Author Topic: The SDLP  (Read 54762 times)

LCohen

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Re: The SDLP
« Reply #825 on: November 20, 2020, 03:43:40 PM »
It's a very sad state of affairs that the majority here still vote in the 2 main parties along green and orange lines. It's not on the basis of their competence anyway!

Ugh, that's one line that grates with me. I like many others vote on the 'green' side of that equation, but that's not because it's a 'versus orange' choice. I vote for the green shade because I firmly believe that people will be better served in a reunited Ireland and I'll vote for whatever party I feel best represents those views/is most pro-active on it. It's very tiresome hearing people who no doubt view themselves as some sort of "progressives" implying that voting on constitutional lines is somehow backward/sectarian/"a very sad state of affairs". People have strong, sincerely held and legitimate views on both sides of the constitutional question (after all, it's the one issue that has the potential to most impact not just people's very identity, but the entire social and economic future of the country) and voting in a what that best represents those views is entirely natural, legitimate, understandable and to be expected.

Yes, the constitutional issue is of huge importance to the majority.  I'm a nationalist and believe in a united Ireland but I won't vote for a party purely on the constitutional issue if I believe they are incompetent and incapable of governing due to poor judgement and decision making, work ethic or incapable of building decent working relations with the other side for the betterment of all here. I believe neither SF or the DUP tick any of those boxes.  I wish they did, but time and time again they've shown themselves to have fallen way short of what's needed.

If you don't vote for a party because you don't think it is sufficiently competent, makes poor decisions, has a poor work ethic or can't work well with "the other side", then thats well and good (out of interest, who do you vote for then?) but my issue wasn't with that viewpoint. It was with your suggestion that it is "a very sad state of affairs" that the majority here vote along orange and green lines. As I say, there's nothing wrong with people voting for whatever party best represents their views on what is unquestionably the single biggest political question of our time.

As a matter of interest how much worse would the life of you and the people around you have to be to make a United Ireland not worth it?

That's the way you look at it. I'd sooner ask how worse do things have to get before you will start to realise partition isn't worth it, or more to the point, before you realise that a normally functioning six county state is just the stuff of fantasy? This state was artificially sculpted in order to create a supremacist majority, so it will never be a properly functioning entity. You ask how much worse it has to get - the implication being that voting orange/green keeps making things worse and that we if we all just stopped doing so, sure we'd be laughing and the north could flourish. That's just an airy fairy denial of the reality. This place is always going to be divided between people with two contrasting political aspirations. No matter how hard you wish, they aren't going to put those political aspirations aside when they are asked to use their greatest political power - casting a vote in an election. The way I see it, the only way to make it better, is reunification. I make no apologies for voting accordingly. The alternative is a road to no town. A continuation of the disfunction we have now. Unionists might feel that we are better off being in the UK and that there is a better future in that. More power to them. They should vote accordingly too. I'd have far more respect for a person or party that takes a position on the biggest political decision coming down the tracks -one which has the potential to have the biggest economic and societal impact on us and future generations - than for those people or parties who wither take a tokenistic approach to the problem, pretend it doesn't exist, or (pretend to) sit on the fence.

I have thrown you off on the wrong tangent. My fault as phrased the question badly.

I am taking your premise that people wi be better off long term in a UI and therefore delivering that is people’s best interest. That seems to be the logic you are putting forward for voting for say a SF councillor.

My point is that councillor will not be able to use their tenure to achieve or meaningfully advance that UI. Meanwhile they will be able to impact on the everyday lives of people. If they are incompetent they can negatively impact people’s everyday life. So how much incompetence would you tolerate?

