Cluiche ceannais na sraithe: Corcaigh v Maigh Eo

[Logan]

I agree with Muppet above in that people mood swing a bit. I honestly don t think yesterday puts us up or down much anyway. Nothing happened yesterday that surprised me in any way. We are where we are. We have enough raw talent to do well in largely unstructured games but we are hopeless when it comes to a serious test against counties we haven't grown up with. Sad to say I agree with Logan on this one. Since Johnno s return we have been bitchslapped by Derry and Meath when it counted. Tyrone playing below par let us punch ourselves out and bullied us at the end. What has changed? Nothing imo.
Not all is lost for the Sligo match. In fact yesterday probably worst thing that could happen from a Sligo perspective. Mayo will I expect be very thick in Sligo as a result of yesterday. If yesterday had gone wellish then I shudder to think what show would turn up in June. If we get over that the next game will be 50/50 as usual. We could make the 1/4 finals and with a favorable draw the last 4.
The only thing is though I dont believe we have the knowhow to solve our problems. While we have a manager we dont have a top coach. Somebody pointed out that there is more to defending than just getting bodies back. Yesterday at one stage there were 6 Mayo lads v 3 Cork forwards but Cork still managed to score without a glove being left on anybody. People were praising Johnno for nursing A O Sé into senior team. My hole, its sink or swim stuff. No evidence of guidance or coaching. He s still trying to bullock past defenders like he did a minor. No laying off. Nothing. Parsons has not improved one iota under him. Trevor has gone back in what should be his prime. Maybe the captaincy doesn't suit him. The best game Trevor played since o4 was in Celtic Park in the Derry debacle - as a half back. Of course the display was lost in the carnage but maybe that's the place for him. I expect to hear he s being played at 6 in challenge matches next few weeks. Johnno made a no.6 out of Tomas Mannion in 01 when Galway was in crisis. I always reckoned he was desperate and got lucky. Now he has the chance to prove it wasn't luck. I ve seen both Liam O Malley and Trevor play excellently  at 6 for their clubs. At least that's a start. I m not going to pick a team here because its deckchairs on the Titanic as long as the management cover up their deficiencies by hiring psychologists. They d be better off sending for a real leader like Aidan Higgins. Johnno clearly likes to be the dominant personality in the dressing room but he s not able to cross the white line and his generals are too often cowed or to distracted when needed on big days. This 'butter me bread daddy' approach just isn't working. We need coaching a ruthless approach to selection and how we play. Johnno has only shown ruthlessness when it came to dropping players before their time, or because they were a bit difficult. In his first stint in Mayo he inherited a team full of leaders like Forde, Flanagan, TJ, Willie Joe , Jimmy Burke et al. But after they got to an AI final he couldn't keep it lit. Ditto in Leitrim with the Quinns, Darcy and Flanagan. This team he has spent 4 years building seem to have had all their initiative talked out of them but neither have they been given any real shape, cohesion or gameplan.
Anybody else notice the huge size difference between the two teams. Maybe stronger lads like Kilcullen and Campbell were too quickly jettisoned. We re deficient in power in too many lines.
Only Vaughan and Cafferkey threaten the 6' mark in the backs.

Actually you may have put your finger on a few very good points - especially wrt coaching & psychology.
Does actually bringing in a psychologist actually highlight a problem and have the opposite effect of the original intention?
Does it just highlight the elephant in the room more?
I am surprised at Jonno to be honest as years ago I considered him a far more 'ruthless kinda ba$tard' to be honest (I mean that in a positive sense). Has his day past?
The point on coaching is a very good one also - something that many teams overlook, but some of the better ones I know (without going into specifics) concentrate more on that than the physical or would have one believe. But I don't know enough about the internal workings of the Mayo backroom set up to criticize that.
I would say that wrt to size - every team would probably look small along side Cork, so that might an unfair comparison.
On the whole, I agree though, all is not lost for Sligo by a long shot, but victory in an NFL final would have been a welcome declaration of intent and ability.

I don't believe its pschology Logan in Mayo's case. Its down to coaching. Mayo's forwards don't tackle . 80% of their problems on Sunday and I was at the game came from forwards inviting the Cork backs to attack them. Just made it so easy for them. Also there is little point in filtering back bodies to mark space. Dublin did the same in Pairc Ui Rinn and were demolished- did the same against Galway and lost which cost them a place in the National Final. Who are the worker bees on the mayo team?
The ball into AOS has to go high because he's one paced but Mayo kept kicking it into the corners for him. Pointless. I thought Mayo struggled at midfield. To have any chance against Cork you have to stop them at source- ie midfield. Easier said then done but Cork mopped up most of the breaks on Sunday losing leaving their full back line exposed.
I thought all of the Mayo FB line played well. Its no fun in the FB line when the ball is constantly raining in the whole time.

