Seeing as changing the Championship is en vogue...

[AZOffaly]

I suppose an extra round of last 16 wouldn't be too strenuous. But it should be run off quickly. None of this 3 weeks shiting about.

A break after the 3 round robin games. last 16 and quarters two weeks running. break. Semis. break. final.

And only 'avoid' the hurling on semis and final weekends.

[DB_An_Mhi]

While I like the idea of a mini-league format for the AI championship, fixture congestion may arise.

For the 2011 season, maybe the GAA could tweak things so each provincial winner got a home tie in the AI quarter finals. That would at least give an advantage and so an incentive. They could also consider starting provincial championships earlier/later depending on numbers involved, so they concluded closer together and yet still in harmony with each of the qualifier rounds.

[AZOffaly]

While I like the idea of a mini-league format for the AI championship, fixture congestion may arise.

For the 2011 season, maybe the GAA could tweak things so each provincial winner got a home tie in the AI quarter finals. That would at least give an advantage and so an incentive. They could also consider starting provincial championships earlier/later depending on numbers involved, so they concluded closer together and yet still in harmony with each of the qualifier rounds.

I like the idea of starting the league earlier, with less games, then having the provincial championships, and then these (max) 6 games. If you started these in June, you should be able to run it off in the same period as we have now, even allowing for replays in the knock out ties.

[thewobbler]

Hound, points taken. One thing I would say though is that in a 3 game series, dead rubbers don't happen too often.

Having two go through from each group would more-or-less end dead rubbers entirely. I just hate the thought of needing 48 games to take 32 teams to 16. It's overkill.

[Zulu]

I've seen this system proposed by a few people and it is teh one I'd go with.

1. Link the league and championship and bin the provincial championships.

2. Seed teams based on their league performance, therefore the top team in division 1 is seed 1 and the bottom team in division 4 is seed 32.

3. Championship played on a knockout basis - Seed 1 v seed 32, etc.

4. Start the league in May and finished by the end of June, knockout championship is played in July, August and Sept. But the advantage here for clubs is that Jan to April is largely free for (league?) club games and by the end of July on 8 teams will be left in the championship so most counties can get their championships underway in good time.

5. This also gives time to play the AI club championships, Sigerson, Fitz and the U21 football & hurling championships prior to the senior season starting, thereby lessesing the burden on the best 19-21 year olds.


Bear in mind that a league linked to the championship should ensure a very different and more competitive league than we have now and which should bring bigger crowds and all that goes with it.

[AZOffaly]

I just don't like binning the provincial championship Zulu. It's the only hope the likes of Sligo, Roscommon, Louth, Limerick from this year, and a pile of others (Laois, Westmeath) have of realistic glory, and an achievement that can be used as a tangible basis for further growth.

Westmeath and Laois both won Leinster and did feck all, but winning Leinster meant a lot to the relevant counties. Same with Offaly today. They should have kicked on, but didn't/weren't able. If they'd never won Leinster, they'd not even have had that to celebrate.

I like Wobbler's idea.

[Link]

Derry could make the Q/Fs with that draw! 

Wobbler for president

[Zulu]

The provincials are a disaster AZ and they don't provide teams with a realistic chance of winning something, if that was the case then someone other than Cork or Kerry would have won Munster in the past 15 years, someone other than Armagh or Tyrone in Ulster in the last 10. Besides, proper competitive divisions in the leagues will ensure that winning those would mean just as much to the players as winning a provincial championship does now. It would also provide the building blocks you mention to develop further success. For example Limerick won division 4 last year if they win division 3 next they'll move up another level and can gain confidence that winning a proper league means that they are genuinely a better team than those in their division.

The season can't be looked at in isolation and all aspects must be considered, i.e. clubs, U21 IC and universities as well as the senior IC season. I'm not saying wobblers system isn't decent but this one almost guarantees no dead rubber games and season that builds in intensity, transforms the leagues and brings back the knockout element to the championship.

[cornafean]

While I like the idea of a mini-league format for the AI championship, fixture congestion may arise.