SF and SF candidates are far from the only incompetent actors in NI politics

LCohen

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Re: The SDLP
« Reply #826 on: November 20, 2020, 03:50:19 PM »
How would you propose that a united Ireland will be sold to unionists? Because if there's no buy in to a degree from one side we know from history what is likely to happen.  I aspire to a united Ireland but I want to see a vision clearly articulated and sold to the people.  I don't see that from SF or the SDLP at the minute. In fact, if you ask a politician to give a case for it, they tend to stumble.
I'd propose it be sold to unionists by political persuasion. To my mind, it's a no brainer: a small island, with duplicated services, part in the EU and part out of it (with a border that hinders business between north and south and a border down the sea to hinder business between east and west?) With the north totally subject to and at the mercy of the electoral whims of the worst vestiges of English nationalism, with unionists having allegiance to a landmass across the sea who's people have made it clear have no heed on the north whatsoever and want nothing to do with it? How does any of that serve us? Wouldn't unionism be better served being a big fish in the Dáíl than be a minnow in Westminster for the rest of their days? The only freak result where they held a supposed balance of power in westminster and their electoral reps were still lied to then flung under a bus at the earliest opportunity?
The thing is, I too want reunification sold to the people and as it stands, we have two parties which at least say they want reunification. So it's up to them to articulate the benefits. As far as I can see, only one of them at least tries. The greatest way to persuade unionism will be by convincing them of the economic benefits. SF are actually TODAY publishing a document outlining those economic benefits of reunification. When have the SDLP been pro-active enough to do so? Literally never, as far as I can see. So as I say, I'll continue to vote the party that I feel does most to advance my preferred outcome on the single biggest political issue of our time. That's not to say SF get a ringing endorsement. There are many things they could do better but at least they are not tokensitic in their advocating or ashamed to talk about it.


I don't want to see SF lead or take control of a future looking united Ireland agenda. The case needs to be built by and involve a much broader pool of stakeholders, opinion formers etc (call it civic nationalism or whatever).  There has to be some buy in from people from a unionist background or leaning. SF are toxic to that electorate and on their own won't deliver anything peaceful or lasting.
You mightn't want SF to take the lead, but in reality, if it's left to civic nationalism to do the persuasion, and political nationalism is seen to disengage from the core political aspiration of Irish nationalism, then it's just a non runner. It has to be an all in effort from the civic and the political. Speaking out in favour of reunification needs to be mainstreamed among across all shades of nationalism. If the SDLP are seen as more palatable to unionism, then maybe people like you ought to lobby that party to get off their ass and take a bit of initiative, and let unionism hear the arguments come from them for once. As it stands, they are leaving it to SF to do the work. If you want a United Ireland, then maybe stop taking such issue with the nationalist party that's working for it, and start taking issue with the one that isn't. FFS public support for a United Ireland is at it's highest point since partition, and Brexit has the potential to grow that support significantly, and what are the SDLP doing to take advantage of this opportunity to advocate their stated aspiration for Irish unity? Nothing. Same as always. And you are 100% right in saying there has to be unionist buy in. SF have held umpten confrences on the subject and these seem to always include unionist panelists/speakers. When did the SDLP last try to produce a document or an event, aimed purely at enhancing the unity project and invite anyone whatsoever?

Has the document being published yet?

Please tell me the lies of the past are not repeated? If the document claims that “non-identifiable public expenditures” can just be ignored and that NI pensions will be funded from London in a UI scenario then you dismiss the whole thing as a fraud.

It’s not just a matter of printing a document. Paper doesn’t refuse ink. The contents have to accurate. Every previous effort by SF has dealt in lies

Franko

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Re: The SDLP
« Reply #827 on: November 20, 2020, 04:06:47 PM »
How would you propose that a united Ireland will be sold to unionists? Because if there's no buy in to a degree from one side we know from history what is likely to happen.  I aspire to a united Ireland but I want to see a vision clearly articulated and sold to the people.  I don't see that from SF or the SDLP at the minute. In fact, if you ask a politician to give a case for it, they tend to stumble.
I'd propose it be sold to unionists by political persuasion. To my mind, it's a no brainer: a small island, with duplicated services, part in the EU and part out of it (with a border that hinders business between north and south and a border down the sea to hinder business between east and west?) With the north totally subject to and at the mercy of the electoral whims of the worst vestiges of English nationalism, with unionists having allegiance to a landmass across the sea who's people have made it clear have no heed on the north whatsoever and want nothing to do with it? How does any of that serve us? Wouldn't unionism be better served being a big fish in the Dáíl than be a minnow in Westminster for the rest of their days? The only freak result where they held a supposed balance of power in westminster and their electoral reps were still lied to then flung under a bus at the earliest opportunity?
The thing is, I too want reunification sold to the people and as it stands, we have two parties which at least say they want reunification. So it's up to them to articulate the benefits. As far as I can see, only one of them at least tries. The greatest way to persuade unionism will be by convincing them of the economic benefits. SF are actually TODAY publishing a document outlining those economic benefits of reunification. When have the SDLP been pro-active enough to do so? Literally never, as far as I can see. So as I say, I'll continue to vote the party that I feel does most to advance my preferred outcome on the single biggest political issue of our time. That's not to say SF get a ringing endorsement. There are many things they could do better but at least they are not tokensitic in their advocating or ashamed to talk about it.


