Author Topic: The Official Tennis Thread  (Read 50432 times)

gallsman

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Re: The Official Tennis Thread
« Reply #690 on: September 09, 2019, 10:32:16 PM »
If Medvedev can sustain or build up this year's summer hard court form then he will win a hard court slam next year for sure.

I think Djokovic might now struggle to reach 20, the next gen will all be taking confidence from Medvedev and they will have the belief that they are as good or better than them. The problem for Djokovic is that they are all at their best on hard courts, guys like Zverev, Tsitsipas, Rublev, Khachanov, FAA and Shapovalov all have a game made for hard courts and that's Djokovic's bread and butter.

I think the changing of guard is now going to come a lot sooner than people think and I think we'll have a next gen slam champion for sure next season.

I think Nadal will just do enough (injury permitting) to oust Federer in slam titles and rightfully take his place as the GOAT. He still has no peers on clay and I think if he gets the next two years of play without injuries or setbacks he will pick up one or two RG. I think last night might be his last non-clay slam though.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Thats like saying Mick Lyons was a better footballer than Maurice Fitzgerald

Only for a moron who doesn't understand tennis. Oh wait.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

Angelo

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Re: The Official Tennis Thread
« Reply #691 on: September 09, 2019, 10:37:41 PM »
If Medvedev can sustain or build up this year's summer hard court form then he will win a hard court slam next year for sure.

I think Djokovic might now struggle to reach 20, the next gen will all be taking confidence from Medvedev and they will have the belief that they are as good or better than them. The problem for Djokovic is that they are all at their best on hard courts, guys like Zverev, Tsitsipas, Rublev, Khachanov, FAA and Shapovalov all have a game made for hard courts and that's Djokovic's bread and butter.

I think the changing of guard is now going to come a lot sooner than people think and I think we'll have a next gen slam champion for sure next season.

I think Nadal will just do enough (injury permitting) to oust Federer in slam titles and rightfully take his place as the GOAT. He still has no peers on clay and I think if he gets the next two years of play without injuries or setbacks he will pick up one or two RG. I think last night might be his last non-clay slam though.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Thats like saying Mick Lyons was a better footballer than Maurice Fitzgerald

There's no real question between Nadal and Federer. Nadal is miles ahead. The real debate is between Nadal and Djokovic.

Nadal has a superior head to head over Federer and Djokovic at slams.

Federer made hay when the competition was weak. He won 12 of his 20 slams between 2003-07. That was before Nadal and Djokovic established themselves, he was up against the likes of Hewitt, Roddick, Nalbandian, Davydenko and Safin for slams. All these guys were busted flushes in their mid 20s, they struggled to compete with the likes of Murray, Wawrinka, Tsonga, Berdych, Del Potro, Cilic, Feeder etc nevermind Nadal and Djokovic and this was Federer's main competition then.

Look at the early finals Federer had - Philippoussis, Safin, Roddick, Hewitt, a mid 30s Agassi, a teenage Nadal, Gonzalez.

It's a bit like when Gooch would rip it up in an All Ireland final against poor Cork and Mayo teams but struggle in the big tests.

Federer's record is padded by having a 5 year head start on Nadal and Djokovic. There's no way he would have got to 20 had he came through at the same time. The question for no 1 remains between Nadal and Djokovic but Federer is no 3.

omaghjoe

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Re: The Official Tennis Thread
« Reply #692 on: September 09, 2019, 10:49:23 PM »
If Medvedev can sustain or build up this year's summer hard court form then he will win a hard court slam next year for sure.

I think Djokovic might now struggle to reach 20, the next gen will all be taking confidence from Medvedev and they will have the belief that they are as good or better than them. The problem for Djokovic is that they are all at their best on hard courts, guys like Zverev, Tsitsipas, Rublev, Khachanov, FAA and Shapovalov all have a game made for hard courts and that's Djokovic's bread and butter.

I think the changing of guard is now going to come a lot sooner than people think and I think we'll have a next gen slam champion for sure next season.

I think Nadal will just do enough (injury permitting) to oust Federer in slam titles and rightfully take his place as the GOAT. He still has no peers on clay and I think if he gets the next two years of play without injuries or setbacks he will pick up one or two RG. I think last night might be his last non-clay slam though.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Thats like saying Mick Lyons was a better footballer than Maurice Fitzgerald

There's no real question between Nadal and Federer. Nadal is miles ahead. The real debate is between Nadal and Djokovic.

