Six counties to lose 2 more players to the proper Ireland team

[Applesisapples]

These pieces arent ten years old, and they're only 2 of many

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/13384280.stm
'A leaked email from a Police Service of Northern Ireland officer also spoke of the "unfortunate anti-social/sectarian behaviour of a number of our fans at the Scotland game".'

UTV News - Anger at sectarian songs after NI game
15 Feb 2011 ... The Irish Football Association has condemned the actions of a group of Northern Ireland fans who were captured on film singing sectarian

I was referring to the booing of Catholic players which I specifically took you up on in repsonse to the matters raised in your initial post.

Ffs sake, I made it clear I thought that it was part of an ongoing situation (it was the continuous present tense) which  would discourage nationalists from playing for NI, I said that given the scale of the booing there were bound to be still many fans attending who had been involved, and went on to say I doubt they had changed that much.

You asked what would lead me to believe that, I presented the above pieces. You read the posts and wrote responses so you clearly know how this has all followed through.

I'll quote you in future so you will have less opportunity to be selective in what you refer to, I had hoped I wouldnt have to.

Of course the ongoing situation does not involve the booing of Catholic players. It always  seems to be added to the list dominated by flags and emblems.

That's one less thing to be discouraged by.

I find it difficult to comprehend that the songs sung inside the ground could be offensive to Nationalists. The IFA have no control over those sung outside the ground.

On balance I would be up for a more regionally distinctive anthem.

Well there in lies the problem.

[Applesisapples]

b]I didnt say it was currently happening[/b] - but it has happened, (and the reaction was pretty sickening too - Jackie 'I think there were less boos that time' Fullerton) and I dont think anyone would be particularly surprised if it happened again.

1.Your post was written in the present tense.

2. I would be surprised as would anyone who attends the games.

However, I think there certainly remains many of those fans who partook in above behaviour, and I doubt they have changed that much.

How do you come to that conclusion?

They have been given many many opportunities over the last 10 years.

Why did Scotland fans ask if NI fans were England in disguise?

Don't know. That's a question to be answered by Scotland fans. Good disguise mind - all those green shirts.

Not sure what relevance this has to the alleged  booing of Catholic players though?

It was because of the songs they were singing the Union Flags etc... I found it amusing though to see fans bedecked in Red White and Blue cheering a team in green playing against a team in Blue White and Red..confused me as well.

I still fail to see the relevance. Are you saying that a NI fan who  waves a Union flag  at a NI  game will boo a Catholic player?   I have not heard one Catholic player booed at a game in the last 10 years.

I think that you will find that the vast majority of  fans are/were "bedecked" in green .

Italy v Holland must really confuse you too.

Compare the NI fans/Association to Ulster Rugby who have worked hard to promote the flying of flags that show support only for the team and not political identity.

Have you been to Ravenhill? There are all manner of flags there ranging from NI flag, Ulster flag right through to Saffa flags and even a rising sun? You can fill your boots and  bring whatever you want. They don't stop you.

Ulster rugby is a club (like Northampton, Harlequins etc) and they therefore hand out the small  Ulster Rugby flags now and again like any other club team.

With respect you are comparing apples with oranges (forgive the pun) in any event. Ulster rugby is a  club representing no political jurisdiction whilst the  NI football team does.
[/quote]
Yeah I have been to Ravenhill and whilst you see the odd Ulster (sic)Flag on Balance it as a provincial representative side is encouraging inclusion.

[fitzroyalty]

I have no real gripe with the NI football team, I like to see them win/be successful etc and would never support another team ahead of them, other than the ROI team.

That said, the two associations should merge back into one (probably under the banner of the IFA).

There are accusations of sectarianism by the FAI, however what annoys me is that the IFA in its current state continues to blissfully ignore the division that it's 'national' team creates. How on earth is anyone from a Nationalist background meant to feel any sense of belonging when the stadium is bedecked in Ulster banners and the Union Flag, with GSTQ as the anthem? Not to mention the potential for a few UVF songs?

The attiude seems to be, sure we've two lads who are subs at Celtic, and a handful more who are Catholic, none of whom get booed, we can't do anything more to attract Nationalists. 

[Olaf]

I have no real gripe with the NI football team, I like to see them win/be successful etc and would never support another team ahead of them, other than the ROI team.

That said, the two associations should merge back into one (probably under the banner of the IFA).

There are accusations of sectarianism by the FAI, however what annoys me is that the IFA in its current state continues to blissfully ignore the division that it's 'national' team creates. How on earth is anyone from a Nationalist background meant to feel any sense of belonging when the stadium is bedecked in Ulster banners and the Union Flag, with GSTQ as the anthem? Not to mention the potential for a few UVF songs?

