Margaret Thatcher....

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

There remains a possibility that a poll on the issue returns a majority in the 6 counties wishing to remain within the Union but a very clear majority wishing to join the Republic of Ireland in certain areas, contiguous with the existing border (some of which will be whole counties and some will not).

Tell us this, how small would an area have to be for you not to give the overwhelming weight of your bias to the unionist/loyalist 'right' to carve up territory to create a majority where otherwise they'd be in the minority?

Where's the cut-off point, where it actually dawns on you that maybe they should just suck it up or ship out?

[LCohen]

I do deny that the Ard Rí ruled the island of Ireland as a stable, united single entity

I'll repeat what I've said before on this thread, and which you have studiously ignored:

• Ireland was a unitary state prior to the Norman invasion of 1169, not a very unified unitary state, but a homogeneous state in geographical, cultural, and traditional terms nonetheless. And judged by contemporary political entities, there was no state that was more unified in the world at that particular time (none of this disingenuous nonsense of comparing Ireland in the first millenium with political norms in the third).
• The 6 Counties were drawn up on a purely crude sectarian headcount basis (predicated on the threat or (copious) use of 'loyalist' violence, which is OK with you it seems) -- Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan would have been included, if the border bigots weren't fearful for their 'majority in perpetuity'. And nationalist Fermanagh and Tyrone were included in their carve-up since they thought their majority in the other 4 counties would always outweigh the nationalist preponderance therein; though they were wrong, as it's demographically dawning on them now.
• Should that eventuality come to pass, where the unionists are outvoted in the 6 Counties, and as looks very likely demographically now, they [some unionists] have indicated they won't accept that expression of wish of the new 'majority', and will either fight to resist or agitate to have the lines of partition redrawn -- you'll find no problem with that perspective either I assume?
  

You realise that you've been demolished here at every turn, what little credibility you might have had on the subject has vanished like the pretensions of a majoritarian unionist to 'democracy' when faced with the prospect of actually being in the democratic minority!

Tell me too, how the self-avowedly Irish Unionists of 1921 suddenly became British Unionists in 1922? What piece of magical transmogrification was involved in that particular piece of the intrigue?

An accusation that I have studiously ignored questions can be exploded by an a review of the answers I have given. Your entitlement to even raise the point is underminded by the questons you have left unanswered.

On your first point you admit yourself that Ireland was not ruled as a "very unified unitary state." At least we can move on from the pretence that it was was from within the Ireland. What then is the basi that Ireland must be viewed as a single unitary entity and that when a clear majority exists in one part of the island that it should have been ignored by a a contary majority on the island as whole? Where does the obvousness of the united island come from?

On your second point I have stated that I am happy for the border to be redrawn now or at any time to reflect a proper vote under the terms of modern universal adult suffrage. Ar republicans? Will they answer the questions I have posed in earlier posts on this specific matter?

I find your third point absoultely incredulous. Should there be a majority in NI wishing to join RoI in a single nation and elements within NI resist this with violence I would expect that full force of the law to come down on them. What specific evidebce do you have that my view would be othe than that? Really you must answer that point.

Rather than being demolished I think I have answere every point. Questions I have asked remain unanswered and inferences drawn

[LCohen]

There remains a possibility that a poll on the issue returns a majority in the 6 counties wishing to remain within the Union but a very clear majority wishing to join the Republic of Ireland in certain areas, contiguous with the existing border (some of which will be whole counties and some will not).

Tell us this, how small would an area have to be for you not to give the overwhelming weight of your bias to the unionist/loyalist 'right' to carve up territory to create a majority where otherwise they'd be in the minority?

Where's the cut-off point, where it actually dawns on you that maybe they should just suck it up or ship out?

The post of mine that you have quoted illustrates a scenario where the majority in the 6 counties want to stay in the UK. Surely you would have no difficulty with that vote being respected?

The post goes on to illustrate that that could well be "a very clear majority wishing to join the Republic of Ireland in certain areas, contiguous with the existing border (some of which will be whole counties and some will not)". You do realise that I have no problem with that area enjoyin the fruits of their democratic vote. The residual NI would by implication have an even bigger unionist majority and therefire the likelihood of international law accepting an overrideing of a democratic vote an impossibility.

The scenario you seem to be advocating is this:
1) Have a vote.
2) Move the border to reflect those areas with majority in favour of joining international law.
3) Ignore the will of the majority in the residual areas
4) Ask the international community to accept point 3.

Why has nobody put theri face in front of the cameras and advocated such a plan?