Nadal has a superior head to head over Federer and Djokovic at slams.

Federer made hay when the competition was weak. He won 12 of his 20 slams between 2003-07. That was before Nadal and Djokovic established themselves, he was up against the likes of Hewitt, Roddick, Nalbandian, Davydenko and Safin for slams. All these guys were busted flushes in their mid 20s, they struggled to compete with the likes of Murray, Wawrinka, Tsonga, Berdych, Del Potro, Cilic, Feeder etc nevermind Nadal and Djokovic and this was Federer's main competition then.

Look at the early finals Federer had - Philippoussis, Safin, Roddick, Hewitt, a mid 30s Agassi, a teenage Nadal, Gonzalez.

It's a bit like when Gooch would rip it up in an All Ireland final against poor Cork and Mayo teams but struggle in the big tests.

Federer's record is padded by having a 5 year head start on Nadal and Djokovic. There's no way he would have got to 20 had he came through at the same time. The question for no 1 remains between Nadal and Djokovic but Federer is no 3.

Thats all fine and well but he's still a bull in a China shop

Angelo

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Re: The Official Tennis Thread
« Reply #693 on: September 09, 2019, 11:18:45 PM »
If Medvedev can sustain or build up this year's summer hard court form then he will win a hard court slam next year for sure.

I think Djokovic might now struggle to reach 20, the next gen will all be taking confidence from Medvedev and they will have the belief that they are as good or better than them. The problem for Djokovic is that they are all at their best on hard courts, guys like Zverev, Tsitsipas, Rublev, Khachanov, FAA and Shapovalov all have a game made for hard courts and that's Djokovic's bread and butter.

I think the changing of guard is now going to come a lot sooner than people think and I think we'll have a next gen slam champion for sure next season.

I think Nadal will just do enough (injury permitting) to oust Federer in slam titles and rightfully take his place as the GOAT. He still has no peers on clay and I think if he gets the next two years of play without injuries or setbacks he will pick up one or two RG. I think last night might be his last non-clay slam though.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Thats like saying Mick Lyons was a better footballer than Maurice Fitzgerald

There's no real question between Nadal and Federer. Nadal is miles ahead. The real debate is between Nadal and Djokovic.

Nadal has a superior head to head over Federer and Djokovic at slams.

Federer made hay when the competition was weak. He won 12 of his 20 slams between 2003-07. That was before Nadal and Djokovic established themselves, he was up against the likes of Hewitt, Roddick, Nalbandian, Davydenko and Safin for slams. All these guys were busted flushes in their mid 20s, they struggled to compete with the likes of Murray, Wawrinka, Tsonga, Berdych, Del Potro, Cilic, Feeder etc nevermind Nadal and Djokovic and this was Federer's main competition then.

Look at the early finals Federer had - Philippoussis, Safin, Roddick, Hewitt, a mid 30s Agassi, a teenage Nadal, Gonzalez.

It's a bit like when Gooch would rip it up in an All Ireland final against poor Cork and Mayo teams but struggle in the big tests.

Federer's record is padded by having a 5 year head start on Nadal and Djokovic. There's no way he would have got to 20 had he came through at the same time. The question for no 1 remains between Nadal and Djokovic but Federer is no 3.

Thats all fine and well but he's still a bull in a China shop

Clearly you don't watch him much.

A bull in a china shop would not dominate clay court tennis, you actually need to be able to craft and create shots rather than bludgeon the ball past your opponents and serve heavy like hard and grass courts require.

omaghjoe

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Re: The Official Tennis Thread
« Reply #694 on: September 09, 2019, 11:24:58 PM »
If Medvedev can sustain or build up this year's summer hard court form then he will win a hard court slam next year for sure.

I think Djokovic might now struggle to reach 20, the next gen will all be taking confidence from Medvedev and they will have the belief that they are as good or better than them. The problem for Djokovic is that they are all at their best on hard courts, guys like Zverev, Tsitsipas, Rublev, Khachanov, FAA and Shapovalov all have a game made for hard courts and that's Djokovic's bread and butter.