I don't want to see SF lead or take control of a future looking united Ireland agenda. The case needs to be built by and involve a much broader pool of stakeholders, opinion formers etc (call it civic nationalism or whatever).  There has to be some buy in from people from a unionist background or leaning. SF are toxic to that electorate and on their own won't deliver anything peaceful or lasting.
You mightn't want SF to take the lead, but in reality, if it's left to civic nationalism to do the persuasion, and political nationalism is seen to disengage from the core political aspiration of Irish nationalism, then it's just a non runner. It has to be an all in effort from the civic and the political. Speaking out in favour of reunification needs to be mainstreamed among across all shades of nationalism. If the SDLP are seen as more palatable to unionism, then maybe people like you ought to lobby that party to get off their ass and take a bit of initiative, and let unionism hear the arguments come from them for once. As it stands, they are leaving it to SF to do the work. If you want a United Ireland, then maybe stop taking such issue with the nationalist party that's working for it, and start taking issue with the one that isn't. FFS public support for a United Ireland is at it's highest point since partition, and Brexit has the potential to grow that support significantly, and what are the SDLP doing to take advantage of this opportunity to advocate their stated aspiration for Irish unity? Nothing. Same as always. And you are 100% right in saying there has to be unionist buy in. SF have held umpten confrences on the subject and these seem to always include unionist panelists/speakers. When did the SDLP last try to produce a document or an event, aimed purely at enhancing the unity project and invite anyone whatsoever?

Has the document being published yet?

Please tell me the lies of the past are not repeated? If the document claims that “non-identifiable public expenditures” can just be ignored and that NI pensions will be funded from London in a UI scenario then you dismiss the whole thing as a fraud.

It’s not just a matter of printing a document. Paper doesn’t refuse ink. The contents have to accurate. Every previous effort by SF has dealt in lies

Know nothing of this document and have no interest in getting bogged down in this whole debate but this one is interesting.

Given that people will have paid their way into the British Exchequer for their whole working lives up until the point of separation, how can it be argued that the British Government would not bear liability for this?

Armamike

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Re: The SDLP
« Reply #828 on: November 20, 2020, 04:15:42 PM »
How would you propose that a united Ireland will be sold to unionists? Because if there's no buy in to a degree from one side we know from history what is likely to happen.  I aspire to a united Ireland but I want to see a vision clearly articulated and sold to the people.  I don't see that from SF or the SDLP at the minute. In fact, if you ask a politician to give a case for it, they tend to stumble.
I'd propose it be sold to unionists by political persuasion. To my mind, it's a no brainer: a small island, with duplicated services, part in the EU and part out of it (with a border that hinders business between north and south and a border down the sea to hinder business between east and west?) With the north totally subject to and at the mercy of the electoral whims of the worst vestiges of English nationalism, with unionists having allegiance to a landmass across the sea who's people have made it clear have no heed on the north whatsoever and want nothing to do with it? How does any of that serve us? Wouldn't unionism be better served being a big fish in the Dáíl than be a minnow in Westminster for the rest of their days? The only freak result where they held a supposed balance of power in westminster and their electoral reps were still lied to then flung under a bus at the earliest opportunity?
The thing is, I too want reunification sold to the people and as it stands, we have two parties which at least say they want reunification. So it's up to them to articulate the benefits. As far as I can see, only one of them at least tries. The greatest way to persuade unionism will be by convincing them of the economic benefits. SF are actually TODAY publishing a document outlining those economic benefits of reunification. When have the SDLP been pro-active enough to do so? Literally never, as far as I can see. So as I say, I'll continue to vote the party that I feel does most to advance my preferred outcome on the single biggest political issue of our time. That's not to say SF get a ringing endorsement. There are many things they could do better but at least they are not tokensitic in their advocating or ashamed to talk about it.


