Author Topic: Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.  (Read 455332 times)

Milltown Row2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24865
  • It was the Ref that did it!!
    • View Profile
Re: Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.
« Reply #3060 on: March 18, 2021, 01:28:44 PM »
I'm not fully up on all the facilities available in Antrim but why have the county board not enhanced one ground up to a reasonable level in all this time that Casement has been closed? Reasonable sized stand, with standing areas right round? decent floodlights.

Are they worried that if they invest in somewhere else that Casement will be forgotten about?
Corrigan has had an upgrade with new covered seats and terracing.

It has, but this season will be the first since 2012 that there is a ground that can take supporters (bigger numbers wise) into a covered stand.

As good as the other grounds were during the closure of Casement, a covered stand during the winter NFL/NHL is a basic requirement
Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

Kickham csc

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
    • View Profile
Re: Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.
« Reply #3061 on: March 18, 2021, 04:24:39 PM »
There's something about this whole Casement redevelopment which I don't understand.

When the original 38k capacity was first proposed by the GAA, Stormont's Safety Technical Group estimated that:

"... only only around 18,000 people could safely evacuate a redeveloped Casement in west Belfast if the Andersonstown Road was closed.
Police, fire and ambulance officials also warn that in a 'worst-case' scenario just over 11,200 fans could safely exit if cars are parked on residential streets."

https://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/03/15/news/casement-park-emergency-services-report-highly-significant-say-residents-450296/




[Also this, which I can't read behind their paywall? https://www.irishnews.com/paywall/tsb/irishnews/irishnews/irishnews//news/2016/03/14/news/38-000-casement-park-could-not-be-safely-evacuated-emergency-services-say-448623/content.html ]

So if it was deemed nowhere near safe for 38k, what has changed since to make it safe for 34k?

And on what basis could Nichola Mallon now recommend that 34k go ahead?

I think I read somewhere that the GAA was going to buy some land leading out towards Stockman's Lane, so maybe that might alleviate the problem? (I don't know for certain whether they have, nor am I familiar with the area)

Anyhow, if the local residents were successful in challenging the original plan on safety grounds, could they not do so again for the new plan?

I believe there was something in the redesign of the stadium where additional exit points from the stadium were designed that directed people away from Anderstown Road. I think (completely open to challenge) that the design contained two or three exit points in the residential streets that solved this particular problem, and that that redesign resulted in the capacity going from 38k to 34k

Evil Genius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4213
    • View Profile
Re: Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.
« Reply #3062 on: March 18, 2021, 05:22:19 PM »
There's something about this whole Casement redevelopment which I don't understand.

When the original 38k capacity was first proposed by the GAA, Stormont's Safety Technical Group estimated that:

"... only only around 18,000 people could safely evacuate a redeveloped Casement in west Belfast if the Andersonstown Road was closed.
Police, fire and ambulance officials also warn that in a 'worst-case' scenario just over 11,200 fans could safely exit if cars are parked on residential streets."

https://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/03/15/news/casement-park-emergency-services-report-highly-significant-say-residents-450296/

[Also this, which I can't read behind their paywall? https://www.irishnews.com/paywall/tsb/irishnews/irishnews/irishnews//news/2016/03/14/news/38-000-casement-park-could-not-be-safely-evacuated-emergency-services-say-448623/content.html ]

So if it was deemed nowhere near safe for 38k, what has changed since to make it safe for 34k?

And on what basis could Nichola Mallon now recommend that 34k go ahead?

I think I read somewhere that the GAA was going to buy some land leading out towards Stockman's Lane, so maybe that might alleviate the problem? (I don't know for certain whether they have, nor am I familiar with the area)

Anyhow, if the local residents were successful in challenging the original plan on safety grounds, could they not do so again for the new plan?

I believe there was something in the redesign of the stadium where additional exit points from the stadium were designed that directed people away from Anderstown Road. I think (completely open to challenge) that the design contained two or three exit points in the residential streets that solved this particular problem, and that that redesign resulted in the capacity going from 38k to 34k
That might explain it (though I'm not sure how funnelling potentially thousands of fans into confined residential streets in an emergency works, either?)

Still, assuming something relatively straightforward like this will sort it, you have to wonder why the GAA wasted so much time and money fighting for the original plan right up to Judicial Review, esp since an 11% capacity reduction is hardly a huge price to pay, while 34k should be more than adequate for 90% of the games to be played there.
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

armaghniac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14952
    • View Profile
Re: Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.
« Reply #3063 on: March 18, 2021, 05:34:03 PM »
That might explain it (though I'm not sure how funnelling potentially thousands of fans into confined residential streets in an emergency works, either?)

Still, assuming something relatively straightforward like this will sort it, you have to wonder why the GAA wasted so much time and money fighting for the original plan right up to Judicial Review, esp since an 11% capacity reduction is hardly a huge price to pay, while 34k should be more than adequate for 90% of the games to be played there.

