Author Topic: The SDLP  (Read 54578 times)

marty34

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1242
    • View Profile
Re: The SDLP
« Reply #840 on: November 20, 2020, 11:43:39 PM »
How would you propose that a united Ireland will be sold to unionists? Because if there's no buy in to a degree from one side we know from history what is likely to happen.  I aspire to a united Ireland but I want to see a vision clearly articulated and sold to the people.  I don't see that from SF or the SDLP at the minute. In fact, if you ask a politician to give a case for it, they tend to stumble.  I don't want to see SF lead or take control of a future looking united Ireland agenda.  The case needs to be built by and involve a much broader pool of stakeholders, opinion formers etc (call it civic nationalism or whatever).  There has to be some buy in from people from a unionist background or leaning. SF are toxic to that electorate and on their own won't deliver anything peaceful or lasting.

There will be no UNITED Ireland anytime soon. What I mean is even if we see it physically we will not have a happy or peaceful society. Unionists are not ready for it, SF are the wrong party to convince them. We need a different party to bridge the gap. I don't know how we get around that

And when will unionists be ready for it then?

Unionists will never be ready for it?

How you reckon we deal with that

Ceist mhaith -but you say SF are not the ones to move it forward.

It's your go - who, in your opinion, are?

marty34

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1242
    • View Profile
Re: The SDLP
« Reply #841 on: November 20, 2020, 11:47:25 PM »
How would you propose that a united Ireland will be sold to unionists? Because if there's no buy in to a degree from one side we know from history what is likely to happen.  I aspire to a united Ireland but I want to see a vision clearly articulated and sold to the people.  I don't see that from SF or the SDLP at the minute. In fact, if you ask a politician to give a case for it, they tend to stumble.  I don't want to see SF lead or take control of a future looking united Ireland agenda.  The case needs to be built by and involve a much broader pool of stakeholders, opinion formers etc (call it civic nationalism or whatever).  There has to be some buy in from people from a unionist background or leaning. SF are toxic to that electorate and on their own won't deliver anything peaceful or lasting.

There will be no UNITED Ireland anytime soon. What I mean is even if we see it physically we will not have a happy or peaceful society. Unionists are not ready for it, SF are the wrong party to convince them. We need a different party to bridge the gap. I don't know how we get around that

And when will unionists be ready for it then?

Unionists will never be ready for it?

I state there will be no time when unionists will be ready for it.

Anybody who thinks that unionists will suddenly change overnight are very naive and completely out of touch with the political situation in the six counties.

Fear Bun Na Sceilpe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1556
    • View Profile
Re: The SDLP
« Reply #842 on: November 20, 2020, 11:48:08 PM »
How would you propose that a united Ireland will be sold to unionists? Because if there's no buy in to a degree from one side we know from history what is likely to happen.  I aspire to a united Ireland but I want to see a vision clearly articulated and sold to the people.  I don't see that from SF or the SDLP at the minute. In fact, if you ask a politician to give a case for it, they tend to stumble.  I don't want to see SF lead or take control of a future looking united Ireland agenda.  The case needs to be built by and involve a much broader pool of stakeholders, opinion formers etc (call it civic nationalism or whatever).  There has to be some buy in from people from a unionist background or leaning. SF are toxic to that electorate and on their own won't deliver anything peaceful or lasting.

There will be no UNITED Ireland anytime soon. What I mean is even if we see it physically we will not have a happy or peaceful society. Unionists are not ready for it, SF are the wrong party to convince them. We need a different party to bridge the gap. I don't know how we get around that

And when will unionists be ready for it then?

Unionists will never be ready for it?

How you reckon we deal with that

Ceist mhaith -but you say SF are not the ones to move it forward.

It's your go - who, in your opinion, are?

I think a nationalist party with less baggage in Unionists eyes. In the end couid it be one of the parties in the Republic with a change of approach?

marty34

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1242
    • View Profile
Re: The SDLP
« Reply #843 on: November 21, 2020, 12:08:09 AM »
How would you propose that a united Ireland will be sold to unionists? Because if there's no buy in to a degree from one side we know from history what is likely to happen.  I aspire to a united Ireland but I want to see a vision clearly articulated and sold to the people.  I don't see that from SF or the SDLP at the minute. In fact, if you ask a politician to give a case for it, they tend to stumble.  I don't want to see SF lead or take control of a future looking united Ireland agenda.  The case needs to be built by and involve a much broader pool of stakeholders, opinion formers etc (call it civic nationalism or whatever).  There has to be some buy in from people from a unionist background or leaning. SF are toxic to that electorate and on their own won't deliver anything peaceful or lasting.

