The Race for the ARAS.....

[Hardy]

Summary of the Gallaghers lies - taken from p.ie
http://www.politics.ie/forum/irish-presidential-election-2011/174295-gallagher-misses-radio-interview-now-has-no-mobile-phone-41.html

Updated list:
Can we now safely list these untruths and inaccuracies, and confirm sources:
1. Not deleting comments on facebook - East Coast radio interview/politics.ie threads listing comments which have been deleted
2. Only mentioned €5k dinner to a few friends, did not call anyone - Claimed in interview with Aine Lawlor, admitted on Six one yesterday
3. Did not solicit €5k donations - Aine Lawlor interview, admitted cold call to person he didn't know on Six One
4. Did not collect any €5k donations - Hugh Morgan statement and his own admission on Frontline debate
5. Re Directors Loan in contravention of Companies Acts - On the Last Word, he said the Beach House accounts "were never filed with the technical breach" and so no breach of company law occurred. - The Directors Loan was only picked up from filed accounts in the CRO. They were filed.
6. Re number 5 above, The loan is clearly a breach of Company Law. (today's Irish Times also)
7. On the Last Word on Today FM yesterday he said the cheque was lodged to the account of a company he had with a "very similar" name. The monies should have been lodged to Beach House Training and Consulting Ltd. His other companies at the time were Smartwatch Ltd, Smarthomes Ltd, Smarthomes Group Ltd - none of which names are similar to "Beach House" . - Irish Times today
8. Alleged that a businessman who had contributed 5k to FF had been investigated by CAB. Denied by businessman. Unsubstantiated allegation from SG
9. He said the Morgan event was his first fund raising event, check him out in 1992 with Albert Reynolds.
10. "I've never said one negative thing about any other candidate in this race" says Gallagher - D Cochrane post#324 on this thread. Yesterday he referred to Martin McGuinness "pulling the trigger" on him on Primetime debate, and also referred to debate ambush as "a military style timebomb" from SF

Ulick, with all due respect (and this time I'm trying to reason, not rant), I and others will take seriously your and others' interventions in this debate when you post even one line about Martin McGuiness's lies. Until then, your contributions can only be seen as partisan propaganda and not as serious commentary on the presidential campaign.

Feel free to ignore this, rant at it, ridicule it or whatever else, but I'd be really interested in your take on why you consider it reasonable analysis simply to post pro-Mcguinness and anti-everyone else.

I haven't bothered to go back and check and you'll no doubt correct me if I'm wrong, but digging out a word of praise somewhere for Michael Dee won't really change that perception.

[Edit: I forgot - you're actually voting for Dana.  ]

[Billys Boots]

The Irish media industry stand exposed as partisan, untruthful and incompetent.

True but nothing new. People need to understand the background of the current state of the Irish media. I think we in the north sometimes over-react to the media treatment of Sinn Fein and northerners in general on RTE/TV3 etc. This can result in sweeping statements about Irish people in general (the type Tubberman just got offended by), and can come across as offensive to ordinary irish citizens looking in. I think if we can all see the media in the correct context, understand that they are not without agenda, then we might all understand each other a bit better.

'Eoghan Harris was a secret member of the Workers Party (previously Official Sinn Fein, then Sinn Fein the Workers Party) from the early 1970's. For most of the period during which he was a secret member he threatened media organisations and journalists (including this journalist) with libel actions if they asserted what was in fact true – ie his membership of the party. In addition, he was instrumental in establishing a secret branch of the party within the Workers Union of Ireland (WUI) membership at RTE and this branch attempted and succeeded in slanting RTE current affairs programmers on radio and television through the judicious placement of its members and associates in key roles. In doing so they gravely damaged the credibility of RTE's current affairs output especially in relation to northern coverage, on which it sought to exclude any voice that it considered sympathetic to Provisional Sinn Fein (not just members of Sinn Fein).

The current President of Ireland, Mary McAleese, worked as a reporter on RTE television's flagship current affairs programme at the time, Today Tonight, and came into conflict with others on the programme who either were secret members of the Workers Party or associates of those. She was accused of being a Provo and ridiculed because of her northern nationalist background. She was personally witness to an extraordinary episode which illustrated the bias that had infected RTE current affairs at the time.'

http://politico.ie/politics/4442-eoghan-harris-and-the-workers-party.html

When you hear Charlie Bird or Marian Finucane witter on on some rant, remember Harris hired all them and schooled them in the same agenda as above. When you establish a culture in an organisation then it tends to get passed down to younger members of that organisation.

