MC DOWELL - HAS HE ANY SHAME?

[funtime frankie]

I have just watched a programme in which Michael McDowell has promoted Mick Collins as the greatest ever Irish person. Now that in itself is fair enough and out of the five candidates the Big Fella or James Connolly will get my vote.

The sheer hypocrisy displayed by McDowell is astounding. For years this guy has made a name for himself by beating his anti-republican, anti-Irish, anti-armed struggle drum and yet he has the brass neck to come on the telly and tell us how great a fella Mick Collins was. Collins got his reputation because he was wedded to violence and he had no difficulty in unleashing the same violence with a ruthlessness that would make the most hardened activists squirm. 

I thought that it was an insult to Collins' memory to have the high priest of the shoneen promote his cause. Unless Mc Dowell has had a conversation of Damascian proportions - which I doubt - then for this guy to speak so glowingly of a great IRA leader is just hypocrisy and proves that he will do anything to get his gob on the TV. 

Is it any wonder that the electorate saw through this gobshtie and kicked him out?

[Donnellys Hollow]

McDowell is a nephew of Brian MacNeill (son of Eoin) who was executed by the Free State Army during the Civil War

[Zapatista]

Connolly was a Scot.

I heard he will be looking to come on board for FG. It would explain a lot.

To be honest I think this 'Greatest Irish Person' stuff is no better than the beauty pagents we give out to the yanks about. Might aswell throw Rosanna Davidson in the mix.

McDowell is a nephew of Brian MacNeill (son of Eoin) who was executed by the Free State Army during the Civil War

I thought Eion was his Grandfather? who sent out counter orders just before the rising which left half the country without arms and in a state of confusion but I don't blame McDowell for that.

[Donnellys Hollow]

McDowell is a nephew of Brian MacNeill (son of Eoin) who was executed by the Free State Army during the Civil War

I thought Eion was his Grandfather? who sent out counter orders just before the rising which left half the country without arms and in a state of confusion but I don't blame McDowell for that.

Yep. Eoin's son Brian joined the irregulars and was shot by the Free State Army in Sligo in 1922. One of Eoin MacNeill's other sons was in the Free State Army.

In fairness to Eoin MacNeill re 1916, the IRB had basically taken over the Volunteer Executive by 1916 and he was unaware of this. The Rising itself was a complete failure and I think history proves MacNeill's decision was correct. If the British hadn't executed the leaders of the Rising and wrongly labelled it the Sinn Féin rebellion, the IPP wouldn't have been wiped out in the 1918 election and Home Rule would have followed. The people of Dublin would have lynched all the participants in 1916 if the British hadn't interned them all in Wales. The Rising had no popular support at all at the time and it was only the stupidity of Dublin Castle and Downing Street in it's aftermath, that made it a 'success'

[Zapatista]

that made it a 'success'

[Nally Stand]

I watched that show too and I must say I didn't think too much about Collins because all I could think about was how much of a west-brit, anti-republican, partitionist, waste of human DNA that Michael McDowell is. Repeated references to how Ireland "has won" her Independence are insulting and partitionist in the extreme.

Ireland's Maggie Thatcher.

[Pangurban]

This was cant and hypocrisy of the highest order, from a Man who made his name from the practice of same

[ross matt]

Yeah watched it last night and remember thinking this would be the reaction when he mentions Collins assassination of Alan Bell .... "it was ruthless but had to be done..." or words to that effect. I've always had an interest in Collins and I actually thought McDowell was more honest than alot of our current politicians but he's left himself open to being accused of hypocrisy here. Its down to the usual debate about whether the IRA violence in the 1919-21 period was justified and the that of the 70s was or was'nt. His presentation on Collins was decent but a bit crammed. The whole concept is a bit dodgy though. The individuals should be able to withstand an objective documentary rather than have celebrities selling us their hero.

[Zapatista]

Yeah watched it last night and remember thinking this would be the reaction when he mentions Collins assassination of Alan Bell .... "it was ruthless but had to be done..." or words to that effect. I've always had an interest in Collins and I actually thought McDowell was more honest than alot of our current politicians but he's left himself open to being accused of hypocrisy here. Its down to the usual debate about whether the IRA violence in the 1919-21 period was justified and the that of the 70s was or was'nt. His presentation on Collins was decent but a bit crammed. The whole concept is a bit dodgy though. The individuals should be able to withstand an objective documentary rather than have celebrities selling us their hero.

If Connolly knew that this was happening he'd rise from the dead and Rise again.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Carlsberg don't do spinnings in the grave, but if they did...

[Aoise]

I just felt anger when watching this programme.  The amount of revisionism was astounding - who the hell picked this man to represent Michael Collins?