For the 2011 season, maybe the GAA could tweak things so each provincial winner got a home tie in the AI quarter finals. That would at least give an advantage and so an incentive. They could also consider starting provincial championships earlier/later depending on numbers involved, so they concluded closer together and yet still in harmony with each of the qualifier rounds.

In all fairness it would be a bit of a joke to have an All Ireland Quarter Final between Down and Kerry played in the likes of Newry or Killarney. Games of this importance belong in Croke Park.

[AZOffaly]

The provincials are a disaster AZ and they don't provide teams with a realistic chance of winning something, if that was the case then someone other than Cork or Kerry would have won Munster in the past 15 years, someone other than Armagh or Tyrone in Ulster in the last 10. Besides, proper competitive divisions in the leagues will ensure that winning those would mean just as much to the players as winning a provincial championship does now. It would also provide the building blocks you mention to develop further success. For example Limerick won division 4 last year if they win division 3 next they'll move up another level and can gain confidence that winning a proper league means that they are genuinely a better team than those in their division.

The season can't be looked at in isolation and all aspects must be considered, i.e. clubs, U21 IC and universities as well as the senior IC season. I'm not saying wobblers system isn't decent but this one almost guarantees no dead rubber games and season that builds in intensity, transforms the leagues and brings back the knockout element to the championship.

Can't accept that at all Zulu. How can you say that the Provincial Championships do not give lesser counties a realistic chance (not a guarantee) of winning something?

In the last 10 years Westmeath, Laois, Sligo and Roscommon would all have disagreed with you. Teams like Antrim, Offaly, Limerick, Tipp and others have reached provincial finals. The argument that the provincials do not offer a lower target is simply not true and you'd be better off not using it, as it weakens your other points.

As far as I can see the only ones who would be in favour of abandoning the provincial championships are those who have won 'enough' of them (RECENTLY!!!) and who have bigger fish to fry.  I think those counties are in the minority the likes of Cork, Kerry, Tyrone and Dublin will only be up for so long.

I bet Kerry will be damn glad of a Munster title in 5 years time. And I bet Armagh/Donegal/Down would love an Ulster today.

[DB_An_Mhi]

While I like the idea of a mini-league format for the AI championship, fixture congestion may arise.

For the 2011 season, maybe the GAA could tweak things so each provincial winner got a home tie in the AI quarter finals. That would at least give an advantage and so an incentive. They could also consider starting provincial championships earlier/later depending on numbers involved, so they concluded closer together and yet still in harmony with each of the qualifier rounds.

In all fairness it would be a bit of a joke to have an All Ireland Quarter Final between Down and Kerry played in the likes of Newry or Killarney. Games of this importance belong in Croke Park.

Why place such importance on a QF in terms of the venue. It's not that long ago there was no such thing. Many semi-finals do not even require the opening of upper tiers at HQ. But it is only right and proper that these games are held there. However, taking your example of Kerry and Down ... Kerry as Munster Champions would be worthy of a home tie as a reward for provincial success or at least electing a venue closer to home. They would also pull a much bigger home crowd. Down as a qualifier team would be treated as such where they and their fans would have to travel / go on a tour of Ireland just as before.

[bannside]

Been advocating this type of proposal for a while. The champions league is a good model that could be adapted to suit our game. We all know that the provincial c`ships favour some counties more than others. Most years Kerry can cruise to an all Ireland QF, (end July) without breaking sweat, while many other counties are either burned up or on the verge of it!

The main argument is it could free up fixture congestion, deal with player burnout, clearly define the playing season for club players, etc.

The loss of provincial c`ships can easily be compensated by increasing the value of the secondary provincial competitions, such as Mc Kenna, Mc Grath cups etc. At the minute there is around 5 weeks minimum set aside to run these off, and who can ever remember the winners!

[Zulu]

Can't accept that at all Zulu. How can you say that the Provincial Championships do not give lesser counties a realistic chance (not a guarantee) of winning something?