There will be no UNITED Ireland anytime soon. What I mean is even if we see it physically we will not have a happy or peaceful society. Unionists are not ready for it, SF are the wrong party to convince them. We need a different party to bridge the gap. I don't know how we get around that

And when will unionists be ready for it then?

Unionists will never be ready for it?

How you reckon we deal with that

Ceist mhaith -but you say SF are not the ones to move it forward.

It's your go - who, in your opinion, are?

I think a nationalist party with less baggage in Unionists eyes. In the end couid it be one of the parties in the Republic with a change of approach?

Unionists will never change - if you think that, you've very naive.

Look at what was happening in the shipyards 100 years ago and look at things nowadays....then ask yourself will they change overnight?  I think they are getting worse.

Unionists treat the Alliance party with distain but you think that some new nationalist party will suddenly change their mind re: the unification of Ireland?

As I say - completely out of touch.

Dougal Maguire

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1836
    • View Profile
Re: The SDLP
« Reply #844 on: November 21, 2020, 08:40:33 AM »
I havenít been following this discussion but as regards the last couple of comments the Alliance Partyís support is growing and also thereís a considerable number of people from a unionist persuasion who donít vote at all which would suggest theyíre disillusioned by the antics of their political leaders and could possibly be persuaded of the merits of a UI. 
Careful now

LCohen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1646
    • View Profile
Re: The SDLP
« Reply #845 on: November 21, 2020, 09:06:30 AM »
Read that SF ďeconomicĒ document.

I was accused of second guessing itís content. Wouldnít have been difficult. He a re-presentation of a greatest hits of earlier documents. An environmental twist thrown in.

I was correct about the pensions. This runs to the heart of the fraud in this document. Itís is based upon selective quoting from earlier research. Itís is concluded that Scottish citizens keep their accrued UK pension rights and Edinburgh foot the bill. The first bit of that suits the SF narrative but the second doesnít. So the first but finds itís way into the document but the second doesnít.

But there are other issues. No doubt the reduced economic activity in border areas but can we jump to the conclusion that that is because of the border. Were these areas poorer that other areas before the border? Are there historic issues in many of these areas due to land quality, distance from major/historic conurbations, road and infrastructure?

They reference benefits of local decision making. Doesnít specify how these play out but surely this is about the form of devolution rather than where power is devolved from?

Where is the analysis of how much of NIís historic economic woes are related to The Troubles and the inhibition it places on investment?

The troubles and impact on investment

The references to Hubner and Fitzgerald are again selective.

There are references to the impact of the various forms of Brexit on East-west trade between GB and NI but where is the analysis of the east-west trade between RoI and GB?

On the green agenda itís is completely unclear what the advantage of UI is on delivering a green agenda. What element of the competition for private sector investment is hampered by the border? There already is a single electricity market and NI gets additional financial support to that sector that are not included in the subvention stats.

Itís not an honest document

Angelo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3067
    • View Profile
Re: The SDLP
« Reply #846 on: November 21, 2020, 10:28:14 AM »
Read that SF ďeconomicĒ document.

I was accused of second guessing itís content. Wouldnít have been difficult. He a re-presentation of a greatest hits of earlier documents. An environmental twist thrown in.

I was correct about the pensions. This runs to the heart of the fraud in this document. Itís is based upon selective quoting from earlier research. Itís is concluded that Scottish citizens keep their accrued UK pension rights and Edinburgh foot the bill. The first bit of that suits the SF narrative but the second doesnít. So the first but finds itís way into the document but the second doesnít.

But there are other issues. No doubt the reduced economic activity in border areas but can we jump to the conclusion that that is because of the border. Were these areas poorer that other areas before the border? Are there historic issues in many of these areas due to land quality, distance from major/historic conurbations, road and infrastructure?

They reference benefits of local decision making. Doesnít specify how these play out but surely this is about the form of devolution rather than where power is devolved from?

