Who says the Bookie doesn't lose.

[gerrykeegan]

Celtic Bookmakers goes into receivership
Updated: 12:35, Tuesday, 4 January 2011
AIB has appointed a receiver to Celtic Bookmakers Ltd.

1 of 1  Betting shops - Job losses inevitable at Yates firm AIB has appointed a receiver to Celtic Bookmakers Ltd. A statement from the directors, former minister Ivan Yates and his wife Deirdre, said significant job losses at the betting shops were inevitable.

The receiver, Neil Hughes of Hughes Blake Accountants, will try to sell as many of the shops as possible as a going concern, while other shops will close in the coming days.

The directors said they would work with the receiver to retain as many of the firm's 237 jobs as possible. Celtic has 47 shops in Ireland.

[Lone Shark]

The betting shop market got hugely skewed over the last five or six years, largely due to a couple of factors:

(1) The large number of lads in the early twenties getting 700 a week or more cash in hand working in construction - these lads threw fifty euro notes over the counter as if it was loose change. If they dropped 300 of a day, it meant nothing to them because their only expenses were beer, petrol and other car related costs.

(2) The degree of automation and computerisation in taking the bets meant that there became little or no skill to the art of being a betting shop clerk. It was never a well paid job but now it could be done by anyone.

(3) A couple of big chains, one in particular, went around buying betting shops for crazy money. There were instances of shops barely open a year, with a leased premises and no substantial fixed assets changing hands for over half a million euro, and more again occasionally. This led to a lot of people opening betting shops with a view to selling them on, who gave no thought to whether or not the shop was a viable business in the location where they set up.


What a lot of people didn't realise was the increasing levels of costs. Where once you had to provide SIS, now there is SIS, Racing Channel, Sky Sports and Setanta all to be paid for. Too many bookies are running up bills, most notably tax, and are skating on thin ice. I have no knowledge of the specifics of Celtic's situation, but I expect this to become commonplace.

If we took mid 2010 as a high water mark, I would have given a completely personal, non-researched numbers-from-nowhere view that:

15% of bookie shops were actually making money.
15% of bookie shops were just about breaking even. These are the ones with no huge debt from refurbishment, etc.
20% of bookie shops are losing money, but have enough put by in the good times to ride out the rough times, and will return to small profitability when the recession ends and the industry has stabilised.
20% of bookie shops are losing money and will never pay their way, however they are part of bigger chains who won't want to be seen to close shops. Indigenous Irish firms in particular will be very reluctant to be seen to take a backward step and while they might regret the decision to open that particular shop, they'll hold it and sustain small losses in the long run.
30% of bookies shops open last summer will close in the next 24 months.

Many would argue that 30% is conservative, but since there has been a fair degree of consolidation, the strength of the group will shelter a few individual outlets. However it's no secret that there are several betting shops out there that have little or no monetary value, and anyone who wanted to get into the trade would have no problem taking over a going concern for no money down. Off the top of my head I can't think of any Celtic shops that would have any real value, so fair play to the receiver if he gets people to take them over.

*Please note that I am presuming here that all the shops are leased - obviously it's different if there is a premises involved.


Also, the lesson here for a lot of people is that if you're betting on anything going on more than a day or two away, for example Cheltenham, you'll have to do a lot more than look at best price. I don't know of any single bookmaker doing this for certain, however you can rest assured that if you do have a bookie who's in a bit of bother, and this could include a small chain, there will be a temptation to offer even money about Big Bucks or 5/2 about Master Minded, get thousands in the bag now to meet payroll for another few weeks, and just be ready to dart out the emergency exit if the wrong horse gets up the hill first in March.

[Donnellys Hollow]

It's no wonder Yates was pushing so hard for FOBTs to be introduced into Ireland.

[Kerry Mike]

what's the odds on Yates running for election again in a few weeks ?

[Lone Shark]

what's the odds on Yates running for election again in a few weeks ?

Bearing in mind that since he has given personal guarantees and has gone on the radio stating that he will lose his family farm and his mother will lose her house, I'd say it's reasonable to presume he'll be bankrupt, which will rule him out by rule.

In fairness to him, he appears to have done the honourable thing here and not tried to salvage the unsalvageable, while at the same time putting every personal cent he could into the business. The revenue will be left owed feck all, punters will get paid out and every effort will be made to try and save the jobs.

It's not nice, but it contrasts very sharply with the carry on in the construction trade, where every sub contractor out there is looking like getting stiffed by someone and possibly losing tools and other assets as well.

[seafoid]

The fallout from the collapse of Fianna Fáil's neoliberal economic model is going to cause savage hardship in 2011. 

[An Gaeilgoir]

what's the odds on Yates running for election again in a few weeks ?

As soon as i heard of the closure of his betting chain, i thought the same thing. It would make listing his outside business interests a lot easier, if elected.

[Lone Shark]

The fallout from the collapse of Fianna Fáil's neoliberal economic model is going to cause savage hardship in 2011.