I don't want to see SF lead or take control of a future looking united Ireland agenda. The case needs to be built by and involve a much broader pool of stakeholders, opinion formers etc (call it civic nationalism or whatever).  There has to be some buy in from people from a unionist background or leaning. SF are toxic to that electorate and on their own won't deliver anything peaceful or lasting.
You mightn't want SF to take the lead, but in reality, if it's left to civic nationalism to do the persuasion, and political nationalism is seen to disengage from the core political aspiration of Irish nationalism, then it's just a non runner. It has to be an all in effort from the civic and the political. Speaking out in favour of reunification needs to be mainstreamed among across all shades of nationalism. If the SDLP are seen as more palatable to unionism, then maybe people like you ought to lobby that party to get off their ass and take a bit of initiative, and let unionism hear the arguments come from them for once. As it stands, they are leaving it to SF to do the work. If you want a United Ireland, then maybe stop taking such issue with the nationalist party that's working for it, and start taking issue with the one that isn't. FFS public support for a United Ireland is at it's highest point since partition, and Brexit has the potential to grow that support significantly, and what are the SDLP doing to take advantage of this opportunity to advocate their stated aspiration for Irish unity? Nothing. Same as always. And you are 100% right in saying there has to be unionist buy in. SF have held umpten confrences on the subject and these seem to always include unionist panelists/speakers. When did the SDLP last try to produce a document or an event, aimed purely at enhancing the unity project and invite anyone whatsoever?

Some strong arguments there for a UI.  Unionists would need to know that they have a voice.  I want to see those arguing for a UI to show a vision for how it would actually work and how it could look.  Will it be a cold house for unionists?  If we refer to the Dail with images of direct rule from Dublin, that's not a great starting point imo.  We're a very small country in geographical and population terms but a federal type of arrangement with some kind of devolvement to provinces would need to be considered.  This is the kind of conversation we need to be having now.  The more gaps there are and the more unanswered questions as to how it would actually look and work in practice, the more anxiety and lack of buy in, not just from moderate unionists but the undecided. This was a big factor in the SNP losing the referendum vote - they just didn't have the answers to questions on the basic issues affecting peoples' lives.  I agree with you, the SDLP could be more proactive on this.  To be honest, I don't know much about the SDLP's efforts behind the scenes on this. They do have a key role to play.   
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 04:18:17 PM by Armamike »
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Snapchap

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Re: The SDLP
« Reply #829 on: November 20, 2020, 04:39:06 PM »
How would you propose that a united Ireland will be sold to unionists? Because if there's no buy in to a degree from one side we know from history what is likely to happen.  I aspire to a united Ireland but I want to see a vision clearly articulated and sold to the people.  I don't see that from SF or the SDLP at the minute. In fact, if you ask a politician to give a case for it, they tend to stumble.
I'd propose it be sold to unionists by political persuasion. To my mind, it's a no brainer: a small island, with duplicated services, part in the EU and part out of it (with a border that hinders business between north and south and a border down the sea to hinder business between east and west?) With the north totally subject to and at the mercy of the electoral whims of the worst vestiges of English nationalism, with unionists having allegiance to a landmass across the sea who's people have made it clear have no heed on the north whatsoever and want nothing to do with it? How does any of that serve us? Wouldn't unionism be better served being a big fish in the Dáíl than be a minnow in Westminster for the rest of their days? The only freak result where they held a supposed balance of power in westminster and their electoral reps were still lied to then flung under a bus at the earliest opportunity?
The thing is, I too want reunification sold to the people and as it stands, we have two parties which at least say they want reunification. So it's up to them to articulate the benefits. As far as I can see, only one of them at least tries. The greatest way to persuade unionism will be by convincing them of the economic benefits. SF are actually TODAY publishing a document outlining those economic benefits of reunification. When have the SDLP been pro-active enough to do so? Literally never, as far as I can see. So as I say, I'll continue to vote the party that I feel does most to advance my preferred outcome on the single biggest political issue of our time. That's not to say SF get a ringing endorsement. There are many things they could do better but at least they are not tokensitic in their advocating or ashamed to talk about it.


