The Political History of Northern Ireland

[delboy]

we'll agree to disagree Delboy because if we go by the letter of the law it is owned by the Queen who is the head of the UK state. 'Northern Ireland' doesn't own anything. It may govern it on certain laws, we can agree on that but it is owned by the UK.

Im at a loss to see how this highlights my supposed contradiction.

[Zapatista]

The political history/present/future of Northern Ireland is pretty simple in actual fact.  Its status as part of the UK won't change in our lifetimes at least, for better or worse.  It will be a while before Catholics outnumber Protestants in NI, and even after that, a substantial proportion of these will be soft unionists with a small U.  Even if eventually Nationalists somehow obtain a 50%+1 majority in a referendum, we can be sure that the hard-core loyalist population will not take this lying down, and will unleash a campaign of the most violent, thuggish and sectarian barbarism, making any nascent 32 county Republic impossible to govern and putting the lives of the Northern Catholic population in general at severe risk.  The 50.1% may triumph, but what of the 49.9% left behind?

The lesson?  A United Ireland is certainly impossible in our lifetimes and in our childrens' lifetimes.  As part of the UK, we enjoy more or less all the freedoms that we could hope for in a free society.  Pretending Northern Ireland does not exist, avoiding the use of the term, and indulging in crass rhetoric such as "a United Ireland by 2016" is a blind strategy that takes no account of political realities as they really stand.

Let's face it, the SDLP and SF are sitting up in Stormont helping to administer the rule of the United Kingdom as part of a devolved government with few real competences.  With little prospect of change on the constitutional front, surely it's about time we grew up and engaged with the real left-right, liberal-conservative, Keynsian v Monetarist politics of the age.  I am of course conscious of how much easier that is to state than to inculcate.  In conclusion, the lessons that I've learned as a young GAA-playing man from the Catholic community having studied and worked abroad lead me to the conclusion that when John Hume once spoke of entering a post-Nationalist era, people like myself back then should not have mocked him so.

Regardless of rhetoric (btw your example isn't rhetoric) and made in the moment quotes the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Much of what we now debate as irish political history is being written as we speak it but not quoted accuratly but deliberatly mis interpreted in order to gain political advantage of today regardless to the cost of the historical record. The documented history of the north i read about in the daily papers and hear about in the news is the record. It is a very different record from what i lived and live. Cowen and Brown are not spokespersons for the people of the north yet they create the official history as did their predessors and as will there successors. That is the failure of history and it is being repeated again.

When Hume spoke of what he did i was already post -nationalist. the problem with what said Hume was that the post  Nationalism he talked about was new unionism.

[lynchbhoy]

My point is you refer to England, Scotland and Wales as the UK mainland, so how can you stand on Rathlin Island, which whether we like it or not is under the jurisdiction of the UK and talkabout the north of Ireland (Northern Ireland) being the mainland, that totally contradicts your point - that's the issue

No it doesn't rathlin is owned and under the jurisdication of northern ireland therefore the mainland is Northern Ireland.
Northern ireland is under the jurisdication of the UK the largest peice of which is to the right of us, that is the United Kingdom mainland.
The UK is part of the jurisdication of the EU the largest peice of which is to the right of them and is known as the european mainland.

Wheres the problem, where is the contradiction  Under your example the boat would have to head for France FFS.

Just because you boys tie yourselves up in all sorts of verbal knots just to deny the existence of a place doesn't mean everyone else has to.

the double standards in action !!
when its in reference to island of britain thats fine
but geographically there is only one 'mainland' and that is europe.
there is no 'mainland' Ireland or britain because they are islands !

where is this northern ireland 'mainland' by the way !!


as for what the english politicians said - well google this yourself, you wont believe anything I put up !

by ignoring historical precedent and what has been said/promised in the past  - you show your closed mindedness !
your grasp on economics aint up to much either ! Mine does alright most days !!