I think the changing of guard is now going to come a lot sooner than people think and I think we'll have a next gen slam champion for sure next season.

I think Nadal will just do enough (injury permitting) to oust Federer in slam titles and rightfully take his place as the GOAT. He still has no peers on clay and I think if he gets the next two years of play without injuries or setbacks he will pick up one or two RG. I think last night might be his last non-clay slam though.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Thats like saying Mick Lyons was a better footballer than Maurice Fitzgerald

There's no real question between Nadal and Federer. Nadal is miles ahead. The real debate is between Nadal and Djokovic.

Nadal has a superior head to head over Federer and Djokovic at slams.

Federer made hay when the competition was weak. He won 12 of his 20 slams between 2003-07. That was before Nadal and Djokovic established themselves, he was up against the likes of Hewitt, Roddick, Nalbandian, Davydenko and Safin for slams. All these guys were busted flushes in their mid 20s, they struggled to compete with the likes of Murray, Wawrinka, Tsonga, Berdych, Del Potro, Cilic, Feeder etc nevermind Nadal and Djokovic and this was Federer's main competition then.

Look at the early finals Federer had - Philippoussis, Safin, Roddick, Hewitt, a mid 30s Agassi, a teenage Nadal, Gonzalez.

It's a bit like when Gooch would rip it up in an All Ireland final against poor Cork and Mayo teams but struggle in the big tests.

Federer's record is padded by having a 5 year head start on Nadal and Djokovic. There's no way he would have got to 20 had he came through at the same time. The question for no 1 remains between Nadal and Djokovic but Federer is no 3.

Thats all fine and well but he's still a bull in a China shop

Clearly you don't watch him much.

A bull in a china shop would not dominate clay court tennis, you actually need to be able to craft and create shots rather than bludgeon the ball past your opponents and serve heavy like hard and grass courts require.

You clearly don't know finesse when you see it. Fed is obviously more technically gifted and naturally talented than either he just doesnt have the same physical attributes.

mouview

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Re: The Official Tennis Thread
« Reply #695 on: September 09, 2019, 11:42:43 PM »
If Medvedev can sustain or build up this year's summer hard court form then he will win a hard court slam next year for sure.

I think Djokovic might now struggle to reach 20, the next gen will all be taking confidence from Medvedev and they will have the belief that they are as good or better than them. The problem for Djokovic is that they are all at their best on hard courts, guys like Zverev, Tsitsipas, Rublev, Khachanov, FAA and Shapovalov all have a game made for hard courts and that's Djokovic's bread and butter.

I think the changing of guard is now going to come a lot sooner than people think and I think we'll have a next gen slam champion for sure next season.

I think Nadal will just do enough (injury permitting) to oust Federer in slam titles and rightfully take his place as the GOAT. He still has no peers on clay and I think if he gets the next two years of play without injuries or setbacks he will pick up one or two RG. I think last night might be his last non-clay slam though.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Thats like saying Mick Lyons was a better footballer than Maurice Fitzgerald

There's no real question between Nadal and Federer. Nadal is miles ahead. The real debate is between Nadal and Djokovic.

Nadal has a superior head to head over Federer and Djokovic at slams.

Federer made hay when the competition was weak. He won 12 of his 20 slams between 2003-07. That was before Nadal and Djokovic established themselves, he was up against the likes of Hewitt, Roddick, Nalbandian, Davydenko and Safin for slams. All these guys were busted flushes in their mid 20s, they struggled to compete with the likes of Murray, Wawrinka, Tsonga, Berdych, Del Potro, Cilic, Feeder etc nevermind Nadal and Djokovic and this was Federer's main competition then.

Look at the early finals Federer had - Philippoussis, Safin, Roddick, Hewitt, a mid 30s Agassi, a teenage Nadal, Gonzalez.

It's a bit like when Gooch would rip it up in an All Ireland final against poor Cork and Mayo teams but struggle in the big tests.

Federer's record is padded by having a 5 year head start on Nadal and Djokovic. There's no way he would have got to 20 had he came through at the same time. The question for no 1 remains between Nadal and Djokovic but Federer is no 3.

Umm.. Nadal couldn't get the better of Fed at Wimbledon this year, in spite of the advantage of years. I do think Nadal will surpass Fed because of his superiority on clay, but I cannot agree that he's a better player, and I think the vast majority would agree with this. 

