Geezer - one word LEGEND

[MCMLX]

I take it you werent at the game or even watched the game on TV. Cavanagh, thats Sean from the Moy and not Peter (the Great) Canavan had got the better of McGeeney for most of the match and the entire second half. That is why big Joe took McGeeney (a legend only in Armagh and parts of Louth) off. He was a beaten docket. The scoreboard tells its own story. Armagh lost. Cavanagh, Canavan and Co won, went on to win an All Ireland. The Tyrone lads have 3 All Ireland medals. McGeeney has one. Still a great achievemnt, but not really legendary status.
When the history of that era is written it will be about Canavan, Dooher, Gooch, the O`Se`s, Mickey Harte and Jack OConnor.

[armagho9]

I take it you werent at the game or even watched the game on TV. Cavanagh, thats Sean from the Moy and not Peter (the Great) Canavan had got the better of McGeeney for most of the match and the entire second half. That is why big Joe took McGeeney (a legend only in Armagh and parts of Louth) off. He was a beaten docket. The scoreboard tells its own story. Armagh lost. Cavanagh, Canavan and Co won, went on to win an All Ireland. The Tyrone lads have 3 All Ireland medals. McGeeney has one. Still a great achievemnt, but not really legendary status.
When the history of that era is written it will be about Canavan, Dooher, Gooch, the O`Se`s, Mickey Harte and Jack OConnor.

you're right, the scoreboard does not lie.  Armagh led by two points when McGeeney went off with 5 minutes to go, it caused a massive gap in the Armagh defence which Cavanagh exploited bombing forward to set up three points for Tyrone.  Cavanagh has often said in interviews that he couldnt believe his eyes when he saw McGeeny going off (i think big Joe was the only one in Croke Park that day who understood what was going on because the 70 odd thousand left in Croke PArk hadnt a clue why he took him off), Cavanagh has often said that it gave Tyrone such a lift to see him going off and it was probably the turning point of the game.  But hey a tit like you would probably know more about McGeeney that day that the guy being marked by him.

[BennyHarp]

It says alot about the hyperbole world we live in that a 5 page thread is started annointed someone as a legend after his team gets beaten in an all ireland semi final, after going into the game as hot favourites! Seems like making a few meaningless comments praising the opposition helps to earn you legendary status these days too.

[Orangemac]

A bit rich. Look at the hyperbole flying around Marty Clarke. Fabulous player all right but you would think he is going to turn water into wine at the post match banquet the way some go on.

McGeeney is a legend in Armagh and widely respected throughout the country for his drive and professionalism for club, county and country.

It is not about ability, Roy Keane is not among the 10 most talented players at Man Utd in the last 20 years, is he not a legend?

It is not about medals, is Frank McGuigan not a legend in Tyrone, Nudie Hughes in Monaghan.

[BennyHarp]

I have alot of time for McGeeney as a player and no doubt he is a legend amongst Armagh folk, but I just find it interesting that this thread was started in the aftermath of Sunday's game!

[mckieran]

Quote from: mckieran on September 03, 2010, 02:05:18 PM
Quote
I must have been a bit thick at school, the word legend means something else to me.
McGeeney was a decent enough player, he captained Armagh to their only All Ireland, they should have won more.
As a manager he has achieved the square root of feck all. He has won nothing, has never looked like winning anything and to date his greatest fete is a semi final loss to Down. Leinster was there for the taking this year, Geezer lost to Fitzer. You don't hear any talk of Fitzpatrick as a legend. Kildare beat Antrim after a replay. Legend? Catch a grip.
Paddy Doherty is a legend. James senior. Greg Blaney. Peter Canavan is a legend of the modern game. Darragh O`Se. Legend has it that Geezer smiled once. It was probably trapped wind. Get a grip ffs.

He was far far more than just a decent player. He was an absolutely brilliant centre back on that Armagh team.
If you want to take away "Legend" status from him because of his management career so far, then how can you put Canavan & O'Se into legendary status? None of them have achieved anything yet at management level.
In terms of playing ability, McGeeney was just as good as them. His attributes were different (In fact all of these players attributes are very different!) but he was just as influential for Armagh as O'Se was for Kerry or Canavan for Tyrone.