The attiude seems to be, sure we've two lads who are subs at Celtic, and a handful more who are Catholic, none of whom get booed, we can't do anything more to attract Nationalists.

As Deiseach alluded to earlier and especially  now that the element of choice has been strenghtened/copper fastened  by the CAS ruling do you think that there really is any point in the IFA pushing the boat out any further ? Will they be spitting in the wind as any Natiionalist will always opt for the Republic? Indeed FIFA recognise NI as one of the 4 British Associations .As I see it the division (in football terms) has widened and hardened unfortunately.

Whilst not a precise comparator the Unionist rugby players have respectfully stood for anthems and before flags that they have had no affinity with  in Dublin for 60 years  or so simply to play the game at the highest level. They have had no choice and presumably they have done so because they want to play the game they love at the highest possible level. If I had been in any way  good enough I would have done likewise. I say that this is not precisely comparable as the Irish rugby team represents 2 political jurisdictions and the NI football team just 1.

[Olaf]

These pieces arent ten years old, and they're only 2 of many

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/13384280.stm
'A leaked email from a Police Service of Northern Ireland officer also spoke of the "unfortunate anti-social/sectarian behaviour of a number of our fans at the Scotland game".'

UTV News - Anger at sectarian songs after NI game
15 Feb 2011 ... The Irish Football Association has condemned the actions of a group of Northern Ireland fans who were captured on film singing sectarian

I was referring to the booing of Catholic players which I specifically took you up on in repsonse to the matters raised in your initial post.

Ffs sake, I made it clear I thought that it was part of an ongoing situation (it was the continuous present tense) which  would discourage nationalists from playing for NI, I said that given the scale of the booing there were bound to be still many fans attending who had been involved, and went on to say I doubt they had changed that much.

You asked what would lead me to believe that, I presented the above pieces. You read the posts and wrote responses so you clearly know how this has all followed through.

I'll quote you in future so you will have less opportunity to be selective in what you refer to, I had hoped I wouldnt have to.

Of course the ongoing situation does not involve the booing of Catholic players. It always  seems to be added to the list dominated by flags and emblems.

That's one less thing to be discouraged by.

I find it difficult to comprehend that the songs sung inside the ground could be offensive to Nationalists. The IFA have no control over those sung outside the ground.

On balance I would be up for a more regionally distinctive anthem.

Well there in lies the problem.

Where precisely?

[Applesisapples]

I have no real gripe with the NI football team, I like to see them win/be successful etc and would never support another team ahead of them, other than the ROI team.

That said, the two associations should merge back into one (probably under the banner of the IFA).

There are accusations of sectarianism by the FAI, however what annoys me is that the IFA in its current state continues to blissfully ignore the division that it's 'national' team creates. How on earth is anyone from a Nationalist background meant to feel any sense of belonging when the stadium is bedecked in Ulster banners and the Union Flag, with GSTQ as the anthem? Not to mention the potential for a few UVF songs?

The attiude seems to be, sure we've two lads who are subs at Celtic, and a handful more who are Catholic, none of whom get booed, we can't do anything more to attract Nationalists.

As Deiseach alluded to earlier and especially  now that the element of choice has been strenghtened/copper fastened  by the CAS ruling do you think that there really is any point in the IFA pushing the boat out any further ? Will they be spitting in the wind as any Natiionalist will always opt for the Republic? Indeed FIFA recognise NI as one of the 4 British Associations .As I see it the division (in football terms) has widened and hardened unfortunately.

Whilst not a precise comparator the Unionist rugby players have respectfully stood for anthems and before flags that they have had no affinity with  in Dublin for 60 years  or so simply to play the game at the highest level. They have had no choice and presumably they have done so because they want to play the game they love at the highest possible level. If I had been in any way  good enough I would have done likewise. I say that this is not precisely comparable as the Irish rugby team represents 2 political jurisdictions and the NI football team just 1.

Only in Dublin is the Irish Antem played and the flag as with the Provincial teams is the IRFU's own flag. At all matches Irelands Call is played as a United Anthem. The Hockey and Cricket Teams have a flag with the four provincial standards on it, although I'm not sure of the anthem. But they are inclusive.

[Applesisapples]

These pieces arent ten years old, and they're only 2 of many

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/13384280.stm
'A leaked email from a Police Service of Northern Ireland officer also spoke of the "unfortunate anti-social/sectarian behaviour of a number of our fans at the Scotland game".'