Where is the analysis of how much of NIís historic economic woes are related to The Troubles and the inhibition it places on investment?

The troubles and impact on investment

The references to Hubner and Fitzgerald are again selective.

There are references to the impact of the various forms of Brexit on East-west trade between GB and NI but where is the analysis of the east-west trade between RoI and GB?

On the green agenda itís is completely unclear what the advantage of UI is on delivering a green agenda. What element of the competition for private sector investment is hampered by the border? There already is a single electricity market and NI gets additional financial support to that sector that are not included in the subvention stats.

Itís not an honest document

You're not an honest poster.

Are you still persisting with your "I'm not a stoop" facade?

marty34

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1242
    • View Profile
Re: The SDLP
« Reply #847 on: November 21, 2020, 10:32:07 AM »
I havenít been following this discussion but as regards the last couple of comments the Alliance Partyís support is growing and also thereís a considerable number of people from a unionist persuasion who donít vote at all which would suggest theyíre disillusioned by the antics of their political leaders and could possibly be persuaded of the merits of a UI.

All well and good Dougal but how do we find out?

Test the water by having a border poll!

Unfortunately the main 'nationalist' parties i.e. SDLP, FF/FG are all stating that now is not the right time, 2021 will not be the right time and 2025 will be not the right time.

Once again, I ask these parties, when is the right time?

LCohen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1646
    • View Profile
Re: The SDLP
« Reply #848 on: November 21, 2020, 11:29:31 AM »
Read that SF ďeconomicĒ document.

I was accused of second guessing itís content. Wouldnít have been difficult. He a re-presentation of a greatest hits of earlier documents. An environmental twist thrown in.

I was correct about the pensions. This runs to the heart of the fraud in this document. Itís is based upon selective quoting from earlier research. Itís is concluded that Scottish citizens keep their accrued UK pension rights and Edinburgh foot the bill. The first bit of that suits the SF narrative but the second doesnít. So the first but finds itís way into the document but the second doesnít.

But there are other issues. No doubt the reduced economic activity in border areas but can we jump to the conclusion that that is because of the border. Were these areas poorer that other areas before the border? Are there historic issues in many of these areas due to land quality, distance from major/historic conurbations, road and infrastructure?

They reference benefits of local decision making. Doesnít specify how these play out but surely this is about the form of devolution rather than where power is devolved from?

Where is the analysis of how much of NIís historic economic woes are related to The Troubles and the inhibition it places on investment?

The troubles and impact on investment

The references to Hubner and Fitzgerald are again selective.

There are references to the impact of the various forms of Brexit on East-west trade between GB and NI but where is the analysis of the east-west trade between RoI and GB?

On the green agenda itís is completely unclear what the advantage of UI is on delivering a green agenda. What element of the competition for private sector investment is hampered by the border? There already is a single electricity market and NI gets additional financial support to that sector that are not included in the subvention stats.

Itís not an honest document

You're not an honest poster.

Are you still persisting with your "I'm not a stoop" facade?

I have shown you the lie on pensions. What are your thoughts? Do you think it was good of SF to spin that lie or bad to spin that lie?

Rossfan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17098
  • Ballaghaderreen CO ROSCOMMON
    • View Profile
    • Roscommon County Board official website
Re: The SDLP
« Reply #849 on: November 21, 2020, 11:34:48 AM »
I havenít been following this discussion but as regards the last couple of comments the Alliance Partyís support is growing and also thereís a considerable number of people from a unionist persuasion who donít vote at all which would suggest theyíre disillusioned by the antics of their political leaders and could possibly be persuaded of the merits of a UI.

All well and good Dougal but how do we find out?

Test the water by having a border poll!

Unfortunately the main 'nationalist' parties i.e. SDLP, FF/FG are all stating that now is not the right time, 2021 will not be the right time and 2025 will be not the right time.

Once again, I ask these parties, when is the right time?
As you should know it's up to the Brit Secretary of State to call a "border poll" per the GFA.
Still Connacht Champions

marty34

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1242
    • View Profile
Re: The SDLP
« Reply #850 on: November 21, 2020, 11:57:57 AM »
I havenít been following this discussion but as regards the last couple of comments the Alliance Partyís support is growing and also thereís a considerable number of people from a unionist persuasion who donít vote at all which would suggest theyíre disillusioned by the antics of their political leaders and could possibly be persuaded of the merits of a UI.