Now, 2 days ago bbc ni reported the re-opening of a case of the shooting of an RUC man in 1974 by the Official IRA at a time when Harris was developing his project as part of Official Sinn Fein. Compare and contrast the silence on this with similar cases in which the provisional movement were involved.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15423091

Thanks for that post Sheamy. Rather than the usual broad brush outrage backed up with nothing you at least have provided focus for the argument.

You forgot to attribute that piece (in italics) to Vincent Browne.  Interesting article.

[Evil Genius]

Ulick,

[Edit: I forgot - you're actually voting for Dana.  ]

Tbf, Ulick's vote may be going to Dana (he told us so, so it cannot be a lie), but perhaps Mrs. Ulick's vote may be going to another candidate?

Mind you, I have no idea where their 3rd vote will be going. I wonder would Donagh know?

Anyhow, I'll not miss them too  much, now they've emigrated from the UK to a foreign country...

[thebigfella]

Ulick,

[Edit: I forgot - you're actually voting for Dana.  ]

Tbf, Ulick's vote may be going to Dana (he told us so, so it cannot be a lie), but perhaps Mrs. Ulick's vote may be going to another candidate?

Mind you, I have no idea where their 3rd vote will be going. I wonder would Donagh know?

Anyhow, I'll not miss them too  much, now they've emigrated from the UK to a foreign country...

He doesn't have a vote, he's committing electoral fraud.

[Denn Forever]

w

[tbrick18]

You're right, there is not a united ireland....yet.....but Catholics/Nationalist/Republicans in the 6 counties now have parity with the Unionist/Loyalist/Protestant community and I for one think if it had not been for the conflict this would not have happened.

I agree, without "conflict" it would not have happened nearly so quickly. But imo that definition of "conflict" should have been confined to the Civil Rights campaign etc.

For if it had been, then I have little doubt that following the examples eg of Gandhi in India and Martin Luther King in the USA etc, by the early 1970's, the government in Westminster would have intervened to impose this on NI over the heads of Stormont.

However, the transformation of the "conflict" by people like McGuinness from (peaceful) Civil Rights to (paramilitary) "Brits Out" etc, served only to delay this process by 30-odd years, and at the cost of thousands of lives.

And even then the eventual GFA settlement was on the table in 1974 at Sunningdale, only the Shinners rejected it.

Is this the same Civil Rights campaign which was effectively ended by bloody sunday? When you try the Civil Rights approach and the soldiers of the state open fire on civilians do you just continue down the same road or do you decide that Civil Rights Movement isnt working? If the latter is the case where do you go from there? Is there any option other than the gun?

You say you have little doubt that Westminster would have intervened....well I think history shows this wasn't the case. They had ample time to intervene but didn't. The Catholic/Nationalist population of the 6 counties had no-one to represent them who was being listened to and had no-one to protect them, which leads to my comment about politics being permitted.

There is no way of knowing how many more innocent Catholics would have been murdered had it not been for the conflict, just as there is no way you can know that Westminster would eventually have intervened. There comes a point when a people cannot take the persecution any more and even recent history in other countries stands as evidence to this.

MMG was part of that....he used the gun when it was needed

"When it was needed". 
And who determined it was "needed"? What mandate did he have? 

... and used politics when it was permitted

"When it was permitted"?
And I suppose the likes of John hume were not "permitted" to engage in politics? Or gain the overwhelming majority of the Nationalist vote during the period when McGuinness felt compelled to use the gun?
I keep posting this clip from YouTube, but no-one else seems to think it remarkable that McGuinness should have been coming out with stuff like this in 1985 - a full 11 years after he "left" the IRA for a political career:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzvpMlHuIrs&feature=related

... and has progressed into a peacemaker first and foremost.