Mayo will make the last 8 and could make the last 4. But thats as far as they'll go this year. Cork and Kerry are too far ahead of everybody. Tyrone mounting any sort of a challenge is conditional on all of Tyrone's forward players being back and restructuring the defence with new options. New options I don't think they have. But we'll see.

I can understand people putting Cork ahead of the pack at this stage based on the League, but to say Kerry are 'too far ahead' of everybody else is far-fetched.

Agree - at this stage only Cork are standing out (but I suspect the Kerry will still be ahead of Cork come the end of the Summer!)

[INDIANA]

I agree with Muppet above in that people mood swing a bit. I honestly don t think yesterday puts us up or down much anyway. Nothing happened yesterday that surprised me in any way. We are where we are. We have enough raw talent to do well in largely unstructured games but we are hopeless when it comes to a serious test against counties we haven't grown up with. Sad to say I agree with Logan on this one. Since Johnno s return we have been bitchslapped by Derry and Meath when it counted. Tyrone playing below par let us punch ourselves out and bullied us at the end. What has changed? Nothing imo.
Not all is lost for the Sligo match. In fact yesterday probably worst thing that could happen from a Sligo perspective. Mayo will I expect be very thick in Sligo as a result of yesterday. If yesterday had gone wellish then I shudder to think what show would turn up in June. If we get over that the next game will be 50/50 as usual. We could make the 1/4 finals and with a favorable draw the last 4.
The only thing is though I dont believe we have the knowhow to solve our problems. While we have a manager we dont have a top coach. Somebody pointed out that there is more to defending than just getting bodies back. Yesterday at one stage there were 6 Mayo lads v 3 Cork forwards but Cork still managed to score without a glove being left on anybody. People were praising Johnno for nursing A O Sé into senior team. My hole, its sink or swim stuff. No evidence of guidance or coaching. He s still trying to bullock past defenders like he did a minor. No laying off. Nothing. Parsons has not improved one iota under him. Trevor has gone back in what should be his prime. Maybe the captaincy doesn't suit him. The best game Trevor played since o4 was in Celtic Park in the Derry debacle - as a half back. Of course the display was lost in the carnage but maybe that's the place for him. I expect to hear he s being played at 6 in challenge matches next few weeks. Johnno made a no.6 out of Tomas Mannion in 01 when Galway was in crisis. I always reckoned he was desperate and got lucky. Now he has the chance to prove it wasn't luck. I ve seen both Liam O Malley and Trevor play excellently  at 6 for their clubs. At least that's a start. I m not going to pick a team here because its deckchairs on the Titanic as long as the management cover up their deficiencies by hiring psychologists. They d be better off sending for a real leader like Aidan Higgins. Johnno clearly likes to be the dominant personality in the dressing room but he s not able to cross the white line and his generals are too often cowed or to distracted when needed on big days. This 'butter me bread daddy' approach just isn't working. We need coaching a ruthless approach to selection and how we play. Johnno has only shown ruthlessness when it came to dropping players before their time, or because they were a bit difficult. In his first stint in Mayo he inherited a team full of leaders like Forde, Flanagan, TJ, Willie Joe , Jimmy Burke et al. But after they got to an AI final he couldn't keep it lit. Ditto in Leitrim with the Quinns, Darcy and Flanagan. This team he has spent 4 years building seem to have had all their initiative talked out of them but neither have they been given any real shape, cohesion or gameplan.
Anybody else notice the huge size difference between the two teams. Maybe stronger lads like Kilcullen and Campbell were too quickly jettisoned. We re deficient in power in too many lines.
Only Vaughan and Cafferkey threaten the 6' mark in the backs.

Actually you may have put your finger on a few very good points - especially wrt coaching & psychology.
Does actually bringing in a psychologist actually highlight a problem and have the opposite effect of the original intention?
Does it just highlight the elephant in the room more?
I am surprised at Jonno to be honest as years ago I considered him a far more 'ruthless kinda ba$tard' to be honest (I mean that in a positive sense). Has his day past?
The point on coaching is a very good one also - something that many teams overlook, but some of the better ones I know (without going into specifics) concentrate more on that than the physical or would have one believe. But I don't know enough about the internal workings of the Mayo backroom set up to criticize that.
I would say that wrt to size - every team would probably look small along side Cork, so that might an unfair comparison.
On the whole, I agree though, all is not lost for Sligo by a long shot, but victory in an NFL final would have been a welcome declaration of intent and ability.