I don't want to see SF lead or take control of a future looking united Ireland agenda. The case needs to be built by and involve a much broader pool of stakeholders, opinion formers etc (call it civic nationalism or whatever).  There has to be some buy in from people from a unionist background or leaning. SF are toxic to that electorate and on their own won't deliver anything peaceful or lasting.
You mightn't want SF to take the lead, but in reality, if it's left to civic nationalism to do the persuasion, and political nationalism is seen to disengage from the core political aspiration of Irish nationalism, then it's just a non runner. It has to be an all in effort from the civic and the political. Speaking out in favour of reunification needs to be mainstreamed among across all shades of nationalism. If the SDLP are seen as more palatable to unionism, then maybe people like you ought to lobby that party to get off their ass and take a bit of initiative, and let unionism hear the arguments come from them for once. As it stands, they are leaving it to SF to do the work. If you want a United Ireland, then maybe stop taking such issue with the nationalist party that's working for it, and start taking issue with the one that isn't. FFS public support for a United Ireland is at it's highest point since partition, and Brexit has the potential to grow that support significantly, and what are the SDLP doing to take advantage of this opportunity to advocate their stated aspiration for Irish unity? Nothing. Same as always. And you are 100% right in saying there has to be unionist buy in. SF have held umpten confrences on the subject and these seem to always include unionist panelists/speakers. When did the SDLP last try to produce a document or an event, aimed purely at enhancing the unity project and invite anyone whatsoever?

Has the document being published yet?

Please tell me the lies of the past are not repeated? If the document claims that “non-identifiable public expenditures” can just be ignored and that NI pensions will be funded from London in a UI scenario then you dismiss the whole thing as a fraud.

It’s not just a matter of printing a document. Paper doesn’t refuse ink. The contents have to accurate. Every previous effort by SF has dealt in lies

You make an assumption that pensions being funded from London is a lie. The document does raise this topic:

Quote
"And [the subvention figure) would be reduced further because £3.5 billion is spent on pensions. The people of the North have already accrued pension rights by way of their national insurance contributions.  This fact was recognised by the then British Pensions Minister Steve Webb (7 May 2014) who during the debate on Scottish Independence referenced the rights of pensioners in Scotland. He stated:“Yes,  they  have  accumulated  rights  into  the  UK  system,  under  the  UK system’s rules.”He said: “Take a Scottish person who works all their life and then retires to France... they still have an accumulated pension right in respect of the National Insurance they have paid in when they were part of the United Kingdom.”"

I've only just glanced at the document which is available online. I haven't read it yet, nor done any form of critical analysis. You, however, have seconded guessed it's contents and pronounced them as lies, before having seen the thing at all.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 04:42:10 PM by Snapchap »

LCohen

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Re: The SDLP
« Reply #830 on: November 20, 2020, 05:57:02 PM »
Given that people will have paid their way into the British Exchequer for their whole working lives up until the point of separation, how can it be argued that the British Government would not bear liability for this?

You are assessing one side of the issue. And assessing it correctly

The beneficiary of the pensions have accrued their rights and that will to be met.

The question is who has the responsibility to meet it.

To state the obvious NI is currently a constituent part of the UK of GB & NI. In a UI scenario it would cease to be. In leaving it would take the ongoing position with it. The UK of GB & NI would cease to be and would cease to be responsible for NI. There would have to be a divorce settlement to establish where the lines would be drawn but there are precedents. When ROI was set up it took on these liabilities in RoI. As UK leaves the EU it takes the pensions liability with it. In the Scottish independence referendum it was established that Scots would retain their UK pension rights but at the expense of the would-be Scottish exchequer.