He "progressed into a peacemaker" [sic] only when it finally became clear that his vicious campaign of terrorism necessary war would never actually achieve the UI he craved (in fact by driving Unionists in the opposite direction, it was only proving ever more counter-productive).
Hence his decision to take the road of the "peacemaker". now don't get me wrong, I'd rather he did that than had carried on the "war", however belatedly.
But when I observe his demeanour and study his words since, I have ever less doubt that if he thought that Terrorism might yet achieve his aims, the callous b**tard would still be at it even now - 37 years after he "left the IRA"... 

I would argue that had it not been for the war (which you refer to as Terrorism) the mechanism would never have been put in place where there was at least a potential for a UI through political means. I would doubt the the IRA ever thought that they would achieve a UI through conflict....it was a means to bring Westminster to the table and to ensure equality for Catholics/Protestants/Natioanlist/Unionists.

Of course all deaths were a tragic loss.....no-one would debate that....but it was war. People die in war. Most of the time the innocents are the people who suffer most but why should that make the war waged by the IRA any less legitimate that say the uprising in Libya where a people felt persecuted by their government? Are the fighters for the Libyan NTC murderers or are they common people fighting for a common cause. It's not always clear.

Which is where we must differ.

For as far as I'm concerned, this was no "war", but a nasty, murderous and squalid attempt by various groups of armed thugs (Loyalist as well as Republican) to impose their will by gun and bomb upon anyone who disagreed with them, as often as not directly impacting on their "own" community, and with complete disregard for law, electoral support or morality.

In fact, the only thing which might persuade me that this was in fact some sort of "war" is the thought that that might lead to the leading players being indicted for War Crimes in The Hague.

But on the Shinner "cake and eat it" principle, I can't ever see McGuinness accepting that logical conclusion to his earlier prosecution of the "war"...

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but that is also the opinion of the Unionists who still have the "we run this country" attitude who you say you would hope become extinct.
From a nationalist point of view, it was a war against an oppressor.
I'd be all for the War Crimes tribunal you speak off, but only if the British State are also taken to task for what they were responsible for. I dont see that happening.

IMO, politically MMG has more experience than any of the other candidates. He has a world wide profile and I think could do a lot of good for the economy in the 26. No doubt, it would also further the cause of the SF party should he be elected, but even if he's  not this campaign has already been a success for SF and it opens the door to the possibility that a SF candidate could at some point become President. From what I can see of this, SF are still working towards a united ireland and they are using politics to do so.

So the "Independent"  Mr. McGuinness is "using politics" to achieve a UI, is he?

You see, I thought this was a Presidential  election i.e. to a position which is meant to be above party politics?

Anyhow, I hope that if he shouldn't win, it will be because at least some of the voters in the Republic now see him better for what he really is, and so disdain to elect a cynical and unrepentent former Terrorist to represent them on the world stage.

And conversely, if he should somehow win, I will be happy that he will be constitutionally confined into an entirely ceremonial role, with little or no opportunity to further effectively his narrow, partisan Shinner agenda.

Indeed if nothing else, a victory for "The Bogside Butcher" would mean that the people of NI would see a whole lot less of his attempts to control their day-to-day lives - just like the late and unlamented Gerry Adams! 

In your opinion MMG is an "unrepentent former Terrorist". In the opinon of others he stepped up to the mark and did what had to be done to protect his own community.
I think MMG does a good enough job of representing the people of the 6 counties on a world stage...don't you?
Yes if MMG was to win the election as an independant he won't have any real power, apart from being commander of the Irish armed forces which I find amusing. But, the fact would remain that he would be a member of SF AND he would be President, so by association he would be a SF president. Much in the same way as a FF party member would be regarded as a FF President. That sends out a very strong message to the world and to all the people of ireland.

[Declan]

New Jockey Club guidelines for aspiring 'Independent' candidates for the Presidency: no more than seven strokes allowed...

[sheamy]

You forgot to attribute that piece (in italics) to Vincent Browne.  Interesting article.

It's on the link below the italics. Deliberately left it out to see if someone would first label it shinner 'usual suspects' material :-)

At the same time that the officials ran their openly criminal activities dropping all pretence around anything republican or nationalist, their partners in official sinn fein and the workers party (which the current Tánaiste became a member of) were busy with media and union infiltration.

