious indication that it was some sort of white supremacist get-together were the two or three Confederate flags draped on tree limbs.  No white hoods or anything like that, but a racist gathering nonetheless.  So caution Mr. Deignan not to let outward appearances deceive.

Instead, invite him to a day out in Portadown, and begin the night before with a tour of the bonfires, and be sure to tell him to pick up a Fermanagh GAA jersey on his way through Enniskillen, encouraging him to wear it proudly, even in the aftermath of the London debacle, and then ask him how his orange experience was.

You may well know individual Orangemen better than I, but as an Armagh Catholic, I bet I had an altogether different experience of them growing up, one not quite so Pollyanna as yours.  For one so overtly anti-OO, you seem to have a charming affection for them.

So let's all sit tight and watch them in operation over the next month.  Perhaps Short Strand is the overture to the symphony proper.

[armagho9]

Nally Stand

Can you give a credible link to your 'only 20% of people murdered by the IRA were innocent stat" ?
How many people did they kill in total and how did you classify an innocent? 

Do people killed when they walked into a booby trap designed for the police count?

How many of the people murdered in  Enniskillen and Birmingham would count as innocent ?

The book lost lives gives a break down of the deaths caused by each group, and what religion, organisation (or innocent) those victims belonged to. 

Strange that the IRA killed so many catholic police officers and prison wardens for a sectarian organisation

As if that makes Provo slaughter of Protestants OK, then? 

The simple fact is, the Provos were quite prepared to murder anyone  who stood in the way of their imposing their will upon the people of Ireland. And, of course, the single most numerous and homogeneous group standing in their way was the one million Protestants of NI (although the Provos preferred to term us "Brits", as in "Brits Out!")

Of course for propaganda reasons, they struck first at those Protestants who were in the Security Forces, Prison Service or Judiciary etc, on the basis that they were attacking members of "the British War Machine". But as we saw time and again, they were quite prepared to strike at civilian workers and contractors etc, or even ordinary shopkeepers whose customers included police officers and the like, in their campaign of terror.

So by murdering people for being "Brits", they were also inextricably mudering people for being "Prods", as this extract from the Eames Bradley Report of 2008 makes clear:

"In all our consultations it is unclear if Republicans truly appreciate the depth of hurt that exists in the Unionist community.

Republicans claimed they were targeting State forces in the guise of RUC/UDR members. Unionist communities, particularly in rural border areas, saw such tactics as deliberately killing fathers and eldest, or only, sons to drive Protestants from their homes and land. We have heard many stories from these communities who describe their experiences in this way – as at best raw sectarianism and at worst ethnic cleansing.

They believe Republicans have not come to fully understand the hurt that still exists and they need to acknowledge and appreciate the damage they did to the prospect of reconciliation between our two communities.

Indeed if the aim of the Republican struggle was to unite Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter, the brutal logic of their violence undermined this aim. The reality of the depth of division that has been caused between neighbours – who now need to share the future, needs to be acknowledged. Regardless of the uniform, the cause, countrymen killed fellow countrymen. While we realize Republicans have embarked on a process to address some of these issues we believe more needs to be done – apologizing to non-combatants just isn't good enough."


And when it came down to it, they were also quite prepared to murder Protestants with no connection whatever with the security forces etc, solely in order to "Balkanise" NI, so that they might operate with impunity in newly Protestant-free areas, the effect of which was de facto to push the Border further North and East.

One example amongst many was that of Douglas Deering of Rosslea. The Deering family had lived entirely peaceably amongst their neighbours for years. In 1977, an IRA gunman (almost certainly the psychopathic sectarian mass killer Seamus McIllwaine) walked into his shop in broad daylight and shot him through the head. His "crime"? Since the Deerings were members of a small pacifist sect which did not permit its members to get involved in any activity which bore arms, or even in politics, it cannot have been anything to do with "supporting the War Machine" etc. Rather, it was simply because his was the last Protestant business in the village. There are numerous other examples throughout the years of the Troubles, but since such people do not have a Party Machine like SF behind them, their relatives' voice is invariably unheard.

Of course, there is a subtle twist to the inherent sectarianism of the Provos, as alluded to by 'Armagh09', above. That is, the Provos also butchered brave Catholics who attempted to serve the whole community in various ways (police, prison service, judiciary etc). This was essentially for two reasons. First, such victims naturally often lived in Catholic (or mixed) areas, so their movements were known, thereby making them easier to target. For example, I knew a long-serving Catholic RUC man, who was posted to the East of NI. When his aged mother died, he was unable to come back for her funeral, since the family home was in a remote border area, very predominantly Catholic, and he knew the Provos would be waiting to murder him - in the Church or Graveyard, if necessary. And even if they had swamped the service with soldiers, which nobody wanted, the increased risk of attack etc would have frightened many of the dead woman's family and neighbours from attending.