I don't believe its pschology Logan in Mayo's case. Its down to coaching. Mayo's forwards don't tackle . 80% of their problems on Sunday and I was at the game came from forwards inviting the Cork backs to attack them. Just made it so easy for them. Also there is little point in filtering back bodies to mark space. Dublin did the same in Pairc Ui Rinn and were demolished- did the same against Galway and lost which cost them a place in the National Final. Who are the worker bees on the mayo team?
The ball into AOS has to go high because he's one paced but Mayo kept kicking it into the corners for him. Pointless. I thought Mayo struggled at midfield. To have any chance against Cork you have to stop them at source- ie midfield. Easier said then done but Cork mopped up most of the breaks on Sunday losing leaving their full back line exposed.
I thought all of the Mayo FB line played well. Its no fun in the FB line when the ball is constantly raining in the whole time.

Mayo will make the last 8 and could make the last 4. But thats as far as they'll go this year. Cork and Kerry are too far ahead of everybody. Tyrone mounting any sort of a challenge is conditional on all of Tyrone's forward players being back and restructuring the defence with new options. New options I don't think they have. But we'll see.

I can understand people putting Cork ahead of the pack at this stage based on the League, but to say Kerry are 'too far ahead' of everybody else is far-fetched.

Kerry have a proven track record of excellence no other county can match and they are reigning all-ireland champions. That puts them ahead IMO.

[Lar Naparka]

I don't believe its pschology Logan in Mayo's case. Its down to coaching. Mayo's forwards don't tackle . 80% of their problems on Sunday and I was at the game came from forwards inviting the Cork backs to attack them. Just made it so easy for them. Also there is little point in filtering back bodies to mark space. Dublin did the same in Pairc Ui Rinn and were demolished- did the same against Galway and lost which cost them a place in the National Final. Who are the worker bees on the mayo team?
The ball into AOS has to go high because he's one paced but Mayo kept kicking it into the corners for him. Pointless. I thought Mayo struggled at midfield. To have any chance against Cork you have to stop them at source- ie midfield. Easier said then done but Cork mopped up most of the breaks on Sunday losing leaving their full back line exposed.
I thought all of the Mayo FB line played well. Its no fun in the FB line when the ball is constantly raining in the whole time.

Mayo will make the last 8 and could make the last 4. But thats as far as they'll go this year. Cork and Kerry are too far ahead of everybody. Tyrone mounting any sort of a challenge is conditional on all of Tyrone's forward players being back and restructuring the defence with new options. New options I don't think they have. But we'll see.

I don't think I can agree with you on this, Indy; I've been hooked o n Mayo football for 50 years or more and I've seen it all before too many times. I don't think a spot of coaching anything to anybody will get us anywhere, now or ever.
I also was at the game last Sunday and I saw the mistakes you refer to but spotting them is easy; eradicating them is quite another matter. Would you agree that it was the half forward line that first lost the plot and stood off their markers right from the throw in? Thereafter, they were to be found anywhere around the field except where they were supposed to be. No doubt but they tried their hardest but as often as not got in the way of the backs or tried to bulldoze their way through several opponents and invariably got disposed in the process. The rot started from there and before long most of the others were running around like headless chickens. Only the FB trio and the goalie kept any semblance of sanity; remember Cork only scored one goal and that came leading up to the end when the contest was well and truly over.
Yet, those three lads are amongst the most experienced IC players to be found anywhere and all have had many stellar displays in the past. I don't think any of them could benefit from any sort of coaching at this stage of their careers. They either have the skills required  by now or they never will pick them up.
The team gave a very good account of itself, right up to the final. Along the line they had a fair few hard matches and had to dig deep to win most of the ones they won. No shortage of bottle there. They scored more and conceded less than any other team in their division.
I think it's fair to say they wouldn't have gotten to the final if they had been as inept  through the preliminary rounds as they were last Sunday. I put it down to the pressure of unrealistic exceptions that most Mayo supporters have.

[moysider]

I don't believe its pschology Logan in Mayo's case. Its down to coaching. Mayo's forwards don't tackle . 80% of their problems on Sunday and I was at the game came from forwards inviting the Cork backs to attack them. Just made it so easy for them. Also there is little point in filtering back bodies to mark space. Dublin did the same in Pairc Ui Rinn and were demolished- did the same against Galway and lost which cost them a place in the National Final. Who are the worker bees on the mayo team?
The ball into AOS has to go high because he's one paced but Mayo kept kicking it into the corners for him. Pointless. I thought Mayo struggled at midfield. To have any chance against Cork you have to stop them at source- ie midfield. Easier said then done but Cork mopped up most of the breaks on Sunday losing leaving their full back line exposed.
I thought all of the Mayo FB line played well. Its no fun in the FB line when the ball is constantly raining in the whole time.