UTV News - Anger at sectarian songs after NI game
15 Feb 2011 ... The Irish Football Association has condemned the actions of a group of Northern Ireland fans who were captured on film singing sectarian

I was referring to the booing of Catholic players which I specifically took you up on in repsonse to the matters raised in your initial post.

Ffs sake, I made it clear I thought that it was part of an ongoing situation (it was the continuous present tense) which  would discourage nationalists from playing for NI, I said that given the scale of the booing there were bound to be still many fans attending who had been involved, and went on to say I doubt they had changed that much.

You asked what would lead me to believe that, I presented the above pieces. You read the posts and wrote responses so you clearly know how this has all followed through.

I'll quote you in future so you will have less opportunity to be selective in what you refer to, I had hoped I wouldnt have to.

Of course the ongoing situation does not involve the booing of Catholic players. It always  seems to be added to the list dominated by flags and emblems.

That's one less thing to be discouraged by.

I find it difficult to comprehend that the songs sung inside the ground could be offensive to Nationalists. The IFA have no control over those sung outside the ground.

On balance I would be up for a more regionally distinctive anthem.

Well there in lies the problem.

Where precisely?

Your lack of understanding of the Nationalist psyche and what offends.

[Olaf]

I have no real gripe with the NI football team, I like to see them win/be successful etc and would never support another team ahead of them, other than the ROI team.

That said, the two associations should merge back into one (probably under the banner of the IFA).

There are accusations of sectarianism by the FAI, however what annoys me is that the IFA in its current state continues to blissfully ignore the division that it's 'national' team creates. How on earth is anyone from a Nationalist background meant to feel any sense of belonging when the stadium is bedecked in Ulster banners and the Union Flag, with GSTQ as the anthem? Not to mention the potential for a few UVF songs?

The attiude seems to be, sure we've two lads who are subs at Celtic, and a handful more who are Catholic, none of whom get booed, we can't do anything more to attract Nationalists.

As Deiseach alluded to earlier and especially  now that the element of choice has been strenghtened/copper fastened  by the CAS ruling do you think that there really is any point in the IFA pushing the boat out any further ? Will they be spitting in the wind as any Natiionalist will always opt for the Republic? Indeed FIFA recognise NI as one of the 4 British Associations .As I see it the division (in football terms) has widened and hardened unfortunately.

Whilst not a precise comparator the Unionist rugby players have respectfully stood for anthems and before flags that they have had no affinity with  in Dublin for 60 years  or so simply to play the game at the highest level. They have had no choice and presumably they have done so because they want to play the game they love at the highest possible level. If I had been in any way  good enough I would have done likewise. I say that this is not precisely comparable as the Irish rugby team represents 2 political jurisdictions and the NI football team just 1.

Only in Dublin is the Irish Antem played and the flag as with the Provincial teams is the IRFU's own flag. At all matches Irelands Call is played as a United Anthem. The Hockey and Cricket Teams have a flag with the four provincial standards on it, although I'm not sure of the anthem. But they are inclusive.

The flags flown in Dublin on match day  are the Irish Tri-Colour and the Ulster flag. There is representation of one political jurisdiction but not the other.That is a  difficulty.  Absurdly Donegal , Monaghan and Cavan get two bites!

I am aware of the IRFU flag which should be the only one flown but as I have  said these are matters which have not been any major  issue to any Unionist players/supporters of the Irish rugby team over the years simply because they refuse to let it interfere with a game they love to watch/play.

[Olaf]

These pieces arent ten years old, and they're only 2 of many

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/13384280.stm
'A leaked email from a Police Service of Northern Ireland officer also spoke of the "unfortunate anti-social/sectarian behaviour of a number of our fans at the Scotland game".'

UTV News - Anger at sectarian songs after NI game
15 Feb 2011 ... The Irish Football Association has condemned the actions of a group of Northern Ireland fans who were captured on film singing sectarian

I was referring to the booing of Catholic players which I specifically took you up on in repsonse to the matters raised in your initial post.

Ffs sake, I made it clear I thought that it was part of an ongoing situation (it was the continuous present tense) which  would discourage nationalists from playing for NI, I said that given the scale of the booing there were bound to be still many fans attending who had been involved, and went on to say I doubt they had changed that much.

You asked what would lead me to believe that, I presented the above pieces. You read the posts and wrote responses so you clearly know how this has all followed through.

I'll quote you in future so you will have less opportunity to be selective in what you refer to, I had hoped I wouldnt have to.

