Is the end of the Union in sight? (It may well be but then again…)

[lynchbhoy]

Elephants do not live in Ireland. Perhaps it is just a Púca  in your room?

Anyhow, I have listed ad nauseum  at length the reasons why I feel a UI is anything but inevitable.

Perhaps you might list for me your case* for why it is?

* - Merely saying "It will happen" is not good enough...
[/quote]
ad nauseum indeed - will I have to repeat how the british gov want rid of the money pit
how the british gov want the jobs back for England
the population swing
that the six counties are not rightfully belonging to England - remember invasion, plantation
(with all the other cointries handing back or have handed back occupied territories from africa, carribbean, asia, russia, germany etc etc)
making long term financial sense for both Irish and British govs etc etc etc...

get yer head out of the sand !

[Maguire01]

If you knew you were going to need money for a holiday - you would start saving money before the actual holiday date.

I'd put it on a credit card with 0% interest. 

But I don't see any reason why the unionists would start negotiating now, when there's no sign of any movement in sight for at least 20 years.

[lynchbhoy]

If you knew you were going to need money for a holiday - you would start saving money before the actual holiday date.

I'd put it on a credit card with 0% interest. 

But I don't see any reason why the unionists would start negotiating now, when there's no sign of any movement in sight for at least 20 years.

well thats a risky strategy by unionists/loyalists if that was the case (as its doomed to failure by ignoring this)
but we know that its not a strategy, its pretending it wont happen and therefore by ignoring it sure everything will stay rosy and great.

however the same aversion to change and same desire for retaining the status quo saw nationalists kepts as second class citizens
the same aversion to change and same desire for retaining the status quo kept the vote away from taigs as long as possible, kept them out of third level education as much as possible, kept them out of civil service and other higher echelon jobs
the same aversion to change and same desire for retaining the status quo allowed the persecution and oppression against catholics/Nationalists/Irish to go on up until GFA.
all the time unionists/loyalists saw this but while a handful spoke out about it, the rest preferred to cary on regardless.
Thats hardly right. Its borderline criminal. Certainly repulsive and unethical.

yes , it is correct - unionists/loyalists dont have to start talks.
But by keeping their heads in the sand again this time, they will lose the bargaining chips they have until they have nothing left.
As I said, its fine by me, they will be treated equally (not fairly- equally - the same as everyone else) in the reunited Ireland.
Its just that they usually whinge about getting more and wanting more (eg photos of IRA in lurid decommissioning poses) !

I dont know if you or evil myles 'get it' .
no bother if not.

[Evil Genius]

Elephants do not live in Ireland. Perhaps it is just a Púca  in your room?

Anyhow, I have listed ad nauseum  at length the reasons why I feel a UI is anything but inevitable.

Perhaps you might list for me your case* for why it is?

* - Merely saying "It will happen" is not good enough...

ad nauseum indeed - will I have to repeat how the british gov want rid of the money pit

Ah, the old "money pit" argument.
Well if that's your best shot, then you really don't have a case. For I've already demonstrated, with figures, how we've cut hundreds of millions from the bill since the end of Operation Banner alone - or didn't you read post #54 of this thread, earlier?
Add to that the revenue from the sale of redundant MOD sites.
Add to that the reduction in the bill for compensation for all those buildings etc which were destroyed during The Troubles eg £85 million alone for this atrocity alone: http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/10/newsid_2539000/2539265.stm
Then factor in the reduction which has already started, as the UK-wide cuts begin to bite.
Further, you need to allow for the introduction of a reduced Corporation Tax rate in NI, which needs to see a comparable reduction in the annual subvention for NI from Whitehall (in order to comply with EU State Regional Aid Rules): http://www.progtaxblog.org.uk/2011/03/28/why-cutting-corporation-tax-in-northern-ireland-means-public-spending-cuts-and-job-losses/
And finally, when you consider that NI has only 3% of the population of the UK, even if we were all driving Mercs courtesy of HMG, the simple fact is, NI is only a drop in the ocean of UK-wide spending - and then at a per capita  rate little higher than that of Wales and not much higher than Scotland's, who between them have nearly 5 times the population of NI.