Mayo will make the last 8 and could make the last 4. But thats as far as they'll go this year. Cork and Kerry are too far ahead of everybody. Tyrone mounting any sort of a challenge is conditional on all of Tyrone's forward players being back and restructuring the defence with new options. New options I don't think they have. But we'll see.

I don't think I can agree with you on this, Indy; I've been hooked o n Mayo football for 50 years or more and I've seen it all before too many times. I don't think a spot of coaching anything to anybody will get us anywhere, now or ever.
I also was at the game last Sunday and I saw the mistakes you refer to but spotting them is easy; eradicating them is quite another matter. Would you agree that it was the half forward line that first lost the plot and stood off their markers right from the throw in? Thereafter, they were to be found anywhere around the field except where they were supposed to be. No doubt but they tried their hardest but as often as not got in the way of the backs or tried to bulldoze their way through several opponents and invariably got disposed in the process. The rot started from there and before long most of the others were running around like headless chickens. Only the FB trio and the goalie kept any semblance of sanity; remember Cork only scored one goal and that came leading up to the end when the contest was well and truly over.
Yet, those three lads are amongst the most experienced IC players to be found anywhere and all have had many stellar displays in the past. I don't think any of them could benefit from any sort of coaching at this stage of their careers. They either have the skills required  by now or they never will pick them up.
The team gave a very good account of itself, right up to the final. Along the line they had a fair few hard matches and had to dig deep to win most of the ones they won. No shortage of bottle there. They scored more and conceded less than any other team in their division.
I think it's fair to say they wouldn't have gotten to the final if they had been as inept  through the preliminary rounds as they were last Sunday. I put it down to the pressure of unrealistic exceptions that most Mayo supporters have.

I couldn't agree there at all Lar. First of all there is very little expectation among Mayo supporters within the county any more. Or interest for that matter. Reading the Western you d think the county is up in a heap with the county team but a lot have moved on. I think we were instructed to anyway. The way the Mac affair was handled more or less told the ordinary supported to mind hid own business.
I detect that some exiles still have a notion that the Boys Of Summer days of Corcoran, O Dowd, Willie Joe and TJ are with us where Mayo football people believe that the next Summer will be theirs.Not so.There was the smallest crowds for this years league I ever saw for home games even though the team was goin well. I had a jar with a few lads that still play club last Sunday evening. None had been at a Mayo game in years ( some had played county underage). To them Team County Mayo is an embarrassment and a failure. And a nusiance to club. Not nice but a common sentiment. Local kids were doin a charity walk while the game was on and did nt have to be forced out. No interest. Unrealistic expectations is another myth that has been stuck on with the hoodoos and other myths to explain what are football failings.
You r correct in identifying the half forward line as being a disaster the last day. But you can be sure they were trying to play to instruction. I m sure they were told to get behind the ball and it didn't work out. 2 of those 3 had great games in the league but in different circumstances. Croke park nothing to do with it. Our earlier games those 2 played well when we were controlling possession and dictating the game. The last day they were on the hind foot. I wouldn't be too harsh on individuals but we need to work on dealing with other teams strengths in big games. Saying that I believe Cork are at least 6-8 points better than we are right now. But the great thing about football is that teams never stay in the one place for long. A team is always either improving or going backwards. If management have the nous this team is still on the upward limb of the curve.

[highorlow]

It's only the league and best to get the bad game out of the way.

I did sense previously that getting to a league final would do us more harm than good, but I've changed my view now.

Endemic in Mayo football is that when we win a few games in a row that complacency sets in and that we feel that we just have to stroll onto the field and things will happen for us automatically rather than us making them happen.

Obviously the 'thrown' Cork match a few weeks before added to this disease. From the off there was no conviction or passion to the encouter by the Mayo lads. Hopefully this will be cured come June and without sounding disrespectful to the Sligo lads they will be meeting a very wounded animal now in this Mayo team and could be in for a horrific pasting in the first round.

I don't think we are a bad team and at the same time I don't think we are a great team but we certainly aren't far off the mark and if Johnno gets some luck this year which he is long overdue you would never know...