Of course the ongoing situation does not involve the booing of Catholic players. It always  seems to be added to the list dominated by flags and emblems.

That's one less thing to be discouraged by.

I find it difficult to comprehend that the songs sung inside the ground could be offensive to Nationalists. The IFA have no control over those sung outside the ground.

On balance I would be up for a more regionally distinctive anthem.

Well there in lies the problem.

Where precisely?

Your lack of understanding of the Nationalist psyche and what offends.

Maybe?

Indeed I have said that I find it difficult to comprehend how the songs sung inside the Stadium could offend.I am aware of what is sung,   and  I genuinely hold that view.

Can you enlighten me?

[deiseach]

The flags flown in Dublin on match day  are the Irish Tri-Colour and the Ulster flag. There is representation of one political jurisdiction but not the other.That is a  difficulty.  Absurdly Donegal , Monaghan and Cavan get two bites!

I am aware of the IRFU flag which should be the only one flown but as I have  said these are matters which have not been any major  issue to any Unionist players/supporters of the Irish rugby team over the years simply because they refuse to let it interfere with a game they love to watch/play.

I can understand someone being put off by the attitudes of the GAA and the IRFU to flags. I can also understand someone deciding not to allow the attitudes of the GAA and the IRFU to flags to put them off following the sport. I can't, however, understand someone being put off by the attitude of the GAA to flags while deciding not to allow the attitude of the IRFU to flags to put them off following the sport. God forbid that people are happy to ignore one while not ignoring the other because of - gasp! - prejudice

[Applesisapples]

I have no real gripe with the NI football team, I like to see them win/be successful etc and would never support another team ahead of them, other than the ROI team.

That said, the two associations should merge back into one (probably under the banner of the IFA).

There are accusations of sectarianism by the FAI, however what annoys me is that the IFA in its current state continues to blissfully ignore the division that it's 'national' team creates. How on earth is anyone from a Nationalist background meant to feel any sense of belonging when the stadium is bedecked in Ulster banners and the Union Flag, with GSTQ as the anthem? Not to mention the potential for a few UVF songs?

The attiude seems to be, sure we've two lads who are subs at Celtic, and a handful more who are Catholic, none of whom get booed, we can't do anything more to attract Nationalists.

As Deiseach alluded to earlier and especially  now that the element of choice has been strenghtened/copper fastened  by the CAS ruling do you think that there really is any point in the IFA pushing the boat out any further ? Will they be spitting in the wind as any Natiionalist will always opt for the Republic? Indeed FIFA recognise NI as one of the 4 British Associations .As I see it the division (in football terms) has widened and hardened unfortunately.

Whilst not a precise comparator the Unionist rugby players have respectfully stood for anthems and before flags that they have had no affinity with  in Dublin for 60 years  or so simply to play the game at the highest level. They have had no choice and presumably they have done so because they want to play the game they love at the highest possible level. If I had been in any way  good enough I would have done likewise. I say that this is not precisely comparable as the Irish rugby team represents 2 political jurisdictions and the NI football team just 1.

Only in Dublin is the Irish Antem played and the flag as with the Provincial teams is the IRFU's own flag. At all matches Irelands Call is played as a United Anthem. The Hockey and Cricket Teams have a flag with the four provincial standards on it, although I'm not sure of the anthem. But they are inclusive.

The flags flown in Dublin on match day  are the Irish Tri-Colour and the Ulster flag. There is representation of one political jurisdiction but not the other.That is a  difficulty.  Absurdly Donegal , Monaghan and Cavan get two bites!

I am aware of the IRFU flag which should be the only one flown but as I have  said these are matters which have not been any major  issue to any Unionist players/supporters of the Irish rugby team over the years simply because they refuse to let it interfere with a game they love to watch/play.

You forget that the six counties do not have a flag. I presume the Ulster Branch which encompasses Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan are represented byn the Ulster Provincial Flag.

[Applesisapples]

These pieces arent ten years old, and they're only 2 of many

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/13384280.stm
'A leaked email from a Police Service of Northern Ireland officer also spoke of the "unfortunate anti-social/sectarian behaviour of a number of our fans at the Scotland game".'

UTV News - Anger at sectarian songs after NI game
15 Feb 2011 ... The Irish Football Association has condemned the actions of a group of Northern Ireland fans who were captured on film singing sectarian

I was referring to the booing of Catholic players which I specifically took you up on in repsonse to the matters raised in your initial post.

Ffs sake, I made it clear I thought that it was part of an ongoing situation (it was the continuous present tense) which  would discourage nationalists from playing for NI, I said that given the scale of the booing there were bound to be still many fans attending who had been involved, and went on to say I doubt they had changed that much.