All the talk of having achieved our Republic and all that Collins wished for made me as a Northern Nationalist nearly sick.  He has no comprehension of how insulting that is to me as an Irish person of equal standing whose people were forgotten after his bloody treaty and left to fend for themselves for all the aspirations Michael Collins had, we as a people still have them and believe it or not for us, thats what it still is an aspiration.  So for all that Collins fought for we still had to fight for oh but thats right, because we're Northern our fight for freedom is "terror", while Collin's was "inspirational".  I very nearly hit the TV off the wall.

He aslo conveniently forgot to mention that the only reason Collin's signed the treaty was because he was promised that "Northern Ireland" was a temporary entity, to be relooked at 4 years after the treaty and through the boundary commission.  McDowell should have been no-where near that programme last night but typical RTE, revise your entire history and present it in shiny fashion.  Can't wait to see James Connolly - we'll probably be told he was a closet capitalist with a penchant for grandeur!  Awful Awful stuff!!!

[magpie seanie]

I watched the programme myself and I think the criticism here is harsh in the extreme. I understand where people, especially nationalists from the 6 counties, are coming from but I don't agree with some of the criticism of McDowell. Whether people like it or not the man comes from a republican tradition and is a republican. Some will find that hard to take but as we all know there are many shades of green in Irish republicanism and I for one refuse to abandon the name "republican"to the greenest shades. Comparisons to Maggie Thatcher show how ridiculous some of the criticism is. I felt the programme was a reasonable enough effort and it was clearly explained why violence was used and was necessary.

Collins is my hero too and that's from someone whose grandfather fought against the Treaty. I firmly believe if he had lived things would have worked out differently with the 6 counties. The Civil War was a great tragedy not only in itself but in the way it killed any momentum and allowed the unionists to establish their "state".

[Zapatista]

I watched the programme myself and I think the criticism here is harsh in the extreme. I understand where people, especially nationalists from the 6 counties, are coming from but I don't agree with some of the criticism of McDowell. Whether people like it or not the man comes from a republican tradition and is a republican. Some will find that hard to take but as we all know there are many shades of green in Irish republicanism and I for one refuse to abandon the name "republican"to the greenest shades. Comparisons to Maggie Thatcher show how ridiculous some of the criticism is. I felt the programme was a reasonable enough effort and it was clearly explained why violence was used and was necessary.

Collins is my hero too and that's from someone whose grandfather fought against the Treaty. I firmly believe if he had lived things would have worked out differently with the 6 counties. The Civil War was a great tragedy not only in itself but in the way it killed any momentum and allowed the unionists to establish their "state".

I didn't see the show and have no interest in watching it.

McDowell is not a Republican and comparisons to Thatcher are accurate.
McDowell lives in a Republic and Thatcher lives under a Monarch. They are both quite happy to accept that and do no more. They have no interest in promoting it or expanding it as a political ideology. If McDowell lived under a Monarch he would defend that Monarch to the bitter end as he has no ideals in that regard. If Thatcher lived in a Republic she would do the same. They are both Right wing Nationalists and nothing more.

Collins isn't a hero of mine nor do I dislike him. He did what he did and has paid a price. There is no way of knowing what might have been had he have lived or if there had have been no civil war. The benefit of hindsight is something Collin and his enemies didn't have and to apply it to their caracter is unfair. I could argue that if Redmond had have won more support and we achieved Home Rule it would have led to a UI 100 years later but again there is no point in arguing that, unless it's just for the hell of it.

[Donnellys Hollow]

He aslo conveniently forgot to mention that the only reason Collin's signed the treaty was because he was promised that "Northern Ireland" was a temporary entity, to be relooked at 4 years after the treaty and through the boundary commission.  McDowell should have been no-where near that programme last night but typical RTE, revise your entire history and present it in shiny fashion.  Can't wait to see James Connolly - we'll probably be told he was a closet capitalist with a penchant for grandeur!  Awful Awful stuff!!!

Collins signed the treaty because he was a pragmatist and he realised the grave consequences for Ireland had the treaty been rejected. The British would have landed en masse and every flying column in Munster would have been flushed out from the hills within a fortnight.

The 6 counties were not an issue during the treaty debates. The Civil War was essentially fought over the oath of allegiance to the crown that Dev himself had managed to get rid of within a few years of coming to power in the 1930s. The belief was that the transfer of land to the Free State would be so considerable that the remaining Northern Ireland state would be too small an entity to be retained in the long-term. Had Collins not been killed, the Boundary Commission probably would have succeeded. MacNeill was not suited to driving a hard bargain and the Commission failed.

[Zapatista]

Collins signed the treaty because he was a pragmatist and he realised the grave consequences for Ireland had the treaty been rejected. The British would have landed en masse and every flying column in Munster would have been flushed out from the hills within a fortnight.

What was pragmatic about 1916 or the war of independance? What was pragmatic about the Civil war?

If Collins was a pragmatist then he didn't show it in his actions although the winners might have wrote that in his history.