He was nowhere near that level.

Yes, He was. While he may not have had the same amount of skill as Canavan, He was just as influential to Armagh as Canavan was to Tyrone. So you think Canavan could play the centre back role as well as McGeeney did? There isnt a hope in hell he would have. But this is what team sports are about; Different people bring different qualities to the team.

For me, McGeeney was one of the best centre backs that I have seen play the game. And I seriously doubt Armagh would have their AI title in 2002 if McGeeney was not playing.

[armaghniac]

Eugene Magee's take on things in todays Indo
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/eugene-mcgee/eugene-mcgee-mcgeeney-miracle-a-lesson-in-the-art-of-management-2326118.html


Well known former referee John Bannon made several visits to Kildare training sessions prior to last Sunday's All-Ireland semi-final to enlighten the players, presumably, about how to avoid conceding fouls.

The last time I heard of this kind of approach was back in the early 1980s when Mick O'Dwyer brought the then best referee in the land, Paddy Collins from Westmeath, down to a training session in Killarney, allegedly to show the Kerry stars the correct use of the revamped handpass. Those Kerry lads were always that bit slow in matters like that, you know!

This set me thinking about two things in particular -- the lengths to which team managers go to get players to understand the simplest of tasks, such as understanding the rules of the game, and secondly do the players of today have their common sense siphoned out of them by coaches who take total control of the players' lives.

It is important to point out that, statistically at least, Bannon's efforts bore fruit last Sunday because, while Down gave away 28 frees, Kildare only fouled 17 times or perhaps we should say Kildare players were only blown up 17 times by referee Pat McEnaney.

The Kildare goal scored brilliantly by Eamonn Callaghan should have been prevented by the referee because of the number of steps employed in the process.

Kieran McGeeney has gone further than any other manager in moulding the bodies and minds of the Kildare players and while they did not achieve their objective, there is no doubt that McGeeney had remarkable success in bringing this squad of players to the last four of the championship.

improvement

His efforts over a long period of time were an exercise in making several fairly ordinary footballers into All-Ireland standard performers and it shows that with any set of players, there can be vast improvement over time when a manager knows how to motivate young men and convince them to play better than their own intrinsic ability.

Of course, that is what the majority of county teams must achieve if they want to move up the ranks. Quite simply most counties do not have enough quality players to reach the last four in the All-Ireland on personal ability alone.

Kerry and Tyrone did have the luxury of having 15 or more players of All-Ireland standard over the last seven years, but there were many glaring examples in recent years of counties masquerading as potential champions who definitely were not the real deal because they had several players who simply could not perform at quarter-final or semi-final level.

These included Dublin, Mayo, Derry, Meath, Wexford, Monaghan, Donegal and a few others. Some of these counties constantly maintain that they are serious contenders whenever they put their heads above the parapet, but they are living in a world of make-believe because they have been shown time and again not to have enough naturally gifted players.

I suspect Kieran McGeeney soon learned that in Kildare over his first two seasons, when they lost All-Ireland quarter-finals and he set about facing reality and therefore having to improve several 'ordinary' players in order to strengthen the overall worth of the team.

He did this outstandingly well, as anybody from Kildare or elsewhere will have appreciated having observed the improvement of several players in the course of the last two summers.

I have always regarded a manager who brings a team to the top by making average players much better through preparation as being equal to, or possibly even better, than a manager who is blessed with a team of great players such as Tyrone and Kerry had recently.

I know from my former managerial experience with Offaly that there is tremendous satisfaction for a manager who gets players to improve greatly in the course of a couple of seasons. Unfortunately ordinary football followers often do not have the patience required for improving players' performances. The usual cry is: "Ah, sure that fellow will never be any good, you are wasting your time training him all year."

It is that sort of attitude that condemns many a county team to mediocrity, because of course there are never 15 or more naturally talented footballers available in most counties and only a really good manager can implement coaching measures to make ordinary players 50pc better and, thus, strengthen the team.

There are a few good examples of this sort of managerial skill such as Mickey Ned O'Sullivan with Limerick, Kevin Walsh with Sligo and Jason Ryan with Wexford. The proof of their work is that these counties performed better as a team than the individual worth of the players.

