Doomsday+1

[SammyG]

Sammy, fair enough point about the ROI soccer team.  In fairness, I couldn't care less how many supporters they have or don't have.  If they have such failing numbers maybe they should look at the causes for it and begin building from scratch again and develop one of their club grounds to meet required standard.

Agreed

The point though about a stadium in the north is though more relevant. There is going to be a new stadium, no matter where it is and I think it should be made amenable and suitable for the 3 sports.

Agreed that would be the best option, if it's doable.

 If the IFA cannot get 40k out to watch an international game well maybe there is something missing.  The GAA can regularly get in excess of 30k to Ulster championship matches and you are taking from a smaller pool than for a NI match.  If the NI soccer team is to be seen as a success it needs to have a more universal appeal and therefore issues, such as the perceived and apparent, sectarianism associated with it needs to be resolved.

I would love to be watching NI amongst a 90k crowd, every match but in the real world it's not possible. France has a population of 59 million and their national stadium is 80K, Portugal has a population of 39 million the national stadium has a capacity of 38K. NI has a population of only 1.5 million (including a sizeable number who don't and won't support NI) so the idea of getting 40K plus is just a pipe-dream. I totally agree that we need to continue the good work that has been done but don't see how this can add up to crowds that are bigger than any other team in Europe (pro-rata).

 I also believe that there will be an all Ireland soccer team in the future and if the team had a Stadium based in the North that would be a huge step forward for things both sporting and political.

Unlikely in either of our lifetimes so it's irrelevant to the current discussion.

As to your point about CP not being full for all rugby tests, you are essentially agreeing with me.  Croke Park would be full for say a Wales or an England game, but not for an Italy game.  It should therefore be played at the stadium in the North.

Agreed

 If Ulster had a big Heinekein Cup match(presuming it will still be in existence) it could be promoted more and played at the new stadium but the smaller games liek the Magners League could still be played at Ravenhill.

Agreed and Ulster have already said that they are upgrading Ravenhill and will only use a new stadium when it suits their needs.

 I think you are very myopic in your approach to the whole issue and only see it from a soccer point of view.

My primary issue is obviously the NI international team but I also attend approx 20 Ulster rugby matches and as many internationals as I can get tickets for.

 As regards the GAA not naming which games that will be played there, I would safely say that whatever games are played in the new stadium would be full houses and on a sufficient importance to make the venture a worthwhile one.

The GAA have been asked, several times, to give details of which matches will be played at the new stadium and have either not answered or given a non-specific 'whenever we need it' type answer. It has been announced that the GAA will be the biggest rent payer, so they'll need to be playing a lot of games to justify the rent.

[SammyG]

Sammy,

funny - I read that you said there were no plans to increase the capacity to 42k/35k.
Even funnier, I recalled reading several press reports (thee bbc site was just one) which siad that original plans had been revised, and there were now new plans.

FFS, to make it easier for you to undersatand, i even highlighted the word plans in the BBC report.

Re

I know that there has been an announcement about the new capacity and I have read the announcement. What hasn't happened yet is any details of how this new capacity can be achieved and how much this will cost?

As previously stated, the outline plans have been given to the world class HOK design team.
See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6288213.stm

It is the design team's responsibility to create detailed plans that will implement the project requirements, one of which is the 42k/35k variable capacity.
I for one look forward to their publication.

FFS stop trying to pick a fight and contradicting yourself. I said there are no plans or costings, you answer this by saying that you disagree with me but then produce and article which says that there are no plans or costings .

[snatter]

Sammy,

it is you, not I who is contradictory.

You said there are no plans for a 42k/35k dual capacity stadium.
You (eventually) conceded that there was ana announcement to that effect, but then I think you were trying to imply that an announcement did not correlate to a plan.

I refuted your assertion by showing you the news report which clearly stated, in no fewer than 3 places, that there were in fact new plans.
I helpfully quoted the whole article, highlighting each reported instance of the new revised plan.

It is incontovertible that there are new plans to have a dual 42k/35k capacity. This requirement has gone forward to the design team, HOK.
They will incorporate it into their detailed plans.

As before, jsut because you diasagree with it, doesn't make it untrue.

Moving on,

The GAA have been asked, several times, to give details of which matches will be played at the new stadium and have either not answered or given a non-specific 'whenever we need it' type answer. It has been announced that the GAA will be the biggest rent payer, so they'll need to be playing a lot of games to justify the rent.

The GAA are deadly keen on getting a 40000 + capacity stadium in the North.
For full details read Section 8.4.3 of GAA Strategic Review report

re GAA's stadia requirements:

One 'major' stadium should be developed in each Province with the exception of Leinster; (A 'major' stadium would involve a capacity of 40,000 to 60,000, of which at least two-thirds would be seated and a minimum of 35% of the seats
would be covered.)