[An Gaeilgoir]

I don't believe its pschology Logan in Mayo's case. Its down to coaching. Mayo's forwards don't tackle . 80% of their problems on Sunday and I was at the game came from forwards inviting the Cork backs to attack them. Just made it so easy for them. Also there is little point in filtering back bodies to mark space. Dublin did the same in Pairc Ui Rinn and were demolished- did the same against Galway and lost which cost them a place in the National Final. Who are the worker bees on the mayo team?
The ball into AOS has to go high because he's one paced but Mayo kept kicking it into the corners for him. Pointless. I thought Mayo struggled at midfield. To have any chance against Cork you have to stop them at source- ie midfield. Easier said then done but Cork mopped up most of the breaks on Sunday losing leaving their full back line exposed.
I thought all of the Mayo FB line played well. Its no fun in the FB line when the ball is constantly raining in the whole time.

Mayo will make the last 8 and could make the last 4. But thats as far as they'll go this year. Cork and Kerry are too far ahead of everybody. Tyrone mounting any sort of a challenge is conditional on all of Tyrone's forward players being back and restructuring the defence with new options. New options I don't think they have. But we'll see.

I don't think I can agree with you on this, Indy; I've been hooked o n Mayo football for 50 years or more and I've seen it all before too many times. I don't think a spot of coaching anything to anybody will get us anywhere, now or ever.
I also was at the game last Sunday and I saw the mistakes you refer to but spotting them is easy; eradicating them is quite another matter. Would you agree that it was the half forward line that first lost the plot and stood off their markers right from the throw in? Thereafter, they were to be found anywhere around the field except where they were supposed to be. No doubt but they tried their hardest but as often as not got in the way of the backs or tried to bulldoze their way through several opponents and invariably got disposed in the process. The rot started from there and before long most of the others were running around like headless chickens. Only the FB trio and the goalie kept any semblance of sanity; remember Cork only scored one goal and that came leading up to the end when the contest was well and truly over.
Yet, those three lads are amongst the most experienced IC players to be found anywhere and all have had many stellar displays in the past. I don't think any of them could benefit from any sort of coaching at this stage of their careers. They either have the skills required  by now or they never will pick them up.
The team gave a very good account of itself, right up to the final. Along the line they had a fair few hard matches and had to dig deep to win most of the ones they won. No shortage of bottle there. They scored more and conceded less than any other team in their division.
I think it's fair to say they wouldn't have gotten to the final if they had been as inept  through the preliminary rounds as they were last Sunday. I put it down to the pressure of unrealistic exceptions that most Mayo supporters have.

I couldn't agree there at all Lar. First of all there is very little expectation among Mayo supporters within the county any more. Or interest for that matter. Reading the Western you d think the county is up in a heap with the county team but a lot have moved on. I think we were instructed to anyway. The way the Mac affair was handled more or less told the ordinary supported to mind hid own business.
I detect that some exiles still have a notion that the Boys Of Summer days of Corcoran, O Dowd, Willie Joe and TJ are with us where Mayo football people believe that the next Summer will be theirs.Not so.There was the smallest crowds for this years league I ever saw for home games even though the team was goin well. I had a jar with a few lads that still play club last Sunday evening. None had been at a Mayo game in years ( some had played county underage). To them Team County Mayo is an embarrassment and a failure. And a nusiance to club. Not nice but a common sentiment. Local kids were doin a charity walk while the game was on and did nt have to be forced out. No interest. Unrealistic expectations is another myth that has been stuck on with the hoodoos and other myths to explain what are football failings.
You r correct in identifying the half forward line as being a disaster the last day. But you can be sure they were trying to play to instruction. I m sure they were told to get behind the ball and it didn't work out. 2 of those 3 had great games in the league but in different circumstances. Croke park nothing to do with it. Our earlier games those 2 played well when we were controlling possession and dictating the game. The last day they were on the hind foot. I wouldn't be too harsh on individuals but we need to work on dealing with other teams strengths in big games. Saying that I believe Cork are at least 6-8 points better than we are right now. But the great thing about football is that teams never stay in the one place for long. A team is always either improving or going backwards. If management have the nous this team is still on the upward limb of the curve.