Some might say that James McCartan is in that category, but that's not quite accurate. He is obviously a very good manager, but he has a large selection of very skilful players, products of minor and U-21 success, to work with, particularly in the Down attack.

If you want to understand the difference between the two types of managers Down and Kildare are the two counties to look at.

McGeeney has had to work a lot harder to bring Kildare to the level of last Sunday's epic game than McCartan had with Down because there are more naturally talented players in Down at the moment. In that light I consider McGeeney's achievement outstanding.

His attention to detail in Kildare has been incredible and the presence of Bannon at training was just one small example of that intense approach.

This regime is of course extremely demanding on players and it may be difficult for some Kildare players to match McGeeney's requirements for another season, but I wouldn't bank on that, such is the man's all-pervasive presence in the Kildare camp.

The general principle which McGeeney has practised, that intense preparation and hard work can actually make players better and therefore more valuable to the team, is one that a lot of the managers currently being interviewed for jobs all over Ireland should take to heart -- and keep their mouth closed until they have achieved that.

[tonto1888]

McGeeney was nothing more than an average player. He was a very committed player, but was lacking in anything other than the basics of the game. Big Joe showed exactly what he thought of his legendary status when he subsituted him in the closing stages of the 2005 semi final.

That was an inspired substitution wasn't it

was thinking the same thing myself. If anything it proves how great a player mcgeeney was

[Bensars]

The last time I heard of this kind of approach was back in the early 1980s when Mick O'Dwyer brought the then best referee in the land, Paddy Collins from Westmeath, down to a training session in Killarney, allegedly to show the Kerry stars the correct use of the revamped handpass. Those Kerry lads were always that bit slow in matters like that, you know!

Mc Gee doesnt get very often does he. Every county is at it this years.

[Donnellys Hollow]

Eugene Magee's take on things in todays Indo
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/eugene-mcgee/eugene-mcgee-mcgeeney-miracle-a-lesson-in-the-art-of-management-2326118.html


Well known former referee John Bannon made several visits to Kildare training sessions prior to last Sunday's All-Ireland semi-final to enlighten the players, presumably, about how to avoid conceding fouls.

The last time I heard of this kind of approach was back in the early 1980s when Mick O'Dwyer brought the then best referee in the land, Paddy Collins from Westmeath, down to a training session in Killarney, allegedly to show the Kerry stars the correct use of the revamped handpass. Those Kerry lads were always that bit slow in matters like that, you know!

This set me thinking about two things in particular -- the lengths to which team managers go to get players to understand the simplest of tasks, such as understanding the rules of the game, and secondly do the players of today have their common sense siphoned out of them by coaches who take total control of the players' lives.

It is important to point out that, statistically at least, Bannon's efforts bore fruit last Sunday because, while Down gave away 28 frees, Kildare only fouled 17 times or perhaps we should say Kildare players were only blown up 17 times by referee Pat McEnaney.

The Kildare goal scored brilliantly by Eamonn Callaghan should have been prevented by the referee because of the number of steps employed in the process.

Kieran McGeeney has gone further than any other manager in moulding the bodies and minds of the Kildare players and while they did not achieve their objective, there is no doubt that McGeeney had remarkable success in bringing this squad of players to the last four of the championship.

improvement

His efforts over a long period of time were an exercise in making several fairly ordinary footballers into All-Ireland standard performers and it shows that with any set of players, there can be vast improvement over time when a manager knows how to motivate young men and convince them to play better than their own intrinsic ability.

Of course, that is what the majority of county teams must achieve if they want to move up the ranks. Quite simply most counties do not have enough quality players to reach the last four in the All-Ireland on personal ability alone.

Kerry and Tyrone did have the luxury of having 15 or more players of All-Ireland standard over the last seven years, but there were many glaring examples in recent years of counties masquerading as potential champions who definitely were not the real deal because they had several players who simply could not perform at quarter-final or semi-final level.

These included Dublin, Mayo, Derry, Meath, Wexford, Monaghan, Donegal and a few others. Some of these counties constantly maintain that they are serious contenders whenever they put their heads above the parapet, but they are living in a world of make-believe because they have been shown time and again not to have enough naturally gifted players.

