Limerick hurlers

[orangeman]

24) It is the end, and no way would I ever