Truth is SF don't support such a plan.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

On your first point you admit yourself that Ireland was not ruled as a "very unified unitary state." At least we can move on from the pretence that it was was from within the Ireland. What then is the basi that Ireland must be viewed as a single unitary entity and that when a clear majority exists in one part of the island that it should have been ignored by a a contary majority on the island as whole? Where does the obvousness of the united island come from?

Nowhere on the planet was ruled as you suggest here, so it's a straw man argument -- Ireland was as evolved politically as anywhere else on the globe at that particular time, as a single political, cultural, traditional and geographical entity.

On your second point I have stated that I am happy for the border to be redrawn now or at any time to reflect a proper vote under the terms of modern universal adult suffrage. Ar republicans? Will they answer the questions I have posed in earlier posts on this specific matter?

Why the feck should the border (that should never have been in the first place) be redrawn repeatedly? Your questions are a nonsense, since they implicitly embody this 'right' of the unionist/loyalist population of Ireland to continually redefine boundaries to contrive sectarian majorities. Your head's up your arse on that one.

I find your third point absoultely incredulous. Should there be a majority in NI wishing to join RoI in a single nation and elements within NI resist this with violence I would expect that full force of the law to come down on them. What specific evidebce do you have that my view would be othe than that? Really you must answer that point.

Well, you called Nally Stand 'crazed and demented' when he pointed up the forced population migrations involved when partition was imposed in 1922, when state sponsored unionist/loyalist pogroms weren't just tolerated but very actively encouraged. Just because you're in very obvious denial about this doesn't mean it didn't happen and that a recurrence isn't a distinct probability (given some of the sounds already emanating from some unionist/loyalist quarters).


Rather than being demolished I think I have answere every point. Questions I have asked remain unanswered and inferences drawn

Your arse.

[LCohen]

Ireland did evolve. You might wish to consult the views on the north west part of the island on how it evolved. These democtratic views cannot be ignored in the modern era. Be clear - are you argueing that they should be?

The issue of the rights of the people of Fermanagh, Southe & West Tyrone, Newry and South Armagh have been raised elsewhere on the this thread. I merely confirm that I am open to there suggestions. 

I have never denied that there were populations movements (including protestants intimated out of my own border area). I have never denied that there will be a loyalist force that resists future change. I do and have condemed all of this. All.
 
Give a list of unanswered questions on this thread. Name those who have asked them and shame those who have not answered them.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Ireland did evolve. You wish to consult the views on the north west part of the island on how it evolved. These democtratic views caanot be ignored in the modern era. Be clear - are you argueing that they should be?

I'm not saying that Ireland did not evolve (and never have). Again, another straw man argument. I've said that the unionist/loyalist minority had no right to hold sway over the native majority (of which they were once a part), consistently, all along, and nor have they. (And do you mean the north-east?)

The issue of the rights of the people of Fermagh, Southe & West Tyrone, Newry and South Armagh have been raised elsewhere on the this thread. I merely confirm that I am open to there suggestions. 

Yes, but always on the 'right' of the unionist/loyalist faction to redefine their boundaries -- that's not democracy, it's a recipe for sectarian chaos.


I have never denied that there were populations movements (including protestants intimated out of my own border area). I have never denied that there will be a loyalist force that resists future change. I do and have condemed all of this. All.

Yes you did, 'crazed and demented' isn't exactly in agreement, not even obliquely. 

Give a list of unanswered questions on this thread. Name those who have asked them and shame those who have not answered them.

Maybe I've enough to be dealing with here.

[lynchbhoy]

No - Ireland was never rules as a single entity.

So what was the Irish Parliament then? And why were orange elements so vehemently opposed to its abolition by the Act of Union?

It was assumed that you were putting forward the thesis that Ireland had been ruled as a single entity from within (as opposed to under British/Englsh rule).

Lynchboy is directing us to the era of the High Kings. I'm not sure either of his examples could claim control over all of the island of ireland.

I checked afterwards and couldn't even find reference to diarmuid mcmorrough!
Don't know where I got that one from.

However there have been single high kings -elected and by annexing - that have presided over the individual kingdoms, so yes from earliest times ( though undocumented) until medieval to
Ed and up until Cromwell there was a singly governed Ireland.
There were pockets of broken rule  in this though.
Check it out.

Then you will have something else to dodge questions on !

I could argue that Ireland was ruled by frogs in an undocumented era. Where is your evidence of these undocumented facts??

I have not dodged questions. If you are on the look out for dodged questions look out for the ones I have asked (and yes documented!!)

You misunderstood my post.