Don't overestimate them. There was no model, no philosophy, no grand scheme, no matter how badly designed. There was a seat-of-the-pants do what it takes to win the next election off the cuff system of governance, with a nod and a wink to those of preferred status. To say that there was any particular line of thinking conjured up by Charlie McCreevy the free marketeer and Bertie Ahern the Socialist (to give them their own titles - not the ones I'd give them) is to give them a credit they don't deserve.

[IolarCoisCuain]

Hard not to feel very sorry for Ivan Yates.

The Shark knows his onions, as ever.

[The Worker]

The betting shop market got hugely skewed over the last five or six years, largely due to a couple of factors:

(1) The large number of lads in the early twenties getting 700 a week or more cash in hand working in construction - these lads threw fifty euro notes over the counter as if it was loose change. If they dropped 300 of a day, it meant nothing to them because their only expenses were beer, petrol and other car related costs.

(2) The degree of automation and computerisation in taking the bets meant that there became little or no skill to the art of being a betting shop clerk. It was never a well paid job but now it could be done by anyone.

(3) A couple of big chains, one in particular, went around buying betting shops for crazy money. There were instances of shops barely open a year, with a leased premises and no substantial fixed assets changing hands for over half a million euro, and more again occasionally. This led to a lot of people opening betting shops with a view to selling them on, who gave no thought to whether or not the shop was a viable business in the location where they set up.


What a lot of people didn't realise was the increasing levels of costs. Where once you had to provide SIS, now there is SIS, Racing Channel, Sky Sports and Setanta all to be paid for. Too many bookies are running up bills, most notably tax, and are skating on thin ice. I have no knowledge of the specifics of Celtic's situation, but I expect this to become commonplace.

If we took mid 2010 as a high water mark, I would have given a completely personal, non-researched numbers-from-nowhere view that:

15% of bookie shops were actually making money.
15% of bookie shops were just about breaking even. These are the ones with no huge debt from refurbishment, etc.
20% of bookie shops are losing money, but have enough put by in the good times to ride out the rough times, and will return to small profitability when the recession ends and the industry has stabilised.
20% of bookie shops are losing money and will never pay their way, however they are part of bigger chains who won't want to be seen to close shops. Indigenous Irish firms in particular will be very reluctant to be seen to take a backward step and while they might regret the decision to open that particular shop, they'll hold it and sustain small losses in the long run.
30% of bookies shops open last summer will close in the next 24 months.

Many would argue that 30% is conservative, but since there has been a fair degree of consolidation, the strength of the group will shelter a few individual outlets. However it's no secret that there are several betting shops out there that have little or no monetary value, and anyone who wanted to get into the trade would have no problem taking over a going concern for no money down. Off the top of my head I can't think of any Celtic shops that would have any real value, so fair play to the receiver if he gets people to take them over.

*Please note that I am presuming here that all the shops are leased - obviously it's different if there is a premises involved.


Also, the lesson here for a lot of people is that if you're betting on anything going on more than a day or two away, for example Cheltenham, you'll have to do a lot more than look at best price. I don't know of any single bookmaker doing this for certain, however you can rest assured that if you do have a bookie who's in a bit of bother, and this could include a small chain, there will be a temptation to offer even money about Big Bucks or 5/2 about Master Minded, get thousands in the bag now to meet payroll for another few weeks, and just be ready to dart out the emergency exit if the wrong horse gets up the hill first in March.

LS would this be similar up North? 

[bennydorano]

Never came across them at all, where are they based/most locations?

[ross matt]

what's the odds on Yates running for election again in a few weeks ?

Bearing in mind that since he has given personal guarantees and has gone on the radio stating that he will lose his family farm and his mother will lose her house, I'd say it's reasonable to presume he'll be bankrupt, which will rule him out by rule.

In fairness to him, he appears to have done the honourable thing here and not tried to salvage the unsalvageable, while at the same time putting every personal cent he could into the business. The revenue will be left owed feck all, punters will get paid out and every effort will be made to try and save the jobs.

It's not nice, but it contrasts very sharply with the carry on in the construction trade, where every sub contractor out there is looking like getting stiffed by someone and possibly losing tools and other assets as well.

Presume you listened to the Last Word interview Lone Shark?
I agree 100pc with your take on it. He was refreshingly honest and responsible in contrast to the run for cover antics of developers, bankers and politicians in the last 2 years. I think he has the ability to bounce back. Hope he does.

[Bogball XV]

what's the odds on Yates running for election again in a few weeks ?

As soon as i heard of the closure of his betting chain, i thought the same thing. It would make listing his outside business interests a lot easier, if elected.

he's fairly well established on newstalk a a presenter, seems to enjoy it - i'd be surprised if he goes back to politics?

[Maiden1]

The betting shop market got hugely skewed over the last five or six years, largely due to a couple of factors:

(1) The large number of lads in the early twenties getting 700 a week or more cash in hand working in construction - these lads threw fifty euro notes over the counter as if it was loose change. If they dropped 300 of a day, it meant nothing to them because their only expenses were beer, petrol and other car related costs.

