Author Topic: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"  (Read 5698 times)

Tatler Jack

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Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2010, 12:13:50 PM »
Quote
Seán Óg de Paor and Kevin Walsh have both pointed out how important beating Mayo in Castlebar in May 1998 was to them in winning the All-Ireland that summer.

Hope they also pointed out how important Seamus Prior was to them in Tuam in the CF drawn game!!!!

Sandino

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Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2010, 12:19:15 PM »
I think each squad writes its own destiny and most players can get over a defeat, even a painful one. Tyrone suffered many dissapointments over the years before the breakthrough. Letting go a massive lead against Kerry, Dublin by a disputed point, assault by Meath it seemed it would never happen. But their day did come! So with the right leadership any team with committment and skill can turn from being losers into winners.
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seafoid

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Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2010, 12:22:08 PM »
If Tipp and Galway were level with 5 minutes to go in an All-Ireland final my money would be on Tipp to squeeze it.  And most of the people in the crowd would expect that too. And the players would. It would take an exceptional Galway team to get over that. The funny thing about Tipp is that they don't have the killer instinct at the highest level. They would still have to defer to the Cats. And they fell to Clare in a very tight match in 1997. And when babs talks about Tipp you know there's something lacking in the actions to back up his fighting words. But it is usually enough to finish off teams of lesser mortals and shaky mental strength.   

In the 2005 final Galway were very close but you knew Cork were going to win it. And that's why Galway hurlers win maybe 1 out of 4 all-Irelands. It has nothing to do with the hurlers.

In Galway's case at least it throws up the odd all-Ireland so it's not as bad as up the road but  the sense of underachievement is very depressing.

The other factor is the lack of patience. If a team loses the whole outfit is often abandoned or else the manager is dropped so you have to start all over again the following year.   Look at how few changes there have been on the Kilkenny team since 2006 and compare to say Galway or Offaly.

   
"you can try and intimidate us, but f**k youse, we're going to win an All-Ireland anyway"

muppet

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Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2010, 12:24:45 PM »
I think each squad writes its own destiny and most players can get over a defeat, even a painful one. Tyrone suffered many dissapointments over the years before the breakthrough. Letting go a massive lead against Kerry, Dublin by a disputed point, assault by Meath it seemed it would never happen. But their day did come! So with the right leadership any team with committment and skill can turn from being losers into winners.

Personally I think it is the Mayo supporters that need sports psychiatrists more than any teams we have put out. All this talk of losers comes mainly from supporters and most of it is retrospective. Sportsmen should only play what is in front of them not behind them.

I want you all to repeat after me..........

Mayo will win Sam in 2010.
MWWSI 2017

mouview

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Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2010, 02:27:29 PM »
If Tipp and Galway were level with 5 minutes to go in an All-Ireland final my money would be on Tipp to squeeze it.  And most of the people in the crowd would expect that too. And the players would. It would take an exceptional Galway team to get over that. The funny thing about Tipp is that they don't have the killer instinct at the highest level. They would still have to defer to the Cats. And they fell to Clare in a very tight match in 1997. And when babs talks about Tipp you know there's something lacking in the actions to back up his fighting words. But it is usually enough to finish off teams of lesser mortals and shaky mental strength.   

In the 2005 final Galway were very close but you knew Cork were going to win it. And that's why Galway hurlers win maybe 1 out of 4 all-Irelands. It has nothing to do with the hurlers.

In Galway's case at least it throws up the odd all-Ireland so it's not as bad as up the road but  the sense of underachievement is very depressing.

The other factor is the lack of patience. If a team loses the whole outfit is often abandoned or else the manager is dropped so you have to start all over again the following year.   Look at how few changes there have been on the Kilkenny team since 2006 and compare to say Galway or Offaly.