I suspect Kieran McGeeney soon learned that in Kildare over his first two seasons, when they lost All-Ireland quarter-finals and he set about facing reality and therefore having to improve several 'ordinary' players in order to strengthen the overall worth of the team.

He did this outstandingly well, as anybody from Kildare or elsewhere will have appreciated having observed the improvement of several players in the course of the last two summers.

I have always regarded a manager who brings a team to the top by making average players much better through preparation as being equal to, or possibly even better, than a manager who is blessed with a team of great players such as Tyrone and Kerry had recently.

I know from my former managerial experience with Offaly that there is tremendous satisfaction for a manager who gets players to improve greatly in the course of a couple of seasons. Unfortunately ordinary football followers often do not have the patience required for improving players' performances. The usual cry is: "Ah, sure that fellow will never be any good, you are wasting your time training him all year."

It is that sort of attitude that condemns many a county team to mediocrity, because of course there are never 15 or more naturally talented footballers available in most counties and only a really good manager can implement coaching measures to make ordinary players 50pc better and, thus, strengthen the team.

There are a few good examples of this sort of managerial skill such as Mickey Ned O'Sullivan with Limerick, Kevin Walsh with Sligo and Jason Ryan with Wexford. The proof of their work is that these counties performed better as a team than the individual worth of the players.

Some might say that James McCartan is in that category, but that's not quite accurate. He is obviously a very good manager, but he has a large selection of very skilful players, products of minor and U-21 success, to work with, particularly in the Down attack.

If you want to understand the difference between the two types of managers Down and Kildare are the two counties to look at.

McGeeney has had to work a lot harder to bring Kildare to the level of last Sunday's epic game than McCartan had with Down because there are more naturally talented players in Down at the moment. In that light I consider McGeeney's achievement outstanding.

His attention to detail in Kildare has been incredible and the presence of Bannon at training was just one small example of that intense approach.

This regime is of course extremely demanding on players and it may be difficult for some Kildare players to match McGeeney's requirements for another season, but I wouldn't bank on that, such is the man's all-pervasive presence in the Kildare camp.

The general principle which McGeeney has practised, that intense preparation and hard work can actually make players better and therefore more valuable to the team, is one that a lot of the managers currently being interviewed for jobs all over Ireland should take to heart -- and keep their mouth closed until they have achieved that.

Typical McGee. Grumpy hoor has never had anything positive to say about Kildare. I don't know what we've ever done to offend him so much.

Who are all these 'ordinary footballers' that he keeps banging on about? He should have the balls to name names rather than coming out with this stereotypical tripe.

[JMohan]

It's a compliment Dinny

Anyway, I actually think he kind of has a point.

[Donnellys Hollow]

McGee has always been desperately negative about the Kildare footballers and that goes back to the early days of the Dwyer era. This is just the latest in a long list of articles down the years.

[agorm]

We#ll take him

[rrhf]

A question lads.  There are some men reputedly got rewarded to pay Gaelic football - for 99% of us and the rule book - an amateur sport, over the years, some say even at club level, for years now, theres been all sorts of rumours about men getting paid to manage amateur players in an amateur sport - Its very current as the managerial merry go round happens over the next few months.  If they are getting paid and are fit to therefore dedicate more time (professional) than their non paid amateur adversary who has to earn his keep before he committs to his hobby in the evenings, why would we single out the first type of guy and give him greater credit, when the second is making perhaps a greater unrewarded (financially) committent and most importantly is upholding the rules of the association. If this situation was to arise who would be held up there as an example to our youth.   Perhaps we simply dont care for the amateur guys as much as we become obsessed with the 'professional' approach.   

[artisan2010]

As a Down supporter and having had to endure the Armagh blip I dont think there is a county in the country who would not have taken McGeeney in his prime as a player.
In a comparison between wee James and McGeeney in terms of management as far as I remember the Kildare job is McGeeney first management role where as wee James has managed both Queens and a number of Club teams before stepping up to the County job.  James has brought all his experience and an excellent backroom team and transformed largely the same group of players underachieved both last year and for the last number of years.   McGeeney is still learning but his very obvious drive and integrity allow him to make up for the his inexperience.
Consistency will be the measure of both over the next few seasons.