Although largely funded by the public purse, this project seems to have been run on the basis that the GAA should produce a plan and then we'll tell you what is wrong with it. For a large project of public benefit like this, you would expect the emergency authorities to be working closely with the project, but this does not seem to have happened in this case.

The revised proposal has a lot going for it, one wonders why it wasn't produced the first time. I suspect there are several parties at fault here.
The planning process in NI may not be fit for purpose. During the week you have the report on the A5 saying that they should have had a widening of the existing road. Now whether or not that is the right thing to do it should not be coming after many years of design work on a new route. Theoutline plan for Casement or the A5 should have said this what we are generally trying to do and any general objections rather than detailed ones should have been made then.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Evil Genius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4213
    • View Profile
Re: Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.
« Reply #3064 on: March 18, 2021, 11:38:03 PM »
That might explain it (though I'm not sure how funnelling potentially thousands of fans into confined residential streets in an emergency works, either?)

Still, assuming something relatively straightforward like this will sort it, you have to wonder why the GAA wasted so much time and money fighting for the original plan right up to Judicial Review, esp since an 11% capacity reduction is hardly a huge price to pay, while 34k should be more than adequate for 90% of the games to be played there.

Although largely funded by the public purse, this project seems to have been run on the basis that the GAA should produce a plan and then we'll tell you what is wrong with it. For a large project of public benefit like this, you would expect the emergency authorities to be working closely with the project, but this does not seem to have happened in this case.

The revised proposal has a lot going for it, one wonders why it wasn't produced the first time. I suspect there are several parties at fault here.
The planning process in NI may not be fit for purpose. During the week you have the report on the A5 saying that they should have had a widening of the existing road. Now whether or not that is the right thing to do it should not be coming after many years of design work on a new route. Theoutline plan for Casement or the A5 should have said this what we are generally trying to do and any general objections rather than detailed ones should have been made then.
I'm sorry, but I'm not sure that's how it works  (or should, at any rate).

When coming up with a plan, you don't just use architects, engineers and builders to design something to your specification, you also appoint Consultants to advise you on specific areas such as H&S.

Their expertise lies in being experienced in what will pass (very often they used to work in the relevant department before joining the private sector), meaning they can advise on what is workable, not just what is technically possible.  Much of that involves liaising with departmental officials along the way, in order to avoid any shocks when you finally present your proposal.

And considering how the GAA appear also to have failed eg the Public Relations test (even Antrim GAA was hardly solidly behind it, never mind the local residents), who's to say they didn't fail the Planning test, too?

As for officials just waiting to "say what was wrong with it", there was no sign of that with the submissions by the IFA and IRFU.

Meanwhile re the A5, that was always going to be political (both small "p" and large "P"), with numerous interested parties and two governments to satisfy and complex legal hurdles to overcome, all the while having a much greater budget. It was also inevitably going to have a much longer timescale, even if everything went smoothly. Meaning we shouldn't be too surprised at major delays.

Whereas once the Maze stadium was finally canned and the money divided out for the three stadia instead, the Politicians (big "P") were all either on board, or no longer interested and the money was there. Plus all told, this was amuch more modest project than the A5.

I suspect that the people behind it at the GAA, used to negotiating big projects successfully in the Republic, assumed that this one would go through equally smoothly in NI, and so may have been overconfident.
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

armaghniac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14952
    • View Profile
Re: Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.
« Reply #3065 on: March 19, 2021, 01:30:57 AM »
The GAA made a hames of Casement, some involvement from the south would probably have helped. The IRFU and IFA were developing grounds, but not really changing their character or intensity of use,  Casement had fallen in substantial disuse and the so would have been changed more by the plan.

AS for the A5, I cannot see how a planning inquiry can say after decade and a half that the the road is the wrong idea, although they are of course obliged to address  issues like the currency of the flood reports.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Tyrdub

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 228
    • View Profile
Re: Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.
« Reply #3066 on: March 19, 2021, 09:38:31 AM »
That might explain it (though I'm not sure how funnelling potentially thousands of fans into confined residential streets in an emergency works, either?)

Still, assuming something relatively straightforward like this will sort it, you have to wonder why the GAA wasted so much time and money fighting for the original plan right up to Judicial Review, esp since an 11% capacity reduction is hardly a huge price to pay, while 34k should be more than adequate for 90% of the games to be played there.

Although largely funded by the public purse, this project seems to have been run on the basis that the GAA should produce a plan and then we'll tell you what is wrong with it. For a large project of public benefit like this, you would expect the emergency authorities to be working closely with the project, but this does not seem to have happened in this case.

The revised proposal has a lot going for it, one wonders why it wasn't produced the first time. I suspect there are several parties at fault here.
The planning process in NI may not be fit for purpose. During the week you have the report on the A5 saying that they should have had a widening of the existing road. Now whether or not that is the right thing to do it should not be coming after many years of design work on a new route. Theoutline plan for Casement or the A5 should have said this what we are generally trying to do and any general objections rather than detailed ones should have been made then.