I just wanted to highlight that there are some very dark forces at work in all of this and it's something seldom talked about for obvious reasons. When we listen to these commentators we should remember what 'school' they have come from. It has very successfully shaped the opinions of a younger generation in their attitudes toward people from the north of the country. The organisation did much the same in the north with the likes of Henry McDonald to the fore, although less successfully influencing the opinions of younger people who now vote for Sinn Fein in their tens of thousands.

In the 70's they did a back flip their comrades in the soviet bloc would have been proud of. For that they were given powerful media positions in Dublin and London and by consequence Belfast. We should always place their comments in this context, and particularly for northerners, don't be so reactionary to them.

[Ulick]

Ulick, with all due respect (and this time I'm trying to reason, not rant), I and others will take seriously your and others' interventions in this debate when you post even one line about Martin McGuiness's lies. Until then, your contributions can only be seen as partisan propaganda and not as serious commentary on the presidential campaign.

Feel free to ignore this, rant at it, ridicule it or whatever else, but I'd be really interested in your take on why you consider it reasonable analysis simply to post pro-Mcguinness and anti-everyone else.

I haven't bothered to go back and check and you'll no doubt correct me if I'm wrong, but digging out a word of praise somewhere for Michael Dee won't really change that perception.

[Edit: I forgot - you're actually voting for Dana.  ]

Hardy, with respect I am not responsible for Martin McGuinness, what he does or what he says. My contribution to this thread boils down to a nerdy preoccupation with a pretty meaningless election campaign. You can interpret my posts whatever way you like, but for me it's just a little bit of fun, copying and pasting from here and there, adding links that I find interesting and throwing in the odd comment myself. If that's propaganda well, who exactly are you to be drawing the line around what propaganda is or is not?

I'm not aware of any particular "analysis" I have put forward anywhere on this thread, because to be honest I don't take the whole thing that serious. Actually if you go through my posts on the thread you'll see that I've made very little in the way of "pro-Mcguinness" posts and my commentary has mainly been on the media coverage of the election, the negative campaigning of Mitchell and latterly Gallagher's lies. Now if you want to take a few random posts about Mitchell and Gallagher as "pro-Mcguinness" well I don't see the logic – they could just as well be described as "pro-Dana", "pro-Higgins" etc etc. If you want to take my commentary on the media coverage of the election campaign as "pro-Mcguinness", well then what exactly are you permitting us to comment on today – should I go off and write a 500 word exposition on Mary Davis's suits or Dana's voice just so you don't have to see what you think is another "pro-Mcguinness" post?

Like everyone else I come on here for a bit of craic and comment on things that interest me. I'm sorry if that doesn't interest you, but I'm not going to apologise for what I post as you have the option of looking elsewhere if you like – as does everyone else. If you want I could stick a little fluttering flag on my avatar to warn you that it's one of mine – it works wonders for me avoiding yer man Evil Genius posts and I can actually read the Board now without feeling the need to interject on whatever dung spills out of his keyboard.

A final point, I have noticed that this is the second reply you have made today where you have dragged in some an imagined "pro-Sinn Féin" bias in the OP which didn't actually exist. That would indicate that you are letting your own bias or prejudices cloud what is in front of your eyes, and we're denied the usual sharp, insightful Hardy analysis in favour of a prejudiced, scatter-gun rant.

[Hardy]

Sure we all have our biases. In my case, my prejudiced rants are prejudiced against all the parties and so they truly are scattergun. I have to say I‘ve yet to see a shinner even get a flesh wound from one of your volleys.

As regards your question as to who I am to be drawing a line around what’s propaganda, I’m just another poster and any lines I draw are only in my mind. So feel free to post what you like and I'll feel free to form my own opinion on whether it's propaganda, commentary on the media or harmless fun.

Maybe you’ll suddenly surprise us all with a ten-point list of Martin McGuinness’s lies. Or (as Frank Cluskey once asked in the Dáil about what sort of secrets the Secret Service was in charge of) is it one big lie or a whole lot of small lies?

[Ulick]

Maybe you'll suddenly surprise us all with a ten-point list of Martin McGuinness's lies. Or (as Frank Cluskey once asked in the Dáil about what sort of secrets the Secret Service was in charge of) is it one big lie or a whole lot of small lies?

Why would you be surprised? - sure in response to one of your posts, I wrote something a few weeks back fully acknowledging the McGuinness (& Adams) lies.