No competition structure should guarantee anyone anything bar a fair shake of the stick and retaining the provincial championships ensures that this doesn't happen. You mention teams like WM, Ros and Sligo all winning provincials which is true but on the other side of that coin it also ensures Limerick, Tipp, Cavan, Antrim, Fermanagh etc. are unlikely to ever win one again as they'll have Kerry, cork, Tyrone, Down, Armagh and the like to overcome first. Ros or Sligo wouldn't have won a provincial title in God knows how long if they were in Munster and Limerick would probably have 2 or 3 if they were in Connacht. That is what the provincial championships ensure and when you throw in the haphazard, meandering nature of the competitions then it is clear they have more faults than strengths. Besides, if the leagues became more important then teams would have that to aim for so they wouldn't need the provincial titles to get some silverware and a boost to their self-worth. Ros have a far better chance of winning division 4 next year than they have of retaining their Connacht title and if sligo won division 2 next year it would be a better indication of where they stand nationally than if they won Connacht.

[AZOffaly]

Been advocating this type of proposal for a while. The champions league is a good model that could be adapted to suit our game. We all know that the provincial c`ships favour some counties more than others. Most years Kerry can cruise to an all Ireland QF, (end July) without breaking sweat, while many other counties are either burned up or on the verge of it!

The main argument is it could free up fixture congestion, deal with player burnout, clearly define the playing season for club players, etc.

The loss of provincial c`ships can easily be compensated by increasing the value of the secondary provincial competitions, such as Mc Kenna, Mc Grath cups etc. At the minute there is around 5 weeks minimum set aside to run these off, and who can ever remember the winners!

How can you easily increase the value of the secondary competitions? At the moment the provincial competitions mean something to the people in the majority of the counties in Ireland, apart from the elite few who've won a lot of them recently.

Even if you gave the league more 'importance' in terms of All Ireland standings, or raised the profile of the McKenna etc (I'd get rid of them), do you think the people in Louth would have been so upset if they lost a Division 3 final, or an O'Byrne Cup final?

What ye are saying would take generations to come to fruition, and they'd be generations where there'd be less and less interest in the majority of counties because they'd know they had no hope of any silverware from day one.

I know well that almost every county in Ireland has aspirations of winning their provincial title at the start of every year. 'If we get a good draw, and catch the dubs/Kerry/Galway/Tyrone on a bad day, you'd never know'.

Only about 10 counties in the country even dream about lifting Sam.

[AZOffaly]

Can't accept that at all Zulu. How can you say that the Provincial Championships do not give lesser counties a realistic chance (not a guarantee) of winning something?

No competition structure should guarantee anyone anything bar a fair shake of the stick and retaining the provincial championships ensures that this doesn't happen. You mention teams like WM, Ros and Sligo all winning provincials which is true but on the other side of that coin it also ensures Limerick, Tipp, Cavan, Antrim, Fermanagh etc. are unlikely to ever win one again as they'll have Kerry, cork, Tyrone, Down, Armagh and the like to overcome first. Ros or Sligo wouldn't have won a provincial title in God knows how long if they were in Munster and Limerick would probably have 2 or 3 if they were in Connacht. That is what the provincial championships ensure and when you throw in the haphazard, meandering nature of the competitions then it is clear they have more faults than strengths. Besides, if the leagues became more important then teams would have that to aim for so they wouldn't need the provincial titles to get some silverware and a boost to their self-worth. Ros have a far better chance of winning division 4 next year than they have of retaining their Connacht title and if sligo won division 2 next year it would be a better indication of where they stand nationally than if they won Connacht.

That's a different argument entirely. What you're saying there is that the provincial championships are grand in theory, but some provinces are harder to win than others.

I will bet you that the Limerick footballers believe they can win a Munster in 2011, right now. I bet you they don't believe they can win an All Ireland. I bet Tipp believe they can get to a Munster final at least.

Down, Monaghan, Antrim, Donegal and Derry would all have a chance of winning Ulster at the moment.

I don't think it's perfect, but I think the argument that is somehow inconveniences the great counties in their march to All Ireland glory is not a good enough reason for telling 2/3 of the country that you can completely forget about winning anything, ever.