how the british gov want the jobs back for England

Ah, " the jobs".
Exactly how many Government jobs do you think there are in NI (population < 2 million), to be somehow "repatriated" to GB (population > 57 million) and how much difference do you think they would make?
Here are some figures:
"Indeed, if the size of the Northern Ireland public sector is measured relative to the population (12.4%) the gap with the UK as a whole (9.4%) reduces significantly to just 3 percentage points."
http://www.dfpni.gov.uk/2009-10_pay_and_workforce_technical_annex.pdf
Bear in mind that the great majority of these public sector jobs simply cannot  be moved to GB (hospitals, schools, local Government etc). And of those few that might be, often these are in NI because with our lower cost of living, NI can sustain lower wages than GB i.e. it would cost the Exchequer more to pay people to do the same jobs on the mainland. 

the population swing

As the Election thread elsewhere clearly proves, the "population swing", much vaunted by Republicans, is actually having zero effect on voting patterns, this (voting) being the only way in which Republicans might hope to achieve a UI.

that the six counties are not rightfully belonging to England - remember invasion, plantation

No-one bar you is claiming that "the six counties" [sic] belong to "England" any more than England "belongs" to NI, for that is not how a Union works.
Rather, NI is one of the four nations which makes up the United Kingdom and as such, we have as much right to benefit from our position as any of the other 3 members.
Moreover, NI's position within the Union was universally recognised, including by the overwhelming majority of Irish people, North and South, in the GFA. You know, the GFA which you claim to support.
Anyhow, if you're still confused by the concept of a Union, try thinking about eg the Irish Republic's position within the European Union. that is, although it may appear that they are "owned" by Germany, France and, ahem, the UK, they are not. (Or, at least until they are unable to pay their Membership Fee, at which point we may need to send in the Bailiffs...)

P.S. I don't remember any invasion, orthe Plantation. Do you?

(with all the other cointries handing back or have handed back occupied territories from africa, carribbean, asia, russia, germany etc etc)

NI is "occupied" by the people who live there. And as such, it is the democratic right of those people, and theirs alone, to determine what their constitutional status should be. Moreover this right is universally recognised and accepted* (other than by a few dreamers and idiots etc who refuse to recognise reality). Therefore there is simply no question of anyone "handing back" anywhere to anyone; rather it is votes which will count.

* - That inconvenient GFA again, remember?

making long term financial sense for both Irish and British govs etc etc etc...

How so? (And merely typing "etc etc etc" does not constitute an argument).

Any authoritative papers? Any research? Some figures, perhaps?

No?

Thought not...

get yer head out of the sand !

Time you got a new catchphrase, I think.
I would suggest "Pieces of Eight" for you myself, only another bird-brain got there first...

[armaghniac]

But I don't see any reason why the unionists would start negotiating now, when there's no sign of any movement in sight for at least 20 years.

Yeah, right, don't worry about the pension, sure we are all young yet.

No-one bar you is claiming that "the six counties" [sic] belong to "England" any more than England "belongs" to NI, for that is not how a Union works.

But the government of the union have a clear opinion on this as they routinely called themselves the British government rather than the UK government, they routinely refer to British people rather than UK people and they have an army that is invariably called the British army rather than the UK. Nobody, including unionists, believe that the union of GB and NI is for the benefit of the people of NI, it is for the benefit of British people in Britian and British people in NI.

Rather, NI is one of the four nations

nation my arsé.

NI is "occupied" by the people who live there.

No doubt it is. However it was also occupied in political sense, on what date did it cease to be so occupied?

[lynchbhoy]

<sigh> evil myles
you just don't get or don't want to admit it!
Zero money spenditure as opposed to multi millions/ billions is the Brit gov perspective - your own blinkered biased view won't deter them!
Same for the jobs!
You just don't 'get' commercialism either obv!