[Billys Boots]

On a lighter note; Norris speaks to the proles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZOUcCKcKjE&feature=related

[Croí na hÉireann]

Whoever should win this election, should consider what has been lost in the process. The Irish media industry stand exposed as partisan, untruthful and incompetent. Irish society has been exposed as devoid of vision, and an inability to learn from past mistakes. Northern Nationalists have seen their aspirations trampled upon and are now totally abandoned. When your colonial masters treat you with more respect than your fellow countryman, the time has come to consider your position. Michael D has behaved with presidential decorum and dignity and will probably succeed to the presidency. Sadly he will preside over a bankrupt,fractured state, that has turned its back on its history and culture, and has no future other than a pleasant playground for rich european elites

Yes! Yaaaarrrrr!!! Right on matey! This has got my blood going now. I feel like going out and throwing rocks at policemen or banging the ground with binlids. I agree with everything here and will go even further. Should we start another armed campaign and go down the Basque route and look for an independent part of the country. We can call it something new like FATDAD with the initial of every county in it. We are the good people and the south are like Limbo or purgatory. Leave them to their money-making corrupt European mindset whilst we will continue to promote the language, music, culture, family breeding and land feudal systems.

I've never felt so exhilarated or liberated. This is a new start. Come back up Martin and lead us into paradise. 2016 will see a new and better island. It's a bit like drinking fresh banana juice. The bad bits are at the bottom.

FATDAD 

Good thread once you can filter out all the border tennis. Says a lot about this country that people were more than ready to vote a FFer in as president 7 months after kicking them out of power. And I used to think Americans were mentally challenged. Anyways the candidates who have ruled themselves out for me:

The FFer: Was never going to get a vote, stank to the high heavens before all his creative accountancy came out. Automatically tune out when politicans use the latest buzz words that are shown up in the latest market research, in FFers case; entrepreneur, investment, jobs, employment, community worker

Gaybo: Unlikable, stone faced, he used the nomination from the biggest party in the state to shoot down exIRAman instead of actually focusing on the office. I could maybe have understood if he tried to bury the ones with strong FF links.

The Eurosinger: Too softly spoken, religious nutjob.

The State Boards Woman: As the title suggests. Can't fathom how the electorate saw through her and not the other fella.

exIRAman: Blatant lies about leaving the IRA but the clincher is the fact that I don't believe he wants to get elected, it's all about getting people to break their SF duck. For that reason he's not for me.


That leaves two, the midget and the lady. The lady's letters wouldn't overly bother me and I'm glad he got back in to the race. However I'll revert back to what I said way back when, the midget called Michael Graham a w**ker so he gets my vote. Hope he pulls through as he's the least worst of all of them.

[Olly]

Interesting take on it all there Olly and I think you hit the nail on the head with it all apart from naling your colours to any particular mast... so which one would make the next best President of Ireland in your opinion?

I would go for Mary Davis. To go from Mary Robinson to Mary McAleese to Mary Davis would be the best economically for the country. I'm sure the two previous Marys had their names inscribed on manys a thing like the toilets, their cutlery and the changing rooms for the swimming pools in the palace etc. For the 21st year now in a row you will only have to replace the surname and the A and the S is already there on McAleese's name so the engraver only needs to chisel in D, V and I. In recent years these specialist jobs are charging through the ceiling. Last year I got an Angola soccer jersey and wanted Olly on the back of it. The man was charging £4 a letter and I could only afford Oll. Add to that the ink saved on official documentation. Only the 'McAleese' needs tippexed out on letters and warnings etc.

Mary Davis's success would also be a nod to Ireland's greatest TV man Derek Davis. It also maybe acknowledges the great careers of Steve and Joe Davis in the snooker and that's an olive branch to the English. I also think that if she met Mandela or Obama they'd both be able to handle her name.

[brokencrossbar1]

That leaves two, the midget and the lady. The lady's letters wouldn't overly bother me and I'm glad he got back in to the race. However I'll revert back to what I said way back when, the midget called Michael Graham a w**ker so he gets my vote. Hope he pulls through as he's the least worst of all of them.

I think this is the tagline for this election and ultimately will see the little man get in.