All well and good Dougal but how do we find out?

Test the water by having a border poll!

Unfortunately the main 'nationalist' parties i.e. SDLP, FF/FG are all stating that now is not the right time, 2021 will not be the right time and 2025 will be not the right time.

Once again, I ask these parties, when is the right time?
As you should know it's up to the Brit Secretary of State to call a "border poll" per the GFA.

OMG...and parties can't agitate for it?

So we just wait and let the Sos decide when it's going to be.

I think you should look at Scotland and see how they are agitating for Indy2.

Not sure what your parties, Fine Fail, are doing about it - ohh wait the dept. in the 26 that deals with the 6 counties is the Dept. of Foreign Affairs...ffs.

Should you and Flanagan and the west brits today not be looking to built a statue to the people who murdered the people in Croke Park?


Rossfan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17098
  • Ballaghaderreen CO ROSCOMMON
    • View Profile
    • Roscommon County Board official website
Re: The SDLP
« Reply #851 on: November 21, 2020, 03:10:37 PM »
Good man. Plenty of insults.
Lads like you will ensure the 26 Co electorate won't vote for a UI.
Still Connacht Champions

smelmoth

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1449
    • View Profile
Re: The SDLP
« Reply #852 on: November 21, 2020, 04:01:29 PM »
Good man. Plenty of insults.
Lads like you will ensure the 26 Co electorate won't vote for a UI.

A big question as to whether Sinn Fein have the discipline to run a referendum campaign.

Once you get to see ďWest BritĒ or ďquislingĒ in the southern debate you are kissing goodbye to any chance of convincing moderates north or south.

Also there will have to be a serious economic debate. The details of which will be poured over. Sinn Fein have already shown the that they will use flimsy data. That is going to get ripped apart in a proper debate. They would have to up their game massively

Angelo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3067
    • View Profile
Re: The SDLP
« Reply #853 on: November 21, 2020, 04:17:54 PM »
Read that SF ďeconomicĒ document.

I was accused of second guessing itís content. Wouldnít have been difficult. He a re-presentation of a greatest hits of earlier documents. An environmental twist thrown in.

I was correct about the pensions. This runs to the heart of the fraud in this document. Itís is based upon selective quoting from earlier research. Itís is concluded that Scottish citizens keep their accrued UK pension rights and Edinburgh foot the bill. The first bit of that suits the SF narrative but the second doesnít. So the first but finds itís way into the document but the second doesnít.

But there are other issues. No doubt the reduced economic activity in border areas but can we jump to the conclusion that that is because of the border. Were these areas poorer that other areas before the border? Are there historic issues in many of these areas due to land quality, distance from major/historic conurbations, road and infrastructure?

They reference benefits of local decision making. Doesnít specify how these play out but surely this is about the form of devolution rather than where power is devolved from?

Where is the analysis of how much of NIís historic economic woes are related to The Troubles and the inhibition it places on investment?

The troubles and impact on investment

The references to Hubner and Fitzgerald are again selective.

There are references to the impact of the various forms of Brexit on East-west trade between GB and NI but where is the analysis of the east-west trade between RoI and GB?

On the green agenda itís is completely unclear what the advantage of UI is on delivering a green agenda. What element of the competition for private sector investment is hampered by the border? There already is a single electricity market and NI gets additional financial support to that sector that are not included in the subvention stats.

Itís not an honest document

You're not an honest poster.

Are you still persisting with your "I'm not a stoop" facade?

I have shown you the lie on pensions. What are your thoughts? Do you think it was good of SF to spin that lie or bad to spin that lie?

I'm afraid you've done no such thing. The one lie you have showed us is your "I'm not a stoop" facade.

Angelo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3067
    • View Profile
Re: The SDLP
« Reply #854 on: November 21, 2020, 04:19:35 PM »
Good man. Plenty of insults.
Lads like you will ensure the 26 Co electorate won't vote for a UI.

It's actually lads like you will do your utmost to keep your rotten corrupt state in the same hands that have ravaged state services and resources to the private sector over the past 50 years.