[delboy]

My point is you refer to England, Scotland and Wales as the UK mainland, so how can you stand on Rathlin Island, which whether we like it or not is under the jurisdiction of the UK and talkabout the north of Ireland (Northern Ireland) being the mainland, that totally contradicts your point - that's the issue

No it doesn't rathlin is owned and under the jurisdication of northern ireland therefore the mainland is Northern Ireland.
Northern ireland is under the jurisdication of the UK the largest peice of which is to the right of us, that is the United Kingdom mainland.
The UK is part of the jurisdication of the EU the largest peice of which is to the right of them and is known as the european mainland.

Wheres the problem, where is the contradiction  Under your example the boat would have to head for France FFS.

Just because you boys tie yourselves up in all sorts of verbal knots just to deny the existence of a place doesn't mean everyone else has to.

the double standards in action !!
when its in reference to island of britain thats fine
but geographically there is only one 'mainland' and that is europe.
there is no 'mainland' Ireland or britain because they are islands !

where is this northern ireland 'mainland' by the way !!


as for what the english politicians said - well google this yourself, you wont believe anything I put up !

by ignoring historical precedent and what has been said/promised in the past  - you show your closed mindedness !
your grasp on economics aint up to much either ! Mine does alright most days !!

So only something that is a continent or larger is a mainland, if thats the paradigm you have to use merely to deny the existence of northern ireland good for you.

The northern ireland mainland that would be the chunk of land you would see nearest to you if you were sitting on rathlin, do try to keep up.

Why should i do the work to verify claims that you make, you made them you back them up, a simple link to a reputable website with said remarks will suffice.

What historical precedent have i ignored, i can't be expected to know the convoluted ramblings of your brain box, you'll have to let me in on the secret.

Despite the the evidence of the entirely pathetic peace dividend you still delude yourself that the americans, europeans and UK are going to bank roll your UI, whatever makes you happy, i prefer to live in the real world. Also praising your own economic accumen is a bit naff, self praise is no praise.

BTW any chance of you backing up your other claim and  showing me where i've been bigotted 

[lynchbhoy]

No it doesn't rathlin is owned and under the jurisdication of northern ireland therefore the mainland is Northern Ireland.
Northern ireland is under the jurisdication of the UK the largest peice of which is to the right of us, that is the United Kingdom mainland.
The UK is part of the jurisdication of the EU the largest peice of which is to the right of them and is known as the european mainland.

Wheres the problem, where is the contradiction  Under your example the boat would have to head for France FFS.

Just because you boys tie yourselves up in all sorts of verbal knots just to deny the existence of a place doesn't mean everyone else has to.

the double standards in action !!
when its in reference to island of britain thats fine
but geographically there is only one 'mainland' and that is europe.
there is no 'mainland' Ireland or britain because they are islands !

where is this northern ireland 'mainland' by the way !!


as for what the english politicians said - well google this yourself, you wont believe anything I put up !

by ignoring historical precedent and what has been said/promised in the past  - you show your closed mindedness !
your grasp on economics aint up to much either ! Mine does alright most days !!
[/quote]

So only something that is a continent or larger is a mainland, if thats the paradigm you have to use merely to deny the existence of northern ireland good for you.

The northern ireland mainland that would be the chunk of land you would see nearest to you if you were sitting on rathlin, do try to keep up.

Why should i do the work to verify claims that you make, you made them you back them up, a simple link to a reputable website with said remarks will suffice.

What historical precedent have i ignored, i can't be expected to know the convoluted ramblings of your brain box, you'll have to let me in on the secret.

Despite the the evidence of the entirely pathetic peace dividend you still delude yourself that the americans, europeans and UK are going to bank roll your UI, whatever makes you happy, i prefer to live in the real world. Also praising your own economic accumen is a bit naff, self praise is no praise.