 

A lot of what you say is true Seaf, but 'tradition' is another way of saying 'if you have enough players good enough'; see AI final 1988, very close going into the closing stages, but Galway sprung Tony KK, Gerry Burke (from Turlough) and of course Noel Lane, all of who made an impact. In 2005 we had a misfiring Tierney in midfield and Niall Healy at FF, neither of whom could string 2 good games in a row ever. Similarly, our footballers overcame a lot of 'legacy adversity' in '98; they were so good (and so well prepared) that day that they would have beaten anyone, regardless had it been Kildare, Tyrone, Cork, Dublin, Kerry et al. All the narrow, large and heartbreaking defeats throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s mattered not a jot.

Players themselves will know if they are good enough and will gain confidence from it. Imagine being in a dressing room with Hayes, Linnane, Finnerty, Keady, Malone, McInerney, Coleman, Malone, Cooney, Naughton, Lane, McGrath or Ryan  or similarly with McNamara, Mannion, Fahy, Meehan, De Paor, Walsh, Fallon, Donnellan, Clancy,  Joyce, Savage, Finnegan. Defeat or negativity would scarecely enter the head. I guess the trick is to make the players believe they're good enough.

To repeat, good players will triumph over tradition always.

mayogodhelpus@gmail.com

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Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2010, 02:27:38 PM »
I think each squad writes its own destiny and most players can get over a defeat, even a painful one. Tyrone suffered many dissapointments over the years before the breakthrough. Letting go a massive lead against Kerry, Dublin by a disputed point, assault by Meath it seemed it would never happen. But their day did come! So with the right leadership any team with committment and skill can turn from being losers into winners.

Personally I think it is the Mayo supporters that need sports psychiatrists more than any teams we have put out. All this talk of losers comes mainly from supporters and most of it is retrospective. Sportsmen should only play what is in front of them not behind them.

I want you all to repeat after me..........

Mayo will win Sam in 2100

Fixed that for ya  :D
Time to take a more chill-pill approach to life.

seafoid

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Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2010, 03:03:15 PM »


. In 2005 we had a misfiring Tierney in midfield and Niall Healy at FF, neither of whom could string 2 good games in a row ever.

Match practice was another thing Galway hurlers never got much of. Maybe being in Leinster will change that.

[/quote]
 Players themselves will know if they are good enough and will gain confidence from it. Imagine being in a dressing room with Hayes, Linnane, Finnerty, Keady, Malone, McInerney, Coleman, Malone, Cooney, Naughton, Lane, McGrath or Ryan  or similarly with McNamara, Mannion, Fahy, Meehan, De Paor, Walsh, Fallon, Donnellan, Clancy,  Joyce, Savage, Finnegan. Defeat or negativity would scarecely enter the head. I guess the trick is to make the players believe they're good enough. [/quote]

They didn't all fire on the same day. They got plenty of matches. They didn't get dropped after one bad day like many hurlers did. Mannion and Ja would have heard a lot of negative stuff about the footballers pre 95 too. I remember talking to Mannion's sister about it once. She was complaining about all the abuse she would hear at matches. Of course the same people were very proud to be up in the stands when Meath were put to the sword.  ;) 

"you can try and intimidate us, but f**k youse, we're going to win an All-Ireland anyway"

