Paddy O'Rourke Out!

[Applesisapples]

The county board are rotten to the core every single one of them! They should all be put out and a new board elected DEMOCRATICALLY! They don't seem to care about Armagh football and they definetl don't listen to what the genuine supporter thinks!

Bullsh88. This keeps coming up. Every year the clubs elect the county board, every CB meeting has delegates at them. Any club at any time can with enough support table motions to give effect to changes in policy, manpower etc. They don't though. The reason they don't is because no one wants to take on the amount of unpaid work it takes to undertake the roles. So we end up with people who want to do the job. They may not necesarily be the right person but they are the only ones in many case. the GAA is democratic, it's just that we the ordinary members choose not to exercise our rights. So what you get then is a selfserving club of men who have been there in many cases for years. You'll see them in the middle section of the stand at matches. It is not their fault though its ours...we don't want to do the work...we prefer to bitch.

I should add that I am not criticisng the County Officers as such, many do good work, but some have lost sight of their raison d'etre, but agin that is the club's fault.

[Minder]

Excellent post Rufus but I would be worried about the emphasis placed on finances in your analysis. Even if the moneys not there to the extent needed to attract the top money men, efforts need to be made to attract someone. The minor management for example deserve a shot and although maybe a year or two with the u21 would be beneficial I'd have them ahead of giving POR another year. Christ I'd even take JK back.

I might overrate the current group of players but I think at least on paper we should be top 6 and able to be competitive.  Earlier on this thread I went through the players achievements with teams pre this POR Armagh team and I think came to the conclusion that at most only two of them hadn't competiting in an AI final at one level or another so for me the quality of the player is there we just need a manager who can
harvest it. POR has shown he can't .

All that said I fully expect him to waste another year in charge next year as the CB would have too much egg on their face if they pushed him out.

David I think you place far too much importance in underage success and that it will automatically translate to senior success.

[Applesisapples]

Excellent post Rufus but I would be worried about the emphasis placed on finances in your analysis. Even if the moneys not there to the extent needed to attract the top money men, efforts need to be made to attract someone. The minor management for example deserve a shot and although maybe a year or two with the u21 would be beneficial I'd have them ahead of giving POR another year. Christ I'd even take JK back.

I might overrate the current group of players but I think at least on paper we should be top 6 and able to be competitive.  Earlier on this thread I went through the players achievements with teams pre this POR Armagh team and I think came to the conclusion that at most only two of them hadn't competiting in an AI final at one level or another so for me the quality of the player is there we just need a manager who can
harvest it. POR has shown he can't .

All that said I fully expect him to waste another year in charge next year as the CB would have too much egg on their face if they pushed him out.

David I think you place far too much importance in underage success and that it will automatically translate to senior success.

To be fair he has a point at least some of that minor squad should be breaking through, particularly up front where scores can be hard to find. I would reluctantly agree with Spillane when speaking about Jamie Clarke, he said that he proves skill beats muscle and physique any time... or words to that effect.

[PAULD123]

I am not surprised you want POR to go but that is an irrelevant desire. The only relevant question is who would you want to replace him?

POR is infinitely better than no-one, so obviously just sacking him for the sake of it would serve no purpose than indulging in the negative emotion of satisfaction through misdirected revenge. Sacking POR would only be positive if you can answer the only question that matters - who would replace him?

And remember McGeeney is not available (also in four years has never beaten Tyrone, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Down or Armagh in a championship match)

[Rufus T Firefly]

The county board are rotten to the core every single one of them! They should all be put out and a new board elected DEMOCRATICALLY! They don't seem to care about Armagh football and they definetl don't listen to what the genuine supporter thinks!

That is an absolutely ludicrous post. 

[thewobbler]

TYP:

- With regards to no.1, Paddy O'Rourke must be like a virus from hell if he has somehow managed to turn a group of previously sound defenders into a bunch of under-12 tacklers within 18 months. I think you're lying too much blame at the feet of the manager's coaching ability there. The truth is a bit simpler. As Armagh are now playing more expansive football with fewer defenders, their defenders therefore have an increased chance of having to confront an attacker who is moving at full speed, which is an infinitely more difficult (and card inducing) proposition than tackling a static player. This is the trade-off for attacking play. It's got feck all to do with tackling technique or referees.