BTW any chance of you backing up your other claim and  showing me where i've been bigotted 
[/quote]
a 'mainland' in that context is an ENTIRE island - get over your bigotry self !!

go google yourself, there are certain things you will hear in news over your lifetime - eg tiger woods has had an affair - where did I hear that (ok not from woods himself) but in the media- papers and tv etc -  I know if I googled it , I would find something at some stage.
so go check it out yourself !
A source that is not open to you is Irish minister of finance Brian lenihan, who said the same thing to me a few months ago after talking to british politicians ! He and I were both in agreement that we didnt want you (citizens of the north of Ireland) , certainly not right now - though that kind of cuts against both our 'republican-esque' roots !!

for all the 'paradigms' (read this to mean you cannot win a debate in plain english so must resort to whimsy and daft jargon) you talk about, you are obviously not well enough up on the things you try to discuss in order to refutre or even now about them !

check up about american funding of places after wars etc...
google might work for you, if you have the head out of the sand long enough !!

[Ulick]

Even if eventually Nationalists somehow obtain a 50%+1 majority in a referendum, we can be sure that the hard-core loyalist population will not take this lying down, and will unleash a campaign of the most violent, thuggish and sectarian barbarism, making any nascent 32 county Republic impossible to govern and putting the lives of the Northern Catholic population in general at severe risk. 

+1

-1

[Zapatista]

Even if eventually Nationalists somehow obtain a 50%+1 majority in a referendum, we can be sure that the hard-core loyalist population will not take this lying down, and will unleash a campaign of the most violent, thuggish and sectarian barbarism, making any nascent 32 county Republic impossible to govern and putting the lives of the Northern Catholic population in general at severe risk. 

+1

-1

-2

Why? What would be the point? Surely a UI would have to accomodate their concerns? Rightly or wrongly you can stick a UI up your arse if you think it would be established along the lines of the current failed state were one section ruled the other section.

[Olaf]

for all the 'paradigms' (read this to mean you cannot win a debate in plain english so must resort to whimsy and daft jargon)

[delboy]

a 'mainland' in that context is an ENTIRE island - get over your bigotry self !!

I don't even know what thats supposed to mean but thats your supposed justification for calling me a bigot 

go google yourself, there are certain things you will hear in news over your lifetime - eg tiger woods has had an affair - where did I hear that (ok not from woods himself) but in the media- papers and tv etc -  I know if I googled it , I would find something at some stage.
so go check it out yourself !
A source that is not open to you is Irish minister of finance Brian lenihan, who said the same thing to me a few months ago after talking to british politicians ! He and I were both in agreement that we didnt want you (citizens of the north of Ireland) , certainly not right now - though that kind of cuts against both our 'republican-esque' roots !!

I refer you back to my previous post, you make a claim you back it up with credible sources otherwise its just a lot of hot air, to expect the person you are debating with to chase up your souces for you is laughable. Yeah lets throw all the conventions of debating out of the window so that Lynchboy can go on making all sorts of unsubstantiated claims.

for all the 'paradigms' (read this to mean you cannot win a debate in plain english so must resort to whimsy and daft jargon) you talk about, you are obviously not well enough up on the things you try to discuss in order to refutre or even now about them !

I think its you that is flying in the face of conventions, surely the above is a piss take, are you really suggesting I have lost the debate because i have used the word paradigm, which in your eyes is jargon despite it being neither specialised/technical or vague. Im not going to apologise for using a word in a perfectable good way to illisustrate a point, a paradigm is a mindset that affects how a group/community view a situation or reality, by its definition is also suggests that others may not choose to share that mindset or view of situation or reality.

check up about american funding of places after wars etc...
google might work for you, if you have the head out of the sand long enough !!

I refer you back to the other post again you make a claim back it up, for whats its worth the examples you gave are of countries the yanks were at war with (germany, Japan, Vietnam, Grenada), i know private american individuals donated money to the IRA etc but im not sure that could be regarded as a declaration of war. You claim i have my head in the sand but im pretty sure i know where yours is

[Tony Baloney]

No doubt the village was Moneyslane....

The flag of old South africa would have been up to commerate those 'brave gunrunners' who supplied the weapons to the chosen race here. A lot of loyalist guns came in from there, suppose it's a nod to them

Indeed it is. Just passed thru on the way to Castlewellan and it is sporting all the favourites - the old SA flag, Israeli flag plus the usual suspects.