As Lar as pointed out it wasn't the lesser experienced lads who lost their way on Sunday, it was the senior players who in the main have played in Croke park on average once a year since their senior careers started and most played there at minor level. Surely, these lads can change a gameplan if they can see things are not working out, like with the half forward line in the first half,  they must have the experience and confidence in their own decision making, to do this on the field. If they are waiting for the manager to point these things out to them, well we really are goosed. The will to win has to superceed everything else and it seemed it was lacking on Sunday, which going on previous games was a suprise. Some players relish these big occasions and the big stage and some go and hide. This trait can not be trained or coached by managers. We have in my opinion, been lacking leaders on the pitch for a while now, leadership shown by the like Benny Coulter and Mc Donnell from the first game. We need to also develop a bit of a harder edge, we were turned over in the tackle way too easily and it was impossible to count how many times the player in possesion was isolated under the Cusack stand during the game. As for our expectations going into the game, the least we could expect was players giving it all for the cause and regardless of the result,  would have sufficed. Finally we didn't have one mark in the game going by my recolation, if we can't win primary possession, it's up hill all the way.

[seafoid]

It's only April after all. Mayo could still shape up in the championship.  Cork probably deserve an all-Ireland but they could just as easily freeze on the big day as they have done in the past. Nobody knows anything in April anyway. 

[Main Street]

I don't think I can agree with you on this, Indy; I've been hooked o n Mayo football for 50 years or more and I've seen it all before too many times. I don't think a spot of coaching anything to anybody will get us anywhere, now or ever.
I also was at the game last Sunday and I saw the mistakes you refer to but spotting them is easy; eradicating them is quite another matter. Would you agree that it was the half forward line that first lost the plot and stood off their markers right from the throw in? Thereafter, they were to be found anywhere around the field except where they were supposed to be. No doubt but they tried their hardest but as often as not got in the way of the backs or tried to bulldoze their way through several opponents and invariably got disposed in the process. The rot started from there and before long most of the others were running around like headless chickens. Only the FB trio and the goalie kept any semblance of sanity; remember Cork only scored one goal and that came leading up to the end when the contest was well and truly over.

I'd agree with that. If I was to pick one thing on which everything else collapsed, it was discipline.
Especially in the 2nd half when Mayo should have pegged Cork back  from 5 to 2 points behind.
If only your more talented players had the mettle of one your less talented players, O'Malley.

You have plenty of well coached talented technical players, I'd say it would be a perfect management scenario for Micko. Build the helicopter pad and He will surely come.

[spuds]

If only your more talented players had the mettle of one your less talented players, O'Malley.

shoulder into the chest when match lost is only good to impress the barstool fools back in newport and mulranny

[Main Street]

Not the point I was making. Talented players show their mettle in other ways.  Not by throwing away point chance after point chance when only 5 behind and standing down.

[Lar Naparka]

As Lar as pointed out it wasn't the lesser experienced lads who lost their way on Sunday, it was the senior players who in the main have played in Croke park on average once a year since their senior careers started and most played there at minor level. Surely, these lads can change a gameplan if they can see things are not working out, like with the half forward line in the first half,  they must have the experience and confidence in their own decision making, to do this on the field. If they are waiting for the manager to point these things out to them, well we really are goosed. The will to win has to superceed everything else and it seemed it was lacking on Sunday, which going on previous games was a suprise. Some players relish these big occasions and the big stage and some go and hide. This trait can not be trained or coached by managers. We have in my opinion, been lacking leaders on the pitch for a while now, leadership shown by the like Benny Coulter and Mc Donnell from the first game. We need to also develop a bit of a harder edge, we were turned over in the tackle way too easily and it was impossible to count how many times the player in possesion was isolated under the Cusack stand during the game. As for our expectations going into the game, the least we could expect was players giving it all for the cause and regardless of the result,  would have sufficed. Finally we didn't have one mark in the game going by my recolation, if we can't win primary possession, it's up hill all the way.

That's very much the way I see things also.

This is what Liam Hayes had to say in last Sunday's Tribune;
In this extract he is  referring to the Mayo team: (The emphasis is mine.)
Their excellent and impressive work-rate through February and March has brought Mayo to this final, and the same level of industry from all of their forwards is central to Mayo claiming the league title, and thereafter doing what they wish with it. Even in the hiccup at home to Dublin, Mayo were the better team and the dominant team throughout the field for long periods, and that defeat did not slow them down very much, if at all. 


Here, he is referring to the Mortimers and Alan Dillon.
The work-rate and self-belief has remained intact from round one right until now. All they have to do now is put the finishing touch to an almost perfect league campaign, and if Aidan O'Shea can put down a marker for the months ahead with an 'eight-out-of-10' or 'nine-out-of-10' performance, then it's likely that Alan Dillon and Trevor and Conor Mortimer will also respond today, and ultimately look to close out their careers with a handful of performances in Croke Park that they will be happy to eventually take into retirement with them.
He goes further:
Today, these three Mayo forwards are definitely entering 'The Last-Chance Saloon' and whether they remain there for two or three happy years depends entirely on their own self-belief and personal ambition. They will always be happy to take their lead in a game from young O'Shea but the truth is that these three men have to be true leaders on the field if John O'Mahony is going to get his Mayo team anywhere near an All Ireland title. 
Now, in my eyes anyway, the same applies to all the 'vets that are currently on the panel.
I first became worried about the mental fragility of those players when I saw them in action against Meath in the QF last year.