Angelo

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Re: The Official Tennis Thread
« Reply #696 on: September 09, 2019, 11:58:00 PM »
If Medvedev can sustain or build up this year's summer hard court form then he will win a hard court slam next year for sure.

I think Djokovic might now struggle to reach 20, the next gen will all be taking confidence from Medvedev and they will have the belief that they are as good or better than them. The problem for Djokovic is that they are all at their best on hard courts, guys like Zverev, Tsitsipas, Rublev, Khachanov, FAA and Shapovalov all have a game made for hard courts and that's Djokovic's bread and butter.

I think the changing of guard is now going to come a lot sooner than people think and I think we'll have a next gen slam champion for sure next season.

I think Nadal will just do enough (injury permitting) to oust Federer in slam titles and rightfully take his place as the GOAT. He still has no peers on clay and I think if he gets the next two years of play without injuries or setbacks he will pick up one or two RG. I think last night might be his last non-clay slam though.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Thats like saying Mick Lyons was a better footballer than Maurice Fitzgerald

There's no real question between Nadal and Federer. Nadal is miles ahead. The real debate is between Nadal and Djokovic.

Nadal has a superior head to head over Federer and Djokovic at slams.

Federer made hay when the competition was weak. He won 12 of his 20 slams between 2003-07. That was before Nadal and Djokovic established themselves, he was up against the likes of Hewitt, Roddick, Nalbandian, Davydenko and Safin for slams. All these guys were busted flushes in their mid 20s, they struggled to compete with the likes of Murray, Wawrinka, Tsonga, Berdych, Del Potro, Cilic, Feeder etc nevermind Nadal and Djokovic and this was Federer's main competition then.

Look at the early finals Federer had - Philippoussis, Safin, Roddick, Hewitt, a mid 30s Agassi, a teenage Nadal, Gonzalez.

It's a bit like when Gooch would rip it up in an All Ireland final against poor Cork and Mayo teams but struggle in the big tests.

Federer's record is padded by having a 5 year head start on Nadal and Djokovic. There's no way he would have got to 20 had he came through at the same time. The question for no 1 remains between Nadal and Djokovic but Federer is no 3.

Umm.. Nadal couldn't get the better of Fed at Wimbledon this year, in spite of the advantage of years. I do think Nadal will surpass Fed because of his superiority on clay, but I cannot agree that he's a better player, and I think the vast majority would agree with this.

He will pass Federer because he's been a better player than him. 12 of Federer's slams came between 03-07, look at his main challengers, look at how they survived the influx of challengers in the subsequent years.

5 US Opens for Federer 04-08, not one since then. Why? Djokovic and Nadal. He couldn't compete with them. I actually think Nadal us further off his peak years now than Federer is. Nadal is the one who has had to adapt his game, the way he plays now is completely different to the Nadal of old, he moves less, he serves heavier and he shortens the points. Up until last night's final, his longest game this year had been 3 hrs and 15 minutes this year.

People might prefer Federer's style, but Nadal is a much more complete all rounder and I don't think anyone can  find solutions quite like Nadal can. The stats don't lie, even with all the factors against Nadal, injuries, tougher era, slam season discriminating against clay courters, he still looks like he may well surpass Federer in spite of all the hurdles.

Nadal has adapted and been successful on all surfaces. Why hasn't Federer been able to make a dent on clay?

Angelo

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Re: The Official Tennis Thread
« Reply #697 on: September 10, 2019, 12:06:53 AM »
If Medvedev can sustain or build up this year's summer hard court form then he will win a hard court slam next year for sure.

I think Djokovic might now struggle to reach 20, the next gen will all be taking confidence from Medvedev and they will have the belief that they are as good or better than them. The problem for Djokovic is that they are all at their best on hard courts, guys like Zverev, Tsitsipas, Rublev, Khachanov, FAA and Shapovalov all have a game made for hard courts and that's Djokovic's bread and butter.

I think the changing of guard is now going to come a lot sooner than people think and I think we'll have a next gen slam champion for sure next season.