On the way back I noticed that they, bizarrely, have a Gibraltar fleg up too. Strange wee place.

[lynchbhoy]

a 'mainland' in that context is an ENTIRE island - get over your bigotry self !!

I don't even know what thats supposed to mean but thats your supposed justification for calling me a bigot 

go google yourself, there are certain things you will hear in news over your lifetime - eg tiger woods has had an affair - where did I hear that (ok not from woods himself) but in the media- papers and tv etc -  I know if I googled it , I would find something at some stage.
so go check it out yourself !
A source that is not open to you is Irish minister of finance Brian lenihan, who said the same thing to me a few months ago after talking to british politicians ! He and I were both in agreement that we didnt want you (citizens of the north of Ireland) , certainly not right now - though that kind of cuts against both our 'republican-esque' roots !!

I refer you back to my previous post, you make a claim you back it up with credible sources otherwise its just a lot of hot air, to expect the person you are debating with to chase up your souces for you is laughable. Yeah lets throw all the conventions of debating out of the window so that Lynchboy can go on making all sorts of unsubstantiated claims.

for all the 'paradigms' (read this to mean you cannot win a debate in plain english so must resort to whimsy and daft jargon) you talk about, you are obviously not well enough up on the things you try to discuss in order to refutre or even now about them !

I think its you that is flying in the face of conventions, surely the above is a piss take, are you really suggesting I have lost the debate because i have used the word paradigm, which in your eyes is jargon despite it being neither specialised/technical or vague. Im not going to apologise for using a word in a perfectable good way to illisustrate a point, a paradigm is a mindset that affects how a group/community view a situation or reality, by its definition is also suggests that others may not choose to share that mindset or view of situation or reality.

check up about american funding of places after wars etc...
google might work for you, if you have the head out of the sand long enough !!

I refer you back to the other post again you make a claim back it up, for whats its worth the examples you gave are of countries the yanks were at war with (germany, Japan, Vietnam, Grenada), i know private american individuals donated money to the IRA etc but im not sure that could be regarded as a declaration of war. You claim i have my head in the sand but im pretty sure i know where yours is

so you accept that you are incorrect regarding yur usage of 'mainland' then !

why dont you ask Canalman (on the other thread -you started) to back up where he gets his 'notion' regarding what cameron said...I am pretty sure it was reported in some thread on here also around then...

well you take your head out of the sane only to insert it up yer posterior- not an iota of understanding for previous historical and political let alone financial precedent do you have !
it will hit and hurt you far harder when the time comes I 'd say !

[Banana Man]

Lynchboy I wouldn't bother with the man, his mainland theory is proven wrong, say no more, do what i do and agree to disagree, you'll never change his paradigm 

[delboy]

Lynchboy I wouldn't bother with the man, his mainland theory is proven wrong, say no more, do what i do and agree to disagree, you'll never change his paradigm 

What passes for proof around here is pretty tenuous it would seem.

[Banana Man]

Lynchboy I wouldn't bother with the man, his mainland theory is proven wrong, say no more, do what i do and agree to disagree, you'll never change his paradigm 


What passes for proof around here is pretty tenuous it would seem. 

Well it worked for Widgery.....

[fitzroyalty]

No doubt the village was Moneyslane....

The flag of old South africa would have been up to commerate those 'brave gunrunners' who supplied the weapons to the chosen race here. A lot of loyalist guns came in from there, suppose it's a nod to them

Indeed it is. Just passed thru on the way to Castlewellan and it is sporting all the favourites - the old SA flag, Israeli flag plus the usual suspects.

On the way back I noticed that they, bizarrely, have a Gibraltar fleg up too. Strange wee place.

How on earth does the OO intend on marketing this shite as a 'cultural' event and a 'tourist attraction' when it has the likes of Israeli flags and the old SA flag flying! 
The ignorance and utter stupidity within Loyalism knows no bounds!