On the morning of the quarter final against Meath, he wrote something like Mayo were arriving in town to avenge the perceived wrongs of '96, whereas Meath were going out  to win an All Ireland Quarter Final.
If I remember rightly, the hopes were pinned that day  on Aiden O'Shea blossoming into another Kieran Donaghy. It was also the day I began to feel that all the blame shouldn't be placed on John O'Mahony.
Maybe it's just me, but Croke Park on big days holds too many traumatic memories for most of the lads who played there in '04 and '06.

[spuds]

Not the point I was making. Talented players show their mettle in other ways.  Not by throwing away point chance after point chance when only 5 behind and standing down.

point lost on me o malley a bad example just look what hisn man scored from play sunday mettle or no mettle

[moysider]

Not the point I was making. Talented players show their mettle in other ways.  Not by throwing away point chance after point chance when only 5 behind and standing down.

point lost on me o malley a bad example just look what hisn man scored from play sunday mettle or no mettle

I doubt there is a corner back anywhere that would have done any better with the silver service Goulding got all day long. The floodgates had opened when he got most of them.
Likes of Trevor flittering ball after ball away before we settled. Parsons and McGarrity obsessed with trying to catch clean against stronger men who were happy to break ball to colleagues.  They are 2 more pertinent reasons why we collapsed the last day Than a Cork corner forward knocking over a few points when drip fed ball from a dominant middle third.

  For me one of the most depressing things I ve seen in Mayo displays in recent years is the trying for the clean catch. If one of our lads makes 2 good catches he gets 8/10 in the locals even though the other 8 was broken away from him and gobbled up by support like last Sunday. Good midfielders prevent the opposition from getting the ball without playing  for the spectacular. Forget about marking the ball. Dirty ball is as important as a nice clean catch. You can bet Tyrone wont be bothered about catching marks this summer. But the opposition will catch **** all against them either.

[moysider]

As Lar as pointed out it wasn't the lesser experienced lads who lost their way on Sunday, it was the senior players who in the main have played in Croke park on average once a year since their senior careers started and most played there at minor level. Surely, these lads can change a gameplan if they can see things are not working out, like with the half forward line in the first half,  they must have the experience and confidence in their own decision making, to do this on the field. If they are waiting for the manager to point these things out to them, well we really are goosed. The will to win has to superceed everything else and it seemed it was lacking on Sunday, which going on previous games was a suprise. Some players relish these big occasions and the big stage and some go and hide. This trait can not be trained or coached by managers. We have in my opinion, been lacking leaders on the pitch for a while now, leadership shown by the like Benny Coulter and Mc Donnell from the first game. We need to also develop a bit of a harder edge, we were turned over in the tackle way too easily and it was impossible to count how many times the player in possesion was isolated under the Cusack stand during the game. As for our expectations going into the game, the least we could expect was players giving it all for the cause and regardless of the result,  would have sufficed. Finally we didn't have one mark in the game going by my recolation, if we can't win primary possession, it's up hill all the way.

That's very much the way I see things also.

This is what Liam Hayes had to say in last Sunday's Tribune;
In this extract he is  referring to the Mayo team: (The emphasis is mine.)
Their excellent and impressive work-rate through February and March has brought Mayo to this final, and the same level of industry from all of their forwards is central to Mayo claiming the league title, and thereafter doing what they wish with it. Even in the hiccup at home to Dublin, Mayo were the better team and the dominant team throughout the field for long periods, and that defeat did not slow them down very much, if at all. 


Here, he is referring to the Mortimers and Alan Dillon.
The work-rate and self-belief has remained intact from round one right until now. All they have to do now is put the finishing touch to an almost perfect league campaign, and if Aidan O'Shea can put down a marker for the months ahead with an 'eight-out-of-10' or 'nine-out-of-10' performance, then it's likely that Alan Dillon and Trevor and Conor Mortimer will also respond today, and ultimately look to close out their careers with a handful of performances in Croke Park that they will be happy to eventually take into retirement with them.
He goes further:
Today, these three Mayo forwards are definitely entering 'The Last-Chance Saloon' and whether they remain there for two or three happy years depends entirely on their own self-belief and personal ambition. They will always be happy to take their lead in a game from young O'Shea but the truth is that these three men have to be true leaders on the field if John O'Mahony is going to get his Mayo team anywhere near an All Ireland title. 
Now, in my eyes anyway, the same applies to all the 'vets that are currently on the panel.
I first became worried about the mental fragility of those players when I saw them in action against Meath in the QF last year.