And, of course, the second reason for murdering Catholic "collaborators" [sic], was as a deliberate tactic to make the security forces exclusively Protestant, so that they could be demonised, portrayed as "sectarian" and entirely excluded from Catholic areas, and the IRA could then put themselves forwards as sole "protectors" of the community. (Anyone too young or distant to comprehend the extent of this should consider the Catholic village of Donagh, Co. Fermanagh, where the McDermott brothers were able to rape and abuse local children for years, even though it was widely known, since they knew locals were too terrified to tell the RUC, for fear of being labelled "informants" by the IRA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe3ORVK6i-8 )

All of which explains one interesting statistic which I came across recently, namely that on its first day of active service (01 April, 1970), the Ulster Defence Regiment numbered 946 Catholic recruits amongst its total strength of 2,440. Which, to save reaching for the calculator, equals 38.8% of the force:
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1970/mar/23/ulster-defence-regiment-applicants#S5CV0798P0-06665

Sadly, it was these Catholics who were first to be targeted for intimidation and murder - shades of Stephen Carroll, Peadar Heffron and Ronan Kerr? 

Your a sick and bitter person Evil Clown, and a prime example as to why the northern part of this country is in such a mess.  Still waiting on your apology by the way

[Evil Genius]

I'll say it again.  You'd make wonderful PRO for even the most loathsome outfit.  You manage to paint an endearing image of Orangemen huddled in the rain outside Catholic churches.  A veritable greeting card scenario.

You ask me why I didn't respond to your Deignan example.  First, I thought I had by implication, and second, you followed that invitation with the following endearing  inclusive vitriol:

(Of course, if you aren't actually interested in constructive debate, but just want to let off some steam, why don't you just retire to a darkened room with a dirty book and a box of Kleenex?  I'm guessing that, er, relief would, ahem, come more quickly for you than by typing out a reply...  ) 

So welcoming.  And I just love the comic book dialogue with its use of "er", so Beano and Dandy.


Anyway, I'm sure Mr. Deignan had a wonderful day on the periphery of orangeism in Fermanagh, as he would have at orange parades in Donegal too, for example. 

It reminds me a little of a July 4th gatheing I came across at a public park on the shores of Lake Erie about fifteen years ago..  It was all beer, brats and balloons, kids squealing with joy, everyone having a grand time.  The only obvious indication that it was some sort of white supremacist get-together were the two or three Confederate flags draped on tree limbs.  No white hoods or anything like that, but a racist gathering nonetheless.  So caution Mr. Deignan not to let outward appearances deceive.

Instead, invite him to a day out in Portadown, and begin the night before with a tour of the bonfires, and be sure to tell him to pick up a Fermanagh GAA jersey on his way through Enniskillen, encouraging him to wear it proudly, even in the aftermath of the London debacle, and then ask him how his orange experience was.

You may well know individual Orangemen better than I, but as an Armagh Catholic, I bet I had an altogether different experience of them growing up, one not quite so Pollyanna as yours.  For one so overtly anti-OO, you seem to have a charming affection for them.

So let's all sit tight and watch them in operation over the next month.  Perhaps Short Strand is the overture to the symphony proper.

It's really quite simple.

I freely accept that the OO has members, even whole Lodges, in parts of NI whose behaviour is an utter disgrace. And just as bad is the inability or unwillingness of the leadership to root these ones out. Consequently, I believe that the OO is a severely discredited organisation, which needs major reform if it is to take its place properly and acceptably in normal society.

But that is not what I have been arguing on this thread. Rather, you and others have consistently tarred with the same brush the entire membership for being exactly as I have described (above). And I know from long and personal experience that that simply is not so.

Yet when I give examples to prove that eg. the testimony of the Riverbrooke Group from Sligo, you first ignore it, then dodge it (by taking mock offence at my dig) and finally you sneer at the group's leader for allowing himself to be "deceived" - as though someone who spends his time trying to build bridges between divided communities must inevitably be too stupid or naive to understand what he is seeing.