LCohen

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Re: The SDLP
« Reply #831 on: November 20, 2020, 06:00:46 PM »
How would you propose that a united Ireland will be sold to unionists? Because if there's no buy in to a degree from one side we know from history what is likely to happen.  I aspire to a united Ireland but I want to see a vision clearly articulated and sold to the people.  I don't see that from SF or the SDLP at the minute. In fact, if you ask a politician to give a case for it, they tend to stumble.
I'd propose it be sold to unionists by political persuasion. To my mind, it's a no brainer: a small island, with duplicated services, part in the EU and part out of it (with a border that hinders business between north and south and a border down the sea to hinder business between east and west?) With the north totally subject to and at the mercy of the electoral whims of the worst vestiges of English nationalism, with unionists having allegiance to a landmass across the sea who's people have made it clear have no heed on the north whatsoever and want nothing to do with it? How does any of that serve us? Wouldn't unionism be better served being a big fish in the Dáíl than be a minnow in Westminster for the rest of their days? The only freak result where they held a supposed balance of power in westminster and their electoral reps were still lied to then flung under a bus at the earliest opportunity?
The thing is, I too want reunification sold to the people and as it stands, we have two parties which at least say they want reunification. So it's up to them to articulate the benefits. As far as I can see, only one of them at least tries. The greatest way to persuade unionism will be by convincing them of the economic benefits. SF are actually TODAY publishing a document outlining those economic benefits of reunification. When have the SDLP been pro-active enough to do so? Literally never, as far as I can see. So as I say, I'll continue to vote the party that I feel does most to advance my preferred outcome on the single biggest political issue of our time. That's not to say SF get a ringing endorsement. There are many things they could do better but at least they are not tokensitic in their advocating or ashamed to talk about it.


I don't want to see SF lead or take control of a future looking united Ireland agenda. The case needs to be built by and involve a much broader pool of stakeholders, opinion formers etc (call it civic nationalism or whatever).  There has to be some buy in from people from a unionist background or leaning. SF are toxic to that electorate and on their own won't deliver anything peaceful or lasting.
You mightn't want SF to take the lead, but in reality, if it's left to civic nationalism to do the persuasion, and political nationalism is seen to disengage from the core political aspiration of Irish nationalism, then it's just a non runner. It has to be an all in effort from the civic and the political. Speaking out in favour of reunification needs to be mainstreamed among across all shades of nationalism. If the SDLP are seen as more palatable to unionism, then maybe people like you ought to lobby that party to get off their ass and take a bit of initiative, and let unionism hear the arguments come from them for once. As it stands, they are leaving it to SF to do the work. If you want a United Ireland, then maybe stop taking such issue with the nationalist party that's working for it, and start taking issue with the one that isn't. FFS public support for a United Ireland is at it's highest point since partition, and Brexit has the potential to grow that support significantly, and what are the SDLP doing to take advantage of this opportunity to advocate their stated aspiration for Irish unity? Nothing. Same as always. And you are 100% right in saying there has to be unionist buy in. SF have held umpten confrences on the subject and these seem to always include unionist panelists/speakers. When did the SDLP last try to produce a document or an event, aimed purely at enhancing the unity project and invite anyone whatsoever?

Has the document being published yet?

Please tell me the lies of the past are not repeated? If the document claims that “non-identifiable public expenditures” can just be ignored and that NI pensions will be funded from London in a UI scenario then you dismiss the whole thing as a fraud.

It’s not just a matter of printing a document. Paper doesn’t refuse ink. The contents have to accurate. Every previous effort by SF has dealt in lies

You make an assumption that pensions being funded from London is a lie. The document does raise this topic:

Quote
"And [the subvention figure) would be reduced further because £3.5 billion is spent on pensions. The people of the North have already accrued pension rights by way of their national insurance contributions.  This fact was recognised by the then British Pensions Minister Steve Webb (7 May 2014) who during the debate on Scottish Independence referenced the rights of pensioners in Scotland. He stated:“Yes,  they  have  accumulated  rights  into  the  UK  system,  under  the  UK system’s rules.”He said: “Take a Scottish person who works all their life and then retires to France... they still have an accumulated pension right in respect of the National Insurance they have paid in when they were part of the United Kingdom.”"

I've only just glanced at the document which is available online. I haven't read it yet, nor done any form of critical analysis. You, however, have seconded guessed it's contents and pronounced them as lies, before having seen the thing at all.

What an utterly silly response.

I have not read the document yet.