I think Nadal will just do enough (injury permitting) to oust Federer in slam titles and rightfully take his place as the GOAT. He still has no peers on clay and I think if he gets the next two years of play without injuries or setbacks he will pick up one or two RG. I think last night might be his last non-clay slam though.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Thats like saying Mick Lyons was a better footballer than Maurice Fitzgerald

There's no real question between Nadal and Federer. Nadal is miles ahead. The real debate is between Nadal and Djokovic.

Nadal has a superior head to head over Federer and Djokovic at slams.

Federer made hay when the competition was weak. He won 12 of his 20 slams between 2003-07. That was before Nadal and Djokovic established themselves, he was up against the likes of Hewitt, Roddick, Nalbandian, Davydenko and Safin for slams. All these guys were busted flushes in their mid 20s, they struggled to compete with the likes of Murray, Wawrinka, Tsonga, Berdych, Del Potro, Cilic, Feeder etc nevermind Nadal and Djokovic and this was Federer's main competition then.

Look at the early finals Federer had - Philippoussis, Safin, Roddick, Hewitt, a mid 30s Agassi, a teenage Nadal, Gonzalez.

It's a bit like when Gooch would rip it up in an All Ireland final against poor Cork and Mayo teams but struggle in the big tests.

Federer's record is padded by having a 5 year head start on Nadal and Djokovic. There's no way he would have got to 20 had he came through at the same time. The question for no 1 remains between Nadal and Djokovic but Federer is no 3.

Thats all fine and well but he's still a bull in a China shop

Clearly you don't watch him much.

A bull in a china shop would not dominate clay court tennis, you actually need to be able to craft and create shots rather than bludgeon the ball past your opponents and serve heavy like hard and grass courts require.

You clearly don't know finesse when you see it. Fed is obviously more technically gifted and naturally talented than either he just doesnt have the same physical attributes.

Finesse is aesthetic. He doesn't have the same physical attributes but neither does he have the same craft and problem solving ability that Nadal has.

omaghjoe

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Re: The Official Tennis Thread
« Reply #698 on: September 10, 2019, 10:18:35 PM »
If Medvedev can sustain or build up this year's summer hard court form then he will win a hard court slam next year for sure.

I think Djokovic might now struggle to reach 20, the next gen will all be taking confidence from Medvedev and they will have the belief that they are as good or better than them. The problem for Djokovic is that they are all at their best on hard courts, guys like Zverev, Tsitsipas, Rublev, Khachanov, FAA and Shapovalov all have a game made for hard courts and that's Djokovic's bread and butter.

I think the changing of guard is now going to come a lot sooner than people think and I think we'll have a next gen slam champion for sure next season.

I think Nadal will just do enough (injury permitting) to oust Federer in slam titles and rightfully take his place as the GOAT. He still has no peers on clay and I think if he gets the next two years of play without injuries or setbacks he will pick up one or two RG. I think last night might be his last non-clay slam though.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Thats like saying Mick Lyons was a better footballer than Maurice Fitzgerald

There's no real question between Nadal and Federer. Nadal is miles ahead. The real debate is between Nadal and Djokovic.

Nadal has a superior head to head over Federer and Djokovic at slams.

Federer made hay when the competition was weak. He won 12 of his 20 slams between 2003-07. That was before Nadal and Djokovic established themselves, he was up against the likes of Hewitt, Roddick, Nalbandian, Davydenko and Safin for slams. All these guys were busted flushes in their mid 20s, they struggled to compete with the likes of Murray, Wawrinka, Tsonga, Berdych, Del Potro, Cilic, Feeder etc nevermind Nadal and Djokovic and this was Federer's main competition then.

Look at the early finals Federer had - Philippoussis, Safin, Roddick, Hewitt, a mid 30s Agassi, a teenage Nadal, Gonzalez.

It's a bit like when Gooch would rip it up in an All Ireland final against poor Cork and Mayo teams but struggle in the big tests.

Federer's record is padded by having a 5 year head start on Nadal and Djokovic. There's no way he would have got to 20 had he came through at the same time. The question for no 1 remains between Nadal and Djokovic but Federer is no 3.

Thats all fine and well but he's still a bull in a China shop

Clearly you don't watch him much.

A bull in a china shop would not dominate clay court tennis, you actually need to be able to craft and create shots rather than bludgeon the ball past your opponents and serve heavy like hard and grass courts require.

You clearly don't know finesse when you see it. Fed is obviously more technically gifted and naturally talented than either he just doesnt have the same physical attributes.