You asked what would lead me to believe that, I presented the above pieces. You read the posts and wrote responses so you clearly know how this has all followed through.

I'll quote you in future so you will have less opportunity to be selective in what you refer to, I had hoped I wouldnt have to.

Of course the ongoing situation does not involve the booing of Catholic players. It always  seems to be added to the list dominated by flags and emblems.

That's one less thing to be discouraged by.

I find it difficult to comprehend that the songs sung inside the ground could be offensive to Nationalists. The IFA have no control over those sung outside the ground.

On balance I would be up for a more regionally distinctive anthem.

Well there in lies the problem.

Where precisely?

Your lack of understanding of the Nationalist psyche and what offends.

Maybe?

Indeed I have said that I find it difficult to comprehend how the songs sung inside the Stadium could offend.I am aware of what is sung,   and  I genuinely hold that view.

Can you enlighten me?

Rule britania, the queen with the added references to loyalist paramilitaries, need I go on.

[Olaf]

The flags flown in Dublin on match day  are the Irish Tri-Colour and the Ulster flag. There is representation of one political jurisdiction but not the other.That is a  difficulty.  Absurdly Donegal , Monaghan and Cavan get two bites!

I am aware of the IRFU flag which should be the only one flown but as I have  said these are matters which have not been any major  issue to any Unionist players/supporters of the Irish rugby team over the years simply because they refuse to let it interfere with a game they love to watch/play.

I can understand someone being put off by the attitudes of the GAA and the IRFU to flags. I can also understand someone deciding not to allow the attitudes of the GAA and the IRFU to flags to put them off following the sport. I can't, however, understand someone being put off by the attitude of the GAA to flags while deciding not to allow the attitude of the IRFU to flags to put them off following the sport. God forbid that people are happy to ignore one while not ignoring the other because of - gasp! - prejudice

As I see it the average aforementioned Unionist  rugby supporter visiting Dublin on match day has  given respect (yes respect) to the national  anthem of the host city (Dublin) , notwithstanding the fact that  they have no allegiance to the anthem.The thinking being -  the match is being played in the capital city of the  Republic so it is reasonable for them to play their anthem and fly their flag. This was shown up  in the game v Italy in Belfast. However  the IRFU were clumsy and insulting  in dealing with the issue .

However clumsy they have been  the IRFU would however not play the Republic's national anthem or insist on the flying of a Tri-Colour when playing a game in Belfast or anywhere in Northern Ireland.

[Olaf]

These pieces arent ten years old, and they're only 2 of many

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/13384280.stm
'A leaked email from a Police Service of Northern Ireland officer also spoke of the "unfortunate anti-social/sectarian behaviour of a number of our fans at the Scotland game".'

UTV News - Anger at sectarian songs after NI game
15 Feb 2011 ... The Irish Football Association has condemned the actions of a group of Northern Ireland fans who were captured on film singing sectarian

I was referring to the booing of Catholic players which I specifically took you up on in repsonse to the matters raised in your initial post.

Ffs sake, I made it clear I thought that it was part of an ongoing situation (it was the continuous present tense) which  would discourage nationalists from playing for NI, I said that given the scale of the booing there were bound to be still many fans attending who had been involved, and went on to say I doubt they had changed that much.

You asked what would lead me to believe that, I presented the above pieces. You read the posts and wrote responses so you clearly know how this has all followed through.

I'll quote you in future so you will have less opportunity to be selective in what you refer to, I had hoped I wouldnt have to.

Of course the ongoing situation does not involve the booing of Catholic players. It always  seems to be added to the list dominated by flags and emblems.

That's one less thing to be discouraged by.

I find it difficult to comprehend that the songs sung inside the ground could be offensive to Nationalists. The IFA have no control over those sung outside the ground.

On balance I would be up for a more regionally distinctive anthem.

Well there in lies the problem.

Where precisely?

Your lack of understanding of the Nationalist psyche and what offends.

Maybe?

Indeed I have said that I find it difficult to comprehend how the songs sung inside the Stadium could offend.I am aware of what is sung,   and  I genuinely hold that view.

Can you enlighten me?

Rule britania, the queen with the added references to loyalist paramilitaries, need I go on.

Please do.

I have not heard Rule Britannia sung at Wndsor Park for years.

When referring to songs I had assumed that we were dealing with those excuding the Anthem. I have stated that I would be for a regionally distinctive anthem in any event.

[Applesisapples]

It featured at the Aviva