Anyhow I've been pointing out for some time now your head in the sand lack of reality , no matter how you try to conjure up arbitrary 'stats' and long winded superflous posts with no actual real points or on topic realism.
But keep it up, you are demonstrating to the uninitiated southern contingent the fork tongue of unionist/loyalist 'arseboxing' talk with a view to never never never have to negotiate or 'power share' with the secon class citizens! ( though as this has failed on the first two, the never never never and unionist/loyalist lie - fest now turns it's lack of attention onto reunification and rebuilding a decent fair and inclusive political and economic country!)

[Evil Genius]

No-one bar you is claiming that "the six counties" [sic] belong to "England" any more than England "belongs" to NI, for that is not how a Union works.

But the government of the union have a clear opinion on this as they routinely called themselves the British government rather than the UK government, they routinely refer to British people rather than UK people and they have an army that is invariably called the British army rather than the UK.

I suppose we could rename them the United Kingdomish Government/people/Army* etc, but it's a bit unwieldy, don't you think and besides, it's the substance  which counts, not the designation?
Anyhow, whether we be English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh - we're all from the United Kingdomish British Isles... 



* - A thought occurs. As well as the (British) Army, Her Majesty's Armed Forces also comprise the Royal  Navy, Royal Air Force and Royal  Marines. Does that designation mean these last three aren't British? 

Nobody, including unionists, believe that the union of GB and NI is for the benefit of the people of NI, it is for the benefit of British people in Britian and British people in NI.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is intended/designed to be for the benefit of the people of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, whether all such people acknowledge and accept that or not.

Rather, NI is one of the four nations

nation my arsé.

Whatever.

(Btw, has anyone ever told you you've got an acute arse?)

NI is "occupied" by the people who live there.

No doubt it is. However it [NI] was also occupied in political sense, on what date did it cease to be so occupied?

Not sure.
My guess it was some time after it was occupied by the Celts, Vikings and Normans etc, but some time before the founding of other political constructs such as the USA and Canada; Australia and New Zealand; India, South Africa and virtually all of the countries of Central and South America. And many of those in Europe and Asia, too...

Maybe I should ask my four hundred year old grandfather, he might remember?

[Evil Genius]

<sigh> evil myles
you just don't get or don't want to admit it!
Zero money spenditure as opposed to multi millions/ billions is the Brit gov perspective - your own blinkered biased view won't deter them!
Same for the jobs!
You just don't 'get' commercialism either obv!

Anyhow I've been pointing out for some time now your head in the sand lack of reality , no matter how you try to conjure up arbitrary 'stats' and long winded superflous posts with no actual real points or on topic realism.
But keep it up, you are demonstrating to the uninitiated southern contingent the fork tongue of unionist/loyalist 'arseboxing' talk with a view to never never never have to negotiate or 'power share' with the secon class citizens! ( though as this has failed on the first two, the never never never and unionist/loyalist lie - fest now turns it's lack of attention onto reunification and rebuilding a decent fair and inclusive political and economic country!)

I am quite happy to let other posters, whether "Southern", "uninitiated" or otherwise, judge which of the two of us has something worthwhile to say.

In fact, when I reply to your posts, it is invariably for the benefit of others, for I have long since concluded that you are incapable of comprehending anything more advanced than "Sun" headlines, cliches, stereotypes and soundbites...

[armaghniac]

Anyhow, whether we be English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh - we're all from the United Kingdomish British Isles... 

When you haven't any reasonable response to the point, you come up with this sort of nonsense, complete with smiley.

The Isle of Man is in the Irish sea, but that does not make it Irish.

And of course you provided these telling ripostes

* - A thought occurs. As well as the (British) Army, Her Majesty's Armed Forces also comprise the Royal  Navy, Royal Air Force and Royal  Marines. Does that designation mean these last three aren't British? 

Maybe I should ask my four hundred year old grandfather, he might remember?

On such powerful arguments does the future of the UK rest.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

No-one bar you is claiming that "the six counties" [sic] belong to "England" any more than England "belongs" to NI, for that is not how a Union works.