Finesse is aesthetic. He doesn't have the same physical attributes but neither does he have the same craft and problem solving ability that Nadal has.

Problem solving?? Didnt think Maths ability came into it but each to their own. When you are having a GOAT of all time debate it is entirely subjective.

Anyway Nadal has 12 Roland Garros and you could also say they are of lesser value as clay only takes up a portion of the season this gives more incentive and time for clay specialists to adapt to hard court and grass and the reverse for the hard/grass court specialists.
It also means the most talented players will always concentrate on the harder surfaces leading to overall less competitive clay competitions. So its safe to say Nadal has had a less competitive run at Roland Garros than Federer had in the early part of his career.
Also when Nadal was injured Fed and Djoikvic duly picked up their Roland Garros titles so its save to say they can play clay.

It could also be said that Fed in the early part of his career blew away the opposition by raising the bar to a different level, he brought shots that no one had ever seen before. Its safe to say he blew the competition out of the water and they couldnt adapt I would say because their games were too entrenched to adapt and prob too psychologically damaged fro the trimmings he gave them. The new crop coming behind them had a target and example to aim at (Fed) thus their playing style could be adapted as it was less embedded and they didn't have the mental baggage as being at the top and being knocked off their perch.
I dont buy for a minute that the competition was overly weak back then, fair enough there was no one else compared to Nadal and Djokivic, and while Roddick was limited he remained competitive for a long time, Hewitt was decent, and Safin certainly I would put alongside any of the 2nd tier of this era esp on hard courts, tho he did have a dubious temperament.

You can ream off all the stats you want but you can say any of them are skewed: Nadals advantage on clay, Fed to old, Nadal injured, Djokvic too young.....
At the end of the day I do like Feds style more, he has a very natural style always makes things look easy like anyone could do it, the single handed backhand at that level is a joy to behold. Nadal and Djokvic always look like they are playing at the limits of their skill level and their physical prowess is taking over.

gallsman

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Re: The Official Tennis Thread
« Reply #699 on: September 10, 2019, 11:10:05 PM »
Maths ability? What are you blathering on about now?

Grass takes up less of the season than clay. Of course Federer and Djokovic can play on clay. They're exceptional all surface players. The point is that given how exceptional they are, it only serves to highlight how truly remarkable Nadal's 12 titles at RG are.

Federer's one handed backhand is mythologised by people who clearly don't watch much tennis. It is a pretty looking shot that is repeatedly targeted by all top players because its incredibly weak.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

Angelo

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Re: The Official Tennis Thread
« Reply #700 on: September 11, 2019, 07:56:53 AM »
If Medvedev can sustain or build up this year's summer hard court form then he will win a hard court slam next year for sure.

I think Djokovic might now struggle to reach 20, the next gen will all be taking confidence from Medvedev and they will have the belief that they are as good or better than them. The problem for Djokovic is that they are all at their best on hard courts, guys like Zverev, Tsitsipas, Rublev, Khachanov, FAA and Shapovalov all have a game made for hard courts and that's Djokovic's bread and butter.

I think the changing of guard is now going to come a lot sooner than people think and I think we'll have a next gen slam champion for sure next season.

I think Nadal will just do enough (injury permitting) to oust Federer in slam titles and rightfully take his place as the GOAT. He still has no peers on clay and I think if he gets the next two years of play without injuries or setbacks he will pick up one or two RG. I think last night might be his last non-clay slam though.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Thats like saying Mick Lyons was a better footballer than Maurice Fitzgerald

There's no real question between Nadal and Federer. Nadal is miles ahead. The real debate is between Nadal and Djokovic.

Nadal has a superior head to head over Federer and Djokovic at slams.

Federer made hay when the competition was weak. He won 12 of his 20 slams between 2003-07. That was before Nadal and Djokovic established themselves, he was up against the likes of Hewitt, Roddick, Nalbandian, Davydenko and Safin for slams. All these guys were busted flushes in their mid 20s, they struggled to compete with the likes of Murray, Wawrinka, Tsonga, Berdych, Del Potro, Cilic, Feeder etc nevermind Nadal and Djokovic and this was Federer's main competition then.

Look at the early finals Federer had - Philippoussis, Safin, Roddick, Hewitt, a mid 30s Agassi, a teenage Nadal, Gonzalez.