On the morning of the quarter final against Meath, he wrote something like Mayo were arriving in town to avenge the perceived wrongs of '96, whereas Meath were going out  to win an All Ireland Quarter Final.
If I remember rightly, the hopes were pinned that day  on Aiden O'Shea blossoming into another Kieran Donaghy. It was also the day I began to feel that all the blame shouldn't be placed on John O'Mahony.
Maybe it's just me, but Croke Park on big days holds too many traumatic memories for most of the lads who played there in '04 and '06.

I'm sure it's not you just you Lar but I dont believe in it for a second. If that were the case we might as well get rid of everybody that played against Meath last August and Cork last Sunday as well. They were fairly traumitised as well I know.
Look, no player gets to the standard these lads play at without both a physical and mental toughness. These lads are not teenage girls with spots reluctant to go to the debs.
Now here's the thing. I posted already that I wasn't surprised by anything that happened last Sunday. How could anybody be? Most Mayo players played to type. Those that stank the place out have been making the same mistakes for some time. And they have been doing it in McHale Park too. It s not a Croke Park thing. As I ve said just above, Trevor hoofing aimless ball ( in McHale Park alone this Spring Trevor wasted territorial possession where a bit of composure would have put others in for handy points, and a couple of goals - of course these things don t get mentioned when we win), Parsons being lackadaisical and getting his pocket picked (that has happened outside Croke Park as well), midfield jumpers naively trying to catch every ball (remember Kevin Hughes breaking every kickout from Ronan last year in Castlebar, but Ronan would still be going for the clean one every time if they were there yet). Aidan O Sé had a poor enough league but I would not be harsh on him. The usual soft explanation was lack of confidance. The real reason was lack of guidance and coaching. It is no coincidence that our best performers last Sunday were the lads who were steadiest all league. Barrett. SOS. McL.
Usually in the league and against teams that are a lot poorer than us these things dont hurt because the opposition cant keep the ball themselves. But we bring this stuff into serious games in Croke park and carnage can be the only outcome. Psychology wont solve what are basic basic footballing failings. I m getting annoyed now but somebody needs to put an end to piseogs fairly quick. Instead of trying to brainwash players about Croke Park try and COACH BAD HABITS OUT OF THEM. Or get rid. This management had no conscience getting rid of others with bad habits ( had to get that dig in). Because if Trevor and Parsons dont stop doing what they re doing, they and we are all wasting our time. And probably end up feeling let down themselves. Now this may sound callous but a way of improving the last day would be to review the tape and drop the lads that made the most mistakes. The proviso is of course that their replacements would make less. No guarantee of that. But something must be done instead of hiring shaman. It s a football, not a spiritual problem. Now I m not blaming Trevor for our defeat the last day. I ve posted before how when he does crazy things the team melts. Looking back at my texts last Sunday I sent 'our captain far too wild. He s like a 16th man for Cork'. I sent that at 16:34 and I could have sent it a lot earlier. And f*** it, I like Trevor and its hard to even consider dropping him. I actually think that he has been let down by it all. Great attitude and talent but every manager he ever had, probably just told him to go out and 'unleash hell'.  He still plays like a kid. He should not be happy about this. He deserved better.
But this management cant hide away from the fact that talking wont solve anything. If they cant knock the silly stuff out of these lads before the Championship it s going to be more of the same. And let nobody say its about form. This is stuff that is endemic in players games at this stage but can still be addressed if anybody has the will and gets somebody in that knows what they re doing. And if players cant see what they re doing wrong and correct it then.... they have to be dropped. FFS our best 3 players the last day were novices at this level.

[rosnarun]

very easy blame trevor who tries to do too much , no pont at the age of 30 to expect him to change very much.
I though A O sé  Was excellent on sunday won every ball that cam near him despite cork  sending on a man marker to 'do a job' on him its only because of luck we did not have a serious incident in the 1st half when O sullivan pushed him into the post/side netting .
I actually having watched the game a few times now  believe there is not nearly as much as we think between these 2 sides. mayo had several potentiall game chageing goal chances denied in the first half
but the 1st thing we need to do is grow up accept defeat as a normal part of sport and stop believing we have a terminal disease and are cursed from birth