The GAA's economic case appears to be backed up by an interim report by Department of Economics University College Cork. see

http://www.ucc.ie/academic/economics/research/workingpapers/03-01.pdf

The Maze delivers what the GAA needs.

[SammyG]

Ok I'll try a different approach. Can you post a link to the plans and costings (not to the announcement that plans are to be developed)?

[amallon]

What about temporary seating?  If temporary seating in Hill16 is ok for Internation soccer matches why can't they do the same at the maze.  Have a smaller capacity for soccer games all seated, then convert some of the seated area to terrace for GAA games.

[brokencrossbar1]

Leaving aside our eternal disagreement as to when there will be no border either sporting or political  you agree with basically everything I say apart from the size of the stadium.  

Firstly, in regards to comparing the national staiums of different countries, that is a bit of a red herring.  You cannot make proportional arguments like that as no matter how big a population is the limits to a stadium are defined by space, practicality of location and safety.  I counter your argument that Stade de France has capacity of 80k and population of 59 million with Croke Park 82k Ireland 5.5million.  The reality is that because NI soccer team is mainly supported by one side of the community and has a history of sectarianism associated with it, a large chunk of the population are either uncomfortable or unwilling to support them.  By building a smaller stadium now not only is that limiting its current usage but also limiting the future vision of making it more amenable to nationalists to follow.

As you say the GAA is going to be the largest rent payer and it would not be a big leap to say that there will be sufficiently important games to make it commercially viable for them to do this.

[snatter]

SammyG,

Can you post a link to the plans and costings

I will once HOK have produced them. Already answered:

As previously stated, the outline plans have been given to the world class HOK design team.
See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6288213.stm

It is the design team's responsibility to create detailed plans that will implement the project requirements, one of which is the 42k/35k variable capacity.

As stated before, I look forward to their publication.

Aidan,

from the BBC report, it appears that the compromise 42k seated standing /35k seated capacity appears to satisfy all three bodies.
I think its a good compromise.

[SammyG]

What about temporary seating?  If temporary seating in Hill16 is ok for Internation soccer matches why can't they do the same at the maze.  Have a smaller capacity for soccer games all seated, then convert some of the seated area to terrace for GAA games.

Temporary seating has been banned by both FIFA and UEFA. Any stadiums and teams that currently have temporary seating (including the RoI) are allowed to continue with them but only if they have a new stadium on the way. No new stadiums are allowed temp seating.

[SammyG]

SammyG,

Can you post a link to the plans and costings

I will once HOK have produced them.

So that's got us back to my original point, which is that the plans and costings don't exist. Christ that took a while but we got there in the end.

[snatter]

WRONG SammyG!

Your original point, and I quote, was:

Quote
I've no problem with a shared stadium but there are currently no plans for a 40K plus capacity, in Northern Ireland/6 counties/the North.

The two current options are the Maze white elephant with 35K capacity or a Belfast stadium with either 25 or 30K capacity depending on which developer gets the go ahead.

At this stage, I hope that you now realise that there are definite plans for a 42k/35k stadium at the Maze.
I hope you accept that there was an announcement to this effect.
I hope you accept that all three sports bodies are reported as supporting the compromise 42k/35k compromise.
I hope you accept that the outline plans have been forwarded to HOK, and that detailed plans and costings will follow.

[SammyG]

WRONG SammyG!

Your original point, and I quote, was:

Quote
I've no problem with a shared stadium but there are currently no plans for a 40K plus capacity, in Northern Ireland/6 counties/the North.

The two current options are the Maze white elephant with 35K capacity or a Belfast stadium with either 25 or 30K capacity depending on which developer gets the go ahead.

At this stage, I hope that you now realise that there are definite plans for a 42k/35k stadium at the Maze.
I hope you accept that there was an announcement to this effect.
I hope you accept that all three sports bodies are reported as supporting the compromise 42k/35k compromise.
I hope you accept that the outline plans have been forwarded to HOK, and that detailed plans and costings will follow.

Oh FFS I give up. Yes there are plans, I've read them and think they're great but I just enjoy a fight. There you go, is that better. 

[Pangurban]

How can I win now? My position is undermined because I represent and promote the hedonistic, drug-addled values of a corrupt society, afraid to be who I am and selling the GAA down the river, while you argue from a position of moral superiority.

Apoligies Hardy that was a stupid statement i made, i realised it when i typed it but was to lazy to go back and make changes.What i really meant to express was the view that in a society dominated by commerce and consumerism with a media who takes it world view from New York and London, the G.A.A. should be providing an alternative view. In order to do so it must have the courage to maintain its own convictions and not succumb too pressure.

[Hardy]

No apology necessary Pangurban, but thank you for the gracious response.