I said that I hoped it did not repeat the lies of previous efforts. Your contribution seems to indicate that it has. If it contains lies we should definitely call them out.

If you read the reply above re pensions you will see what I mean

Angelo

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Re: The SDLP
« Reply #832 on: November 20, 2020, 06:10:59 PM »
Guessed when I came in here for a nosey that Angelo would figure prominently in whatever was going on...

A one man thread ruining wrecking ball.

What is it you have an issue with?

Angelo

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Re: The SDLP
« Reply #833 on: November 20, 2020, 06:13:51 PM »
The SDLP really aren't a nationalist party and that's about the nub of it.

Rossfan

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Re: The SDLP
« Reply #834 on: November 20, 2020, 06:34:01 PM »
Would I be right to presume that the new All Ireland entity will not inherit the 6 Cos share of the "UK" National debt?

I suppose getting reparations from 1169 is out of the question :-\
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LCohen

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Re: The SDLP
« Reply #835 on: November 20, 2020, 07:36:41 PM »
Would I be right to presume that the new All Ireland entity will not inherit the 6 Cos share of the "UK" National debt?

I suppose getting reparations from 1169 is out of the question :-\

To early to say. It would have to negotiated at the time. A benevolent interpretation would be that NI is so small relative to GB and its so costly that GB would cut their losses. An alternative interpretation is that the hardliners would say no feckin way or even no way will we sell our unionist brethren down the river. It’s very unpredictable. Depends on which party/parties are in power in Westminster, how large is their majority, what factions exist within the ruling party and how strong the economy and economic outlook is. Very unpredictable.

IRA always said they only had to get lucky once. This would be the once for nationalism

LCohen

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Re: The SDLP
« Reply #836 on: November 20, 2020, 07:39:34 PM »
The SDLP really aren't a nationalist party and that's about the nub of it.

If they published an economic document based on lies would that make them more or less nationalist?

marty34

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Re: The SDLP
« Reply #837 on: November 20, 2020, 08:43:43 PM »
How would you propose that a united Ireland will be sold to unionists? Because if there's no buy in to a degree from one side we know from history what is likely to happen.  I aspire to a united Ireland but I want to see a vision clearly articulated and sold to the people.  I don't see that from SF or the SDLP at the minute. In fact, if you ask a politician to give a case for it, they tend to stumble.  I don't want to see SF lead or take control of a future looking united Ireland agenda.  The case needs to be built by and involve a much broader pool of stakeholders, opinion formers etc (call it civic nationalism or whatever).  There has to be some buy in from people from a unionist background or leaning. SF are toxic to that electorate and on their own won't deliver anything peaceful or lasting.

There will be no UNITED Ireland anytime soon. What I mean is even if we see it physically we will not have a happy or peaceful society. Unionists are not ready for it, SF are the wrong party to convince them. We need a different party to bridge the gap. I don't know how we get around that

And when will unionists be ready for it then?

Unionists will never be ready for it?

marty34

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Re: The SDLP
« Reply #838 on: November 20, 2020, 08:51:29 PM »
How would you propose that a united Ireland will be sold to unionists? Because if there's no buy in to a degree from one side we know from history what is likely to happen.  I aspire to a united Ireland but I want to see a vision clearly articulated and sold to the people.  I don't see that from SF or the SDLP at the minute. In fact, if you ask a politician to give a case for it, they tend to stumble.
I'd propose it be sold to unionists by political persuasion. To my mind, it's a no brainer: a small island, with duplicated services, part in the EU and part out of it (with a border that hinders business between north and south and a border down the sea to hinder business between east and west?) With the north totally subject to and at the mercy of the electoral whims of the worst vestiges of English nationalism, with unionists having allegiance to a landmass across the sea who's people have made it clear have no heed on the north whatsoever and want nothing to do with it? How does any of that serve us? Wouldn't unionism be better served being a big fish in the Dáíl than be a minnow in Westminster for the rest of their days? The only freak result where they held a supposed balance of power in westminster and their electoral reps were still lied to then flung under a bus at the earliest opportunity?
The thing is, I too want reunification sold to the people and as it stands, we have two parties which at least say they want reunification. So it's up to them to articulate the benefits. As far as I can see, only one of them at least tries. The greatest way to persuade unionism will be by convincing them of the economic benefits. SF are actually TODAY publishing a document outlining those economic benefits of reunification. When have the SDLP been pro-active enough to do so? Literally never, as far as I can see. So as I say, I'll continue to vote the party that I feel does most to advance my preferred outcome on the single biggest political issue of our time. That's not to say SF get a ringing endorsement. There are many things they could do better but at least they are not tokensitic in their advocating or ashamed to talk about it.