(2) The degree of automation and computerisation in taking the bets meant that there became little or no skill to the art of being a betting shop clerk. It was never a well paid job but now it could be done by anyone.

(3) A couple of big chains, one in particular, went around buying betting shops for crazy money. There were instances of shops barely open a year, with a leased premises and no substantial fixed assets changing hands for over half a million euro, and more again occasionally. This led to a lot of people opening betting shops with a view to selling them on, who gave no thought to whether or not the shop was a viable business in the location where they set up.


What a lot of people didn't realise was the increasing levels of costs. Where once you had to provide SIS, now there is SIS, Racing Channel, Sky Sports and Setanta all to be paid for. Too many bookies are running up bills, most notably tax, and are skating on thin ice. I have no knowledge of the specifics of Celtic's situation, but I expect this to become commonplace.

If we took mid 2010 as a high water mark, I would have given a completely personal, non-researched numbers-from-nowhere view that:

15% of bookie shops were actually making money.
15% of bookie shops were just about breaking even. These are the ones with no huge debt from refurbishment, etc.
20% of bookie shops are losing money, but have enough put by in the good times to ride out the rough times, and will return to small profitability when the recession ends and the industry has stabilised.
20% of bookie shops are losing money and will never pay their way, however they are part of bigger chains who won't want to be seen to close shops. Indigenous Irish firms in particular will be very reluctant to be seen to take a backward step and while they might regret the decision to open that particular shop, they'll hold it and sustain small losses in the long run.
30% of bookies shops open last summer will close in the next 24 months.

Many would argue that 30% is conservative, but since there has been a fair degree of consolidation, the strength of the group will shelter a few individual outlets. However it's no secret that there are several betting shops out there that have little or no monetary value, and anyone who wanted to get into the trade would have no problem taking over a going concern for no money down. Off the top of my head I can't think of any Celtic shops that would have any real value, so fair play to the receiver if he gets people to take them over.

*Please note that I am presuming here that all the shops are leased - obviously it's different if there is a premises involved.


Also, the lesson here for a lot of people is that if you're betting on anything going on more than a day or two away, for example Cheltenham, you'll have to do a lot more than look at best price. I don't know of any single bookmaker doing this for certain, however you can rest assured that if you do have a bookie who's in a bit of bother, and this could include a small chain, there will be a temptation to offer even money about Big Bucks or 5/2 about Master Minded, get thousands in the bag now to meet payroll for another few weeks, and just be ready to dart out the emergency exit if the wrong horse gets up the hill first in March.

Sounds like Barney Eastwood did well to get out when he did.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0207/ladbrokes-business.html

[Lone Shark]

The betting shop market got hugely skewed ......
..... if the wrong horse gets up the hill first in March.

LS would this be similar up North?

Yes and no. The same thing has happened to the customer base, and obviously the knock on effects for bookies' turnover is there to see. On the other hand, it was the easiest thing in the world to be handed a bookmakers' licence down south, so there was a huge proliferation in the number of startups. I'm not au fait with the market in the wee six to the same extent, but I do know that it wasn't as simple a process as it was down here.

The other side of that coin is of course shops up there don't have Sunday, which is a big trading day down here. I used to be involved with a company that had an office in Belturbet and they got a big boost on Sundays from lads travelling down to bet. That may put shops under pressure that wouldn't be quite as badly off down here.

I'm not trying to claim that my numbers for the south are anything more than an educated guess, but up there I wouldn't even be educated enough to make a guess - there would be others on here in a better place to surmise. My gut feeling is that there is some froth, but not nearly as much. As with the south, it would be the small independents who will feel the squeeze most.

Never came across them at all, where are they based/most locations?

Obviously the hub was in the southeast and there were several down there, however they bought Molloys which gave them a good few Dublin shops three or four years ago, and they tended to have outlets dotted across the major towns. Their shops in Athlone and Galway had huge square footage, but just never caught the imagination of the locals - to refer to the two I'd know best.

Presume you listened to the Last Word interview Lone Shark?
I agree 100pc with your take on it. He was refreshingly honest and responsible in contrast to the run for cover antics of developers, bankers and politicians in the last 2 years. I think he has the ability to bounce back. Hope he does.

Didn't hear that one, caught him on the news all right. I actually was surprised, initially. I had been listening to that plank Gavin Duffy on the radio that morning and had heard them say that Ivan was on holidays until the 17th, and then when I heard this I presumed he was running for cover - but in fairness it was nothing of the sort. People in the trade would know that it would be very easy to loot a bookmaking chain if you were in trouble. To resist the temptation to do this with so much coming down the line is admirable - while if I was a member of Celtic's staff, I'd be gutted obviously but it would be hard to say that there was a single thing more he could have done.

Sounds like Barney Eastwood did well to get out when he did.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0207/ladbrokes-business.html

Absolutely. I will say that the industry is rife with speculation regarding that deal, however for obvious reasons I won't be going into any detail on that here. But yes, Ladbrokes paid huge sums for those shops and would certainly think differently as a company now, as would everyone who made any major purchase in that time.