Consequently, when some drunken Orangeman at an 11th night bonfire roars about "fenians all being the same etc", and then people on here argue that "all Orangemen are the same etc", the volume, tone and even consequences of the two might be different, but the same prejudiced mindset and refusal to listen to argument is at the bottom of both.

Indeed, to bring the discussion back on thread, it is that self-same mindset which was behind atrocities like Kingsmills (or Loughinisland, to take another topical example).

[Evil Genius]

Your a sick and bitter person Evil Clown

If you say so.

... and a prime example as to why the northern part of this country is in such a mess.  Still waiting on your apology by the way

Right.

Still waiting on your apology by the way

An apology for what, exactly? 

Your calling me a "p***k" in an earlier post, perhaps? 

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

EG you still trying to peddle the 1 million prods in the six counties fallacy!! 

[lynchbhoy]

 
lovable oo
eldest/son/fathers of loyalists/unionists killed to push them out of their homes and farms
pre-planned kingsmills killings
have to believe this report stating the IRA/preplanned etc etc etc
meanwhile on another thread- another equal report declares there was no collusion regarding loughlinisland when crown forces arms were used etc etc

its hans christian re-invent history time on here alright !!

fairytale lengthy posts from our dup/oo loving (refuses to call them for what they are and even does the opposite and deends them !!!) old pal but nothing of substence as per usual.
ya just couldnt make it up - though he does...

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Some of the reponses here are way over the top.

EG's argument about the OO is perfectly reasonable whether one agrees with it or not.  Also, he is very, very right to urge caution about labelling such a large grouping of people with one brush.  Similar sweeping generalisations from unionist politicians and spokespeople cost innocent GAA members their lives and all here should be aware of that.

Disagree by all means but bear in mind that a conflicting opinion is not necessarily a bigotted opinion.

/Jim.

[Evil Genius]

Meanwhile...

Kingsmills Massacre: Sectarian attack on memorial to IRA victims


IRA graffiti was scratched into the plaster of the new memorial to victims of the 1976 attack

A memorial to IRA murder victims has been vandalised in a sectarian attack in Bessbrook, County Armagh.

It commemorates the Kingsmills Massacre in which 10 Protestant workmen were shot dead as they travelled home from work together in 1976.

Sectarian graffiti has been scratched into the plaster of the memorial, which is undergoing construction work.

Danny Kennedy MLA, who has campaigned on behalf of the families, said he was "absolutely appalled by the attack".

The Ulster Unionist representative also claimed that there was an attempt to "intimidate" construction workers at the memorial site, prior to the graffiti which appeared on Friday.
(More at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20573217 )

[Agent Orange]

A memorial to IRA murder victims has been vandalised in a sectarian attack in Bessbrook, County Armagh.

It commemorates the Kingsmills Massacre in which 10 Protestant workmen were shot dead as they travelled home from work together in 1976.

The Kingsmill memorial in Bessbrook was not vandalised over the weekend, in fact it has never been vandalised to the best of my knowledge.

This new memorial, I believe is close to, or at the sight of the Kingsmill massacre and I believe is being built and funded by Willie Frazer/FAIR. The families of those murdered at Kingsmill did not want another memorial built, maybe you should ask your mate Willie why he has undertaken this project, has he received funding from the EU?

Regardless of the need for another monument, those responsible for the attack at the weekend are nothing more than mindless idiots.

[Denn Forever]

What needs to be clarified?

http://www.u.tv/News/Kingsmill-inquests-must-be-prioritised/8bf25737-9a7d-4fbf-8e4b-bbddfd4cb2c8

[glens abu]

A group calling themselves South Armagh Republican Action Force claimed this in retaliation for the murder of 6 Catholics the previous night,the HET say that the Provos were involved,there is talk the British Army may have been involved.The sooner there is a Truth commission that SF have been calling for to try and resolve all these issues the better.

[brokencrossbar1]

A group calling themselves South Armagh Republican Action Force claimed this in retaliation for the murder of 6 Catholics the previous night,the HET say that the Provos were involved,there is talk the British Army may have been involved.The sooner there is a Truth commission that SF have been calling for to try and resolve all these issues the better.

There won't be a Truth Commission, too many vested interests have too much to lose.

[Minder]

A group calling themselves South Armagh Republican Action Force claimed this in retaliation for the murder of 6 Catholics the previous night,the HET say that the Provos were involved,there is talk the British Army may have been involved.The sooner there is a Truth commission that SF have been calling for to try and resolve all these issues the better.

There won't be a Truth Commission, too many vested interests have too much to lose.

Yeah it's never gonna happen, and all the parties know that.