Lar Naparka

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Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2010, 11:27:54 PM »
Gan dabht are bith, a Iolair, tá an fíor- cheart agat.
“Nearly “ nearly brought us places many times but never quite managed to get us there. I would dearly love to think that we should be able to leave the past where it belongs and forget about curses from cranky oul’ priests and the multitude of pisreoga that abound. Unfortunately, all available evidence points in the other direction.
Take the ’96 final.
Six points to the good and 20 minutes to go, we succumbed to the terror of past failure and I’m referring to the team as well as the supporters.
I was in the Nally Stand and those around me who had been in fine voice up to that point suddenly began to get the jitters. Watches began to appear like snuff at a wedding and many otherwise sound people took to staring at their bloody timepieces as if in a trance. As far as I can remember, I found myself doing the same; we couldn’t bear to look at the play on the field any more as we willed the damn hands to circle around faster and faster. I’d imagine Mayo fans everywhere were in the same fix but I couldn’t relax enough to look around.
The team, that had been majestic throughout, synced with their followers and began to panic as Meath grimly began to fight back. When the final whistle sounded, the overwhelming emotion was a sense of relief. Only a county with such an ingrained expectation of failure would feel relieved that they were leaving Croker without having lost while Meath fans were delighted to have survived and felt they had been let out of jail. They were looking forward to the replay and felt confident about the outcome while we were just able to get to the toilets. Many around me did not make it that far and I was damn lucky to find a place at the wall in time myself. Well, I’m saying I made it and I’m sticking to my story!
Logic had nothing to do with it- I doubt very much that Meath, Kerry, Galway and a half dozen other counties would have let such a golden opportunity slip.
I was also at the Galway game that has been mentioned above. I had spent a good deal of time in Willy Joe’s bar the night before and met up with many past players as the night began to rev up.
To a man, they felt Galway would win the next day.
The team just hadn’t the bottle to go at it again after the losses of the two previous years. The training had been put in alright and the ability was still there but the self-doubt had already set in. I found all this hard to believe but when Ciaran’s shot came back off the crossbar as the end approached, I felt the confidence both on and off the field collapsing. It was only a matter then of counting down the time.  Same old bloody story.
Maybe if Mac’s shot had gone in it would had rammed an assload of banbhs into our particular sow but it was the Galway one who was left with a smile on her face instead.
I have been suspecting for some time that O’Mahony is feeling the same about the survivors of ’04 and ’06.  You can only expect a man to go to the well so many times and most of the ‘vets’ can’t be expected to go through it all again. I wish it was otherwise but I think the fear of failure increases in intensity with each passing year. Maybe when he has a team that is unencumbered with the trauma of big time failures, he just might give it a good rattle.
Incidentally, I have been in Swinford too many times as the team bus limped homewards yet again and I certainly didn't  hear anyone one on the streets chanting abuse at the players or management either.

Farrandeelin

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Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2010, 12:08:54 AM »
Anymore, I'm going to be like Fearon, predicting Mayo will win every game under the sun. Actually, more Sligonian if you ask me.
The woman in red has the car parked on the slope.

IolarCoisCuain

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Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2010, 12:13:10 AM »
I suspect you're a literary man Lar. What you write of 1996, and what I remember from the time, makes me think J Alfred Prufrock had some Mayo blood in him:

I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker,
And I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker,
And in short, I was afraid.


I read a quote once from a player on that 1996 team, about soloing the ball with twenty minutes to go and looking up to the scoreboard to see Mayo were six points up. And he thought: I don't believe it. A winning mentality thinks: In ten seconds, Mayo will be seven points up.

And that's the difference.

None of this means that it's set in stone of course, or always has to be. But the evidence is quite clear, it seems to me, that has existed in the past. Ignoring it, as Moran and Morrison tried to do, whistling past the graveyard, didn't work. I hope the sequence can be broken, and I'm not fussy about how. A winning goal going in by accident off some fella's arse is just fine with me. I just want it broken. I don't care how.

Hardy

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Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2010, 08:51:03 AM »
Great thread. Tremendous stuff from Iolar and Lar.

It would seem perverse to let this debate pass without offering my experience as a Meath man, particularly since we have loomed large in the ruminations of the Mayo lads here. Lar is right in his comparison of the attitudes of both sets of fans during and after the 1996 final. We could sense the trepidation of the Mayo fans. But we also had every confidence, even six points down that our team was in it with a decent chance.

We had followed the team of the 86-91 who had pulled many big games out of the fire - Cork 88 x 2, the four games against Dublin in '91, of course and Roscommon '91. Even when we didn't make it over the line (e.g. Down '91), we knew there would be an almighty effort and we wouldn't know the result until the whistle went.

We expected it as standard by '96. But that team was in its infancy and when it grew into itself it brought the winning mentality to a new level. Between '96 and 2001, we got to the stage when we expected to win, or at least save the game, no matter how far behind we were. We KNEW the comeback would happen. Crucially, so did the opposition and you could often see them wilt if we scored two points in a row at eight down or the like. Think of Ollie Murphy breaking Westmeath's hearts on a number of occasions. Outrageous goals conjured out of nothing in injury time. It was powerful medicine and the key point is that the psychology worked in both directions - for us and against the opposition.