- With regards to no.2, Armagh have the same problem as Down in that our players aren't at the same natural athletic level as Cork or Dublin, or to a lesser extent Tyrone. It doesn't matter so much against Dublin as they're not as good at football. You can train a team all you like, but you can't make them into something they're not, the same way that you couldn't train Xabi Alonso to do the running of Steven Gerrard. Again, tactically, this something Armagh's management should be mroe aware of; if you're going to go toe-to-toe with a fitter, better team, then you're going to end up getting beaten. You need to be cuter, and more ruthless.

[Rufus T Firefly]

A number of simple factors indicate that the current management doesn't have the basics of the modern game:

Whilst I agree with some of the points you make TYP, nowhere in your post do you address the elephant in the room. The players are not good enough at the highest level - that is the reality. In the last two Championship campaigns, we have been put out by superior teams - both probably top five teams - who simply should be beating us, all things being equal. Within Ulster, we have been beaten by teams who I would reckon we are probably on a par with - Derry and Monaghan.

You make the comparison with Donegal, and yet Tyrone will kick themselves for throwing away that game, whilst for us, depsite our tactical ineptitude against Derry, the game swung on thirty seconds of football that produced a six point swing. Donegal could quite easily have bee in the qualifiers at he same point as us, whilst for all our tactical ineptitude against Derry, it wouldn't have been too much of a stretch of the imagination to see us playing in an Ulster Final.   

I accept that there are issues with management, and indeed they would not be my ideal choice. I do not feel though that there will be an awful lot to gain by changing, and if change were to be considered in the future, then the issue of dollars is likely to be a factor.   

[LeoMc]

A number of simple factors indicate that the current management doesn't have the basics of the modern game:

1. Our players cannot tackle properly.  How often on Saturday night did you see players just throwing themselves at a running Tyrone player and letting him sidestep and run on.  Remember the days of the tackling clinics with top referees when JK would ensure that our players knew what was allowed and would stick to the rules.  We no longer have the capacity to play the referee, against Tyrone virtually all yelllow cards were for fouls for pulling an opponent around the neck or reaching over his shoulder.  No one on the sideline had the wit to get a message on to stop that.  Thankfully, the referee was useless and let the play run on when obvious fouls occurred, how often did the players appear to stop when a foul occurred only to be waved on?  A better referee would have ensured that Tyrone beat us on frees alone.  There is no coaching of the players on how to win the free or to tackle without conceding the free.  If management know who is going to referee the game with at least 5 days notice then it should be possible to coach the team on how to play him to their advantage.  This shows a management without a clue of the modern game.

2. Our players are not at a level of fitness that is required, imagined how they would fair against the likes of Cork or Dublin who have much higher levels of fitness and this is in the situation where a full time coach is employed allegedly for at least £75K per annum and players are training 6 days per week.  Tyrone have much less training without a fulltime coach and appeared to be fitter.

3. There is no system of play, as mentioned above, a player will never be given a chance to establish himself in a position and others have no idea of our to play together.  Look at last Saturday, they didn't know what to do, lump the ball in to Jamie Clarke or play it into space?  The lad is a real talent but he needs to know what to do to get the ball if he is to score.  We had no one in midfiled to hoover up the dirty ball when the midfielders started to break the ball.  Tyrone played Petey Harte in that role and we had no one and management couldn't even see that was where we were losing out on possession.

4. We have no defensive system, how many times with JK did we concede the level of scores that we have with POR? Virtually never with the exception of against Kerry in 2006 which was the beginning of the end.  We have dispensed with the sweeper, it looks like playing an "attractive" game is more important than winning.  To get anywhere, you must win dirty and grind out results in most games and not worry what the pundits say.  Donegal don't please many with their style but they are in the quarters.

And the players need to be told that?
If so the problems run much deeper than the Manager.

[David McKeown]

Excellent post Rufus but I would be worried about the emphasis placed on finances in your analysis. Even if the moneys not there to the extent needed to attract the top money men, efforts need to be made to attract someone. The minor management for example deserve a shot and although maybe a year or two with the u21 would be beneficial I'd have them ahead of giving POR another year. Christ I'd even take JK back.