Some waste of oxygen on this subject.

what you might wnat to do is talk to Building Control in Belfast City Council, who oversee the plans, the escape routes, the amount and size of exits, their locations etc etc....they didnt have any issue whatsoever with the original plans.

armaghniac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14952
    • View Profile
Re: Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.
« Reply #3067 on: March 19, 2021, 12:46:16 PM »
Some waste of oxygen on this subject.

what you might wnat to do is talk to Building Control in Belfast City Council, who oversee the plans, the escape routes, the amount and size of exits, their locations etc etc....they didnt have any issue whatsoever with the original plans.

I am not familiar with the detail here. If these lads were happy then how was it overturned afterwards?
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Evil Genius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4213
    • View Profile
Re: Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.
« Reply #3068 on: March 19, 2021, 01:10:38 PM »
Some waste of oxygen on this subject.

what you might wnat to do is talk to Building Control in Belfast City Council, who oversee the plans, the escape routes, the amount and size of exits, their locations etc etc....they didnt have any issue whatsoever with the original plans.
Link?

Meanwhile, from The Irish News, March 2016:

HOUSEHOLDERS living near Casement Park have welcomed a report by emergency services that raises concerns over the capacity of a proposed new GAA stadium.

The Irish News yesterday revealed officials estimate that only around 18,000 people could safely evacuate a redeveloped Casement in west Belfast if the Andersonstown Road was closed.

Police, fire and ambulance officials also warn that in a 'worst-case' scenario just over 11,200 fans could safely exit if cars are parked on residential streets.

https://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/03/15/news/casement-park-emergency-services-report-highly-significant-say-residents-450296/
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Tyrdub

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 228
    • View Profile
Re: Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.
« Reply #3069 on: March 19, 2021, 01:40:52 PM »
Some waste of oxygen on this subject.

what you might wnat to do is talk to Building Control in Belfast City Council, who oversee the plans, the escape routes, the amount and size of exits, their locations etc etc....they didnt have any issue whatsoever with the original plans.

I am not familiar with the detail here. If these lads were happy then how was it overturned afterwards?

You might have to ask the authorities or the planners or someone else who has time to waste on this

Tyrdub

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 228
    • View Profile
Re: Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.
« Reply #3070 on: March 19, 2021, 01:42:38 PM »
Some waste of oxygen on this subject.

what you might wnat to do is talk to Building Control in Belfast City Council, who oversee the plans, the escape routes, the amount and size of exits, their locations etc etc....they didnt have any issue whatsoever with the original plans.
Link?

Meanwhile, from The Irish News, March 2016:

HOUSEHOLDERS living near Casement Park have welcomed a report by emergency services that raises concerns over the capacity of a proposed new GAA stadium.

The Irish News yesterday revealed officials estimate that only around 18,000 people could safely evacuate a redeveloped Casement in west Belfast if the Andersonstown Road was closed.

Police, fire and ambulance officials also warn that in a 'worst-case' scenario just over 11,200 fans could safely exit if cars are parked on residential streets.

https://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/03/15/news/casement-park-emergency-services-report-highly-significant-say-residents-450296/

why would i want to put up a link on a subject I have heard at first hand from the people who looked at it?
why do oyu keep posting up about police, fire , ambulance? I mentioned BC in BCC, how about you go do the donkey work and ask them yourself?

Evil Genius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4213
    • View Profile
Re: Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.
« Reply #3071 on: March 19, 2021, 03:44:34 PM »
Some waste of oxygen on this subject.

what you might wnat to do is talk to Building Control in Belfast City Council, who oversee the plans, the escape routes, the amount and size of exits, their locations etc etc....they didnt have any issue whatsoever with the original plans.
Link?

Meanwhile, from The Irish News, March 2016:

HOUSEHOLDERS living near Casement Park have welcomed a report by emergency services that raises concerns over the capacity of a proposed new GAA stadium.

The Irish News yesterday revealed officials estimate that only around 18,000 people could safely evacuate a redeveloped Casement in west Belfast if the Andersonstown Road was closed.

Police, fire and ambulance officials also warn that in a 'worst-case' scenario just over 11,200 fans could safely exit if cars are parked on residential streets.

https://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/03/15/news/casement-park-emergency-services-report-highly-significant-say-residents-450296/

why would i want to put up a link on a subject I have heard at first hand from the people who looked at it?
why do oyu keep posting up about police, fire , ambulance? I mentioned BC in BCC, how about you go do the donkey work and ask them yourself?
The reason I posted about police, fire, ambulance etc was because it was their objections which originally put the kibosh on a 38k Casement in 2015, subsequently confirmed by a Judicial Review.

Leading me to wonder what had changed since then to make 34k capacity acceptable.

Your bringing BC at BCC doesn't affect that query, unless you can demonstrate how BCC have somehow overcome the earlier objections.

In which case, back to you.
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"