Of course, we thought this would last forever. Then came the high point of the destruction of Kerry in 2001, the fatal complacency it induced, however hard we tried to resist it (psychology again) and the utter collapse against Galway. That was possibly the most depressing game of the entire era. The usual script was lost. No comeback - just falling further and further behind. We were looking at each other. This doesn't happen. We don't know how to handle it.

We didn't know then that that was the end of the era. Nobody now fears a Meath comeback. But the folk memory is still there and we saw a glimpse of it in last year's semi final. And the folk memory is strong enough that if/when we assemble a team capable of challenging for honours, it will still be a powerful factor in Croke Park in a big game, even between two sets of players who will only have read about the eighties and nineties.
I studied deeply in the philosophies and religions, but cheerfulness kept breaking through - L.Cohen

seafoid

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Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2010, 10:21:53 AM »

And the folk memory is strong enough that if/when we assemble a team capable of challenging for honours, it will still be a powerful factor in Croke Park in a big game, even between two sets of players who will only have read about the eighties and nineties.
[/quote]

It's preserved somewhere in the county mortas cine and once the players come along as they always do, eventually, and the county is once again in Croke Park with 5 minutes left in a tight match it comes back. Down have the same thing. Even Kerry don't faze them when they get their mojo right.   
"you can try and intimidate us, but f**k youse, we're going to win an All-Ireland anyway"

stephenite

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Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2010, 12:07:55 PM »

And the folk memory is strong enough that if/when we assemble a team capable of challenging for honours, it will still be a powerful factor in Croke Park in a big game, even between two sets of players who will only have read about the eighties and nineties.

It's preserved somewhere in the county mortas cine and once the players come along as they always do, eventually, and the county is once again in Croke Park with 5 minutes left in a tight match it comes back. Down have the same thing. Even Kerry don't faze them when they get their mojo right.
[/quote]

How long does it stay there though? Is it too long for Mayo? Maybe we should just accept this and give up, move on to something else.

I don't think the players buy into it too much - I'd be interested to know who the player in '96 was that Iorlar mentioned above. If a Mayo player was soloing the ball and looking at the scoreboard of course he's going to get the heebie-jeebies-how does he have the time to solo the ball and look at the scoreboard anyway? Especially in '96!

There is the obvious issue of players that have been there before in their careers, and mentally that is going to have an affect and rub of on players but I'm not convinced about Meath players today mentally drawing on players strengths or scenarios from 20 years earlier. Or that when Down come back to the big day they'll have it too, that it's in them

Or maybe I'm ignorant about the whole thing.

deiseach

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Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2010, 12:23:50 PM »
If players from top counties can see further because they are standing on the shoulders of giants, players from weak counties have to clamber over the bodies of the dead. I remember the feeling when I finally got to see a Waterford team run out at a senior All-Ireland final. Not to put too fine a point on it I had to choke back the tears, and my siblings scattered around Croke Park all confessed afterwards to not having a dry eye between us. If we felt that way, can you imagine how the players on the pitch felt, faced with 50,000 people blubbing like babies over their actions? No wonder they got massacred. It's going to be very hard to overcome that sense of inferiority.

But feck it, we'll have fun trying

seafoid

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Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2010, 01:00:39 PM »
If we felt that way, can you imagine how the players on the pitch felt, faced with 50,000 people blubbing like babies over their actions? No wonder they got massacred. It's going to be very hard to overcome that sense of inferiority.

Kilkenny hurlers are fine stickmen and very much at home in Croke Park and used to winning but apart from d’accent dey are de same as people from Waterford.  It sounds like Waterford urgently needs to set up a programme of house swaps with Kilkenny so that the young hurlers of the county are exposed to the cats from a young age and thus unfazable when they meet them in big matches in Croke Park. 
"you can try and intimidate us, but f**k youse, we're going to win an All-Ireland anyway"