I don't want to see SF lead or take control of a future looking united Ireland agenda. The case needs to be built by and involve a much broader pool of stakeholders, opinion formers etc (call it civic nationalism or whatever).  There has to be some buy in from people from a unionist background or leaning. SF are toxic to that electorate and on their own won't deliver anything peaceful or lasting.
You mightn't want SF to take the lead, but in reality, if it's left to civic nationalism to do the persuasion, and political nationalism is seen to disengage from the core political aspiration of Irish nationalism, then it's just a non runner. It has to be an all in effort from the civic and the political. Speaking out in favour of reunification needs to be mainstreamed among across all shades of nationalism. If the SDLP are seen as more palatable to unionism, then maybe people like you ought to lobby that party to get off their ass and take a bit of initiative, and let unionism hear the arguments come from them for once. As it stands, they are leaving it to SF to do the work. If you want a United Ireland, then maybe stop taking such issue with the nationalist party that's working for it, and start taking issue with the one that isn't. FFS public support for a United Ireland is at it's highest point since partition, and Brexit has the potential to grow that support significantly, and what are the SDLP doing to take advantage of this opportunity to advocate their stated aspiration for Irish unity? Nothing. Same as always. And you are 100% right in saying there has to be unionist buy in. SF have held umpten confrences on the subject and these seem to always include unionist panelists/speakers. When did the SDLP last try to produce a document or an event, aimed purely at enhancing the unity project and invite anyone whatsoever?

Some strong arguments there for a UI.  Unionists would need to know that they have a voice.  I want to see those arguing for a UI to show a vision for how it would actually work and how it could look.  Will it be a cold house for unionists?  If we refer to the Dail with images of direct rule from Dublin, that's not a great starting point imo.  We're a very small country in geographical and population terms but a federal type of arrangement with some kind of devolvement to provinces would need to be considered.  This is the kind of conversation we need to be having now.  The more gaps there are and the more unanswered questions as to how it would actually look and work in practice, the more anxiety and lack of buy in, not just from moderate unionists but the undecided. This was a big factor in the SNP losing the referendum vote - they just didn't have the answers to questions on the basic issues affecting peoples' lives.  I agree with you, the SDLP could be more proactive on this.  To be honest, I don't know much about the SDLP's efforts behind the scenes on this. They do have a key role to play.

The SDLP are, as we saw from the recent election,  big buds with FF/FG - candidates canvassing for both FF and FG. Wtf?

M. Martin has a big new shiny unit on the shared island waffle but won't even endorse a border poll....with the classic 'it's not the right time'.

Fear Bun Na Sceilpe

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Re: The SDLP
« Reply #839 on: November 20, 2020, 11:26:13 PM »
How would you propose that a united Ireland will be sold to unionists? Because if there's no buy in to a degree from one side we know from history what is likely to happen.  I aspire to a united Ireland but I want to see a vision clearly articulated and sold to the people.  I don't see that from SF or the SDLP at the minute. In fact, if you ask a politician to give a case for it, they tend to stumble.  I don't want to see SF lead or take control of a future looking united Ireland agenda.  The case needs to be built by and involve a much broader pool of stakeholders, opinion formers etc (call it civic nationalism or whatever).  There has to be some buy in from people from a unionist background or leaning. SF are toxic to that electorate and on their own won't deliver anything peaceful or lasting.

There will be no UNITED Ireland anytime soon. What I mean is even if we see it physically we will not have a happy or peaceful society. Unionists are not ready for it, SF are the wrong party to convince them. We need a different party to bridge the gap. I don't know how we get around that

And when will unionists be ready for it then?

Unionists will never be ready for it?

How you reckon we deal with that