It's a bit like when Gooch would rip it up in an All Ireland final against poor Cork and Mayo teams but struggle in the big tests.

Federer's record is padded by having a 5 year head start on Nadal and Djokovic. There's no way he would have got to 20 had he came through at the same time. The question for no 1 remains between Nadal and Djokovic but Federer is no 3.

Thats all fine and well but he's still a bull in a China shop

Clearly you don't watch him much.

A bull in a china shop would not dominate clay court tennis, you actually need to be able to craft and create shots rather than bludgeon the ball past your opponents and serve heavy like hard and grass courts require.

You clearly don't know finesse when you see it. Fed is obviously more technically gifted and naturally talented than either he just doesnt have the same physical attributes.

Finesse is aesthetic. He doesn't have the same physical attributes but neither does he have the same craft and problem solving ability that Nadal has.

Problem solving?? Didnt think Maths ability came into it but each to their own. When you are having a GOAT of all time debate it is entirely subjective.

Anyway Nadal has 12 Roland Garros and you could also say they are of lesser value as clay only takes up a portion of the season this gives more incentive and time for clay specialists to adapt to hard court and grass and the reverse for the hard/grass court specialists.
It also means the most talented players will always concentrate on the harder surfaces leading to overall less competitive clay competitions. So its safe to say Nadal has had a less competitive run at Roland Garros than Federer had in the early part of his career.
Also when Nadal was injured Fed and Djoikvic duly picked up their Roland Garros titles so its save to say they can play clay.

It could also be said that Fed in the early part of his career blew away the opposition by raising the bar to a different level, he brought shots that no one had ever seen before. Its safe to say he blew the competition out of the water and they couldnt adapt I would say because their games were too entrenched to adapt and prob too psychologically damaged fro the trimmings he gave them. The new crop coming behind them had a target and example to aim at (Fed) thus their playing style could be adapted as it was less embedded and they didn't have the mental baggage as being at the top and being knocked off their perch.
I dont buy for a minute that the competition was overly weak back then, fair enough there was no one else compared to Nadal and Djokivic, and while Roddick was limited he remained competitive for a long time, Hewitt was decent, and Safin certainly I would put alongside any of the 2nd tier of this era esp on hard courts, tho he did have a dubious temperament.

You can ream off all the stats you want but you can say any of them are skewed: Nadals advantage on clay, Fed to old, Nadal injured, Djokvic too young.....
At the end of the day I do like Feds style more, he has a very natural style always makes things look easy like anyone could do it, the single handed backhand at that level is a joy to behold. Nadal and Djokvic always look like they are playing at the limits of their skill level and their physical prowess is taking over.

Problem solving was what got Nadal the slam on Sunday evening, he was in bother but he found a way out with an opponent who was playing the tennis of his life.

The stats aren't skewed, it's remarkable what Nadal has done because of everything, the injuries, the fact clay only takes up 1/4 of the slams, the era he came into. People like to use Nadal's dominance on clay as a stick to beat him with but it's even more remarkable if anything. There's twice as many hard slams as clay every year, the same amount of grass slams and Nadal has ended up on 19 despite being dismissed as a one dimensional clay player. He's untouchable on clay and over the years he has altered his game to not only be competitive outside clay but successful on it. He has 7 non-clay slam titles now, 4 at the US Open which is more than Djokovic has and one less than Federer. Djokovic and Federer have 2 clay court slams between them and only Djokovic has beaten Nadal at RG, once.

Greatness is not about style over substance, as gallsman said, Federer's backhand looks great aesthetically but is arguably his weakness as it it is not reliable enough, when opponents go after it they get success. Federer's biggest weapon is his serving, nothing too much in the aesthetics there. Nadal gets unfairly cast type as some sort of athletic freak who wouldn't know what to do with a racket. Nadal has probably the greatest forehand in the game (I don't think it's as lethal as it was pre 2014 though), he has by far the best overhead smash in the game, his drop shots are definitely up there (being a clay courter) and he has worked tirelessly on his backhand and slice over the years to make it a weapon. If you look across their games, there's not too many shots of Federer you'd choose over Nadal, the serve is the only one with notable gap between them.