But the government of the union have a clear opinion on this as they routinely called themselves the British government rather than the UK government, they routinely refer to British people rather than UK people and they have an army that is invariably called the British army rather than the UK.

I suppose we could rename them the United Kingdomish Government/people/Army* etc, but it's a bit unwieldy, don't you think and besides, it's the substance  which counts, not the designation?
Anyhow, whether we be English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh - we're all from the United Kingdomish British Isles... 



* - A thought occurs. As well as the (British) Army, Her Majesty's Armed Forces also comprise the Royal  Navy, Royal Air Force and Royal  Marines. Does that designation mean these last three aren't British? 

Nobody, including unionists, believe that the union of GB and NI is for the benefit of the people of NI, it is for the benefit of British people in Britian and British people in NI.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is intended/designed to be for the benefit of the people of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, whether all such people acknowledge and accept that or not.

Rather, NI is one of the four nations

nation my arsé.

Whatever.

(Btw, has anyone ever told you you've got an acute arse?)

NI is "occupied" by the people who live there.

No doubt it is. However it [NI] was also occupied in political sense, on what date did it cease to be so occupied?

Not sure.
My guess it was some time after it was occupied by the Celts, Vikings and Normans etc, but some time before the founding of other political constructs such as the USA and Canada; Australia and New Zealand; India, South Africa and virtually all of the countries of Central and South America. And many of those in Europe and Asia, too...

Maybe I should ask my four hundred year old grandfather, he might remember?

A term created by a known Imperalist who actually claimed proudly to be one in the court of Elizabeth I created this faux term to justify the Tudor reconquests and colonisation.

Its Ireland and Britain or f**k OFF.

[Evil Genius]

Anyhow, whether we be English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh - we're all from the United Kingdomish British Isles... 

When you haven't any reasonable response to the point, you come up with this sort of nonsense, complete with smiley.

The Isle of Man is in the Irish sea, but that does not make it Irish.

And of course you provided these telling ripostes

* - A thought occurs. As well as the (British) Army, Her Majesty's Armed Forces also comprise the Royal  Navy, Royal Air Force and Royal  Marines. Does that designation mean these last three aren't British? 

Maybe I should ask my four hundred year old grandfather, he might remember?

On such powerful arguments does the future of the UK rest.

Sometimes my points are serious, sometimes they are light-hearted.
I had hoped that my use of smilies etc with the latter was sufficient to distinguish between the two (along with a modicum of common sense on the part of the reader).
Do you need me to spell it out for you in future?

[Evil Genius]

Its Ireland and Britain or f**k OFF.

So shall we agree, then, we all live in the "Isles of Fcuk Off!"

Q. "Where do you come from?"
A. "Fcuk Off!"

I like it! 

P.S. If you're still there, Armaghniac, I'm being light-hearted again...

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

The Gaelic and Minor peoples Isles

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Its Ireland and Britain or f**k OFF.

So shall we agree, then, we all live in the "Isles of Fcuk Off!"

Q. "Where do you come from?"
A. "Fcuk Off!"

I like it! 

P.S. If you're still there, Armaghniac, I'm being light-hearted again...

I agree, everybody has been telling each other to f**k off for as long as the Irish Isles have been inhabited, as Ireland was an Island long before Britain it makes sense that Ireland should be the more senior of the two mainland islands.

[lynchbhoy]

I am quite happy to let other posters, whether "Southern", "uninitiated" or otherwise, judge which of the two of us has something worthwhile to say.
In fact, when I reply to your posts, it is invariably for the benefit of others, for I have long since concluded that you are incapable of comprehending anything more advanced than "Sun" headlines, cliches, stereotypes and soundbites...
[/quote]
Interestingly enough it was yourself who resorted to gutter tabloidesque name calling a short while ago possibly on this thread!
It is for the benefit of others that myself and now seemingly a few more reply to your posts. Perspective and opinion ate one thing, but your at worst lies or at best skewed truth and whataboutery cannot be allowed to be passed off as truth.
Meanwhile you should check your facts or sources on Brit gov perspective on jettisoning the north! Check out commercialism while you are at it!