I might overrate the current group of players but I think at least on paper we should be top 6 and able to be competitive.  Earlier on this thread I went through the players achievements with teams pre this POR Armagh team and I think came to the conclusion that at most only two of them hadn't competiting in an AI final at one level or another so for me the quality of the player is there we just need a manager who can
harvest it. POR has shown he can't .

All that said I fully expect him to waste another year in charge next year as the CB would have too much egg on their face if they pushed him out.

David I think you place far too much importance in underage success and that it will automatically translate to senior success.

I might place too much emphasis on underage success but I don't think it will translate automatically but and this is the big but for me this isn't a squad based solely around one or two successful under age teams. This is a squad who are drawn from a number of successful teams at different levels. There (if I understand the starting line up from Saturday correctly) were 4 players who have started or won at least one Senior All Ireland Inter County finals. At least 5 who have won an u21 all Ireland. At least 3 who have won club all irelands and at least 2 Sigerson winners. The point I'm making is that these players have been able to be successful in sides other than the current Armagh side but under POR they look ordinary. To me that is more down to the quality of the manager than the quality of the player. I honestly think we have a very very good squad but they are massively underperforming because of POR. Time will of course no doubt prove me wrong but hey I'm used to that at this stage.

[Applesisapples]

One big problem with bringing in an outside manager is results, ie he knows that if he doesn't get results immediately then forums like this will have a XXX out thread...just like this one. but more importantly both Clubs and County Boards will exert pressure. If we are to develop and introduce the young players that are out there and I can think of a few from the U21 panel then we need someone who is Armagh through and through who like the two Brians is prepared to work at getting the team competing at a higher level. I am surprised that no one has mentioned Paul McShane. I would agree with Rufus in that we have some players in the current setup who are not equipped to play at this level and never will be. There are others out there who deserve a chance. If the CB want to keep POR and I would accept that he probably has done enough to deserve another year despite my concerns then perhaps we need to look at bringing in some one to take over. Time to eat humble pie with John Raff?

[Orior]

One big problem with bringing in an outside manager is results, ie he knows that if he doesn't get results immediately then forums like this will have a XXX out thread...just like this one. but more importantly both Clubs and County Boards will exert pressure. If we are to develop and introduce the young players that are out there and I can think of a few from the U21 panel then we need someone who is Armagh through and through who like the two Brians is prepared to work at getting the team competing at a higher level. I am surprised that no one has mentioned Paul McShane. I would agree with Rufus in that we have some players in the current setup who are not equipped to play at this level and never will be. There are others out there who deserve a chance. If the CB want to keep POR and I would accept that he probably has done enough to deserve another year despite my concerns then perhaps we need to look at bringing in some one to take over. Time to eat humble pie with John Raff?

Bejayus! Could you not have added some warning or alert that you were going to finish with that last sentence? I nearly cowpped over. Who is he managing these days?

[stew]

I think Paddy should get another crack at it, he was the man at the helm when we managed to stay in the top flight even though we had no business staying up, he has had key injuries at the wiorst possible times and although we are an up and coming side we are nowhere near the 99-05 vintage and we have to realize that.

I was horrified when he got the job however I did support him once he took the helm and although he is not the best manager out there I just dont know if we are good enough to have any higher aspirations at the moment and I dont know that the likes of big joe would have made that much of a difference.

[Moortown Spuds]

I cant believe POR didnt succeed with the best back line in Ireland! Shame, crying shame!

[mountainboii]

I think Paddy should get another crack at it, he was the man at the helm when we managed to stay in the top flight even though we had no business staying up, he has had key injuries at the wiorst possible times and although we are an up and coming side we are nowhere near the 99-05 vintage and we have to realize that.

I was horrified when he got the job however I did support him once he took the helm and although he is not the best manager out there I just dont know if we are good enough to have any higher aspirations at the moment and I dont know that the likes of big joe would have made that much of a difference.

f**k me, you're right! Why haven't any of us eejits travelling the country to watch these bucks ever realised this before? Why hasn't anyone else ever pointed this out before? Thank you stew, thank you for this wonderful enlightenment!

[ck]

...as a man said to me today, it's not POR is the problem, it's the bloody ejits who appointed him!

POR has got much criticism on these boards, most of it justified however the point that is often overlooked is that Paddy had a desperatly poor backroom team.