I think Nadal is probably the one who is furthest off his peak years at the minute now out of the big 3. The injuries have taken a toll on his body and he has had to change the way he plays his game. The game with Medvedev was the only game he played over 4 hours this year, his longest one up until last night had been 3 hrs 15 minutes against Kyrgios at Wimbledon. He made 3 finals and a SF this year, he has moved away what he did in his peak because his knees won't sustain it. Where Nadal has evolved and adapted Federer and Djokovic haven't really had to as the scales are already tipped in their favour with the slam calendar.

There is no slam of lesser value, you might have bought a little too much into an anglo-centric viewpoint that Wimbledon is the be all and end all. They're all worth the same.

mouview

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Re: The Official Tennis Thread
« Reply #701 on: September 11, 2019, 08:55:30 AM »
Fed's backhand was in superb working order v Nadal in SW19, watch back. Commentators remarked on how much it has improved.

Milltown Row2

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Re: The Official Tennis Thread
« Reply #702 on: September 11, 2019, 09:52:14 AM »
So the fact that Nadal has less slams than Fed, makes him a better player? As all the slams are equally as hard to win according to Angelo  ::)

So with that logic Fed is currently the best, Nadal and Novak could pass him but until then three can only be one winner.

Missed the men’s final, caught the ladies final and Serena is getting to that point that she’s not enjoying it anymore.
Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

Angelo

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Re: The Official Tennis Thread
« Reply #703 on: September 11, 2019, 10:49:42 AM »
So the fact that Nadal has less slams than Fed, makes him a better player? As all the slams are equally as hard to win according to Angelo  ::)

So with that logic Fed is currently the best, Nadal and Novak could pass him but until then three can only be one winner.

Missed the men’s final, caught the ladies final and Serena is getting to that point that she’s not enjoying it anymore.

It's not over yet, Nadal is now on 19, he has reached that number 3 years younger than Federer did, he has reached that number in 14 less slams than it took Federer. That's point one.

Point two. Nadal has had Federer and Djokovic throughout all his slams, Djokovic likewise. Federer hadn't, Federer won 12 slams from 03-07. At this point Nadal and Djokovic were teenagers for the most part, Nadal was primarily a clay court specialist while Djokovic didn't win his first slam until Australia 2008, aged 20. In the 03-07 era, Federer's main challengers were the likes of Roddick (1 year younger than Federer), Hewitt(1 year older), Safin (1 year older), Nalbandian(1 year younger), Davydenko (same age). All these guys were completely washed up by their mid 20s, they couldn't live with the Nadal Djokovic era despite being in the prime of the years. Sampras was retired before Federer won a slam. Look at some of Federer's final opponents in that time (03-07) - Phillippoussis, Gonzalez, Hewitt, Roddick, Bagdathis, Safin and an over the hill Agassi. Federer made hay in a weak era before either Nadal or Djokovic arrived (and the support cast of the likes of Murray, Wawrinka, Del Potro, Cilic, Berdych, Tsonga, Ferrer etc). These guys would all have won slams in the 03-07 era you would suspect, Federer's generation slid completely off the radar when they came in. Roddick survived the top 10 for a while but not long, the rest of them became forgotten men.

Federer made hay, 12 titles before Djokovic and Nadal arrived - 8 after. Since 2008 Nadal and Djokovic have won 16 slams each, Federer 8.

It's about context, Federer won an awful lot of easy slams when the mens game was at a fairly low ebb. Nadal and Djokovic have pretty much won the entirety of their slams when tennis was at an elite level. People go on about Nadal and clay but if Nadal wasn't about then Federer and Djokovic would have at least 4/5 French slams each, Nadal has eliminated them on 12 occasions combined.

Nadal/Djokovic/Federer are all courters, they just happen to perform best on different surfaces - Nadal (clay), Federer (grass), Djokovic (hard). Hard and grass play relatively similarly but clay is a different ball game, so when you look at it from a calendar perspective - 3/4 of the slams are tipped in the favour of Djokovic and Federer - which makes Nadal's numbers even more remarkable.

Angelo

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Re: The Official Tennis Thread
« Reply #704 on: September 11, 2019, 10:51:55 AM »
Fed's backhand was in superb working order v Nadal in SW19, watch back. Commentators remarked on how much it has improved.

It was but it's often been what has let him down too.