The earliest rulers of Ireland were undocumented ( up until approx 100ad)
The rest were documented after that.
I believe FOSB have given you more evidence of singly ruled entire country.

You still run away from answering everyone on the undemocratic taking of the six counties.
But you have painted yourself into a corner here!

[LCohen]

FSOB. You point out yourself that Ireland was was politically evolved. I echo this by stating that "Ireland did evolve". You some how construe this as an accusation by myself against yourself that you have claimed Ireland did not evolve. Your thought processes on that one would be interesting.

You correctly point out that i should have stated the North East rather than the North West.

The unionist minority on the overall island did not hold sway over the majority post partition.

I don't believe anyone within Unioism is calling for a referendum or a redrawing of the border. Where are you getting that idea from?

Can you provide with a quote within which I denied there were population movements? I may have desribed the claims of the degree of population movement in the context of international comparisons were crazed and demented but surely you can see that that is not the same as saying there were not population movements at all. Its not that subtle a difference - you do see that?

Give a list of unanswered questions on this thread. Name those who have asked them and shame those who have not answered them.
Maybe I've enough to be dealing with here.

So not in any way running away from arguments that you find uncomfortable

[LCohen]

No - Ireland was never rules as a single entity.

So what was the Irish Parliament then? And why were orange elements so vehemently opposed to its abolition by the Act of Union?

It was assumed that you were putting forward the thesis that Ireland had been ruled as a single entity from within (as opposed to under British/Englsh rule).

Lynchboy is directing us to the era of the High Kings. I'm not sure either of his examples could claim control over all of the island of ireland.

I checked afterwards and couldn't even find reference to diarmuid mcmorrough!
Don't know where I got that one from.

However there have been single high kings -elected and by annexing - that have presided over the individual kingdoms, so yes from earliest times ( though undocumented) until medieval to
Ed and up until Cromwell there was a singly governed Ireland.
There were pockets of broken rule  in this though.
Check it out.

Then you will have something else to dodge questions on !

I could argue that Ireland was ruled by frogs in an undocumented era. Where is your evidence of these undocumented facts??

I have not dodged questions. If you are on the look out for dodged questions look out for the ones I have asked (and yes documented!!)

You misunderstood my post.

The earliest rulers of Ireland were undocumented ( up until approx 100ad)
The rest were documented after that.
I believe FOSB have given you more evidence of singly ruled entire country.

You still run away from answering everyone on the undemocratic taking of the six counties.
But you have painted yourself into a corner here!

Yes I did misunderstand your post. Having said that I really not certain that any of your (or FSOB's) claims of a single ruler/body having control over the entire island before English/British rule standing up to academic rigour.

Again I am not running away from any arguments.

A majority of people in the NW of the Island (at the time of partition and today) wanted to remian in the UK. Honouring the views of the mahority is the modus operandi of a democracy. I am not exactly in a corner when defending that viewpoint.

[Farrandeelin]

Yet another 'typo'. Pull out before you exceed your own bullshit LCohen.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

A majority of people in the NW of the Island (at the time of partition and today) wanted to remian in the UK. Honouring the views of the mahority is the modus operandi of a democracy. I am not exactly in a corner when defending that viewpoint.

Yes you are, you're very much in the minority, unless of course you engage in your seemingly favourite pastime of carving up territory to create majorities out of minorities (also presuming that you mean the NE of Ireland, again!). That's not democracy, that's a charter for political dystopia, which we've had in spades since the original iniquitous partition of this island.

[Eamonnca1]

The Brits seemed to think of Ireland as a single country with a distinctive identity, every bit as distinctive as Scotland or England. They governed it as a single entity right up until the Act of Union.  Even your crowd thought of it as a single entity. The Church of Ireland, the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland, all are all-Ireland institutions. When Queen Victoria visited Belfast you had the place bedecked in banners welcoming HM to "Ireland" (Northern Ireland hadn't been invented yet, there was no word of a "national" identity for Ulster, it was always a regional identity), and you had banners saying "Erin go Bragh" and what not.  Just about every sport other than soccer is governed on an all-Ireland basis.

[muppet]

I wonder if Scotland votes for independence will Rangers, Hearts and say 4 others who don't want to be independent stay under direct rule?

[Eamonnca1]

I wonder if Scotland votes for independence will Rangers, Hearts and say 4 others who don't want to be independent stay under direct rule?

The people of the ancient and indivisible kingdom of Rangers-Hearts-other-four-land will express their democratic wish to secede, and that wish must be respected in the name of democracy!!!!

[Oraisteach]

You're close, LC, but what you're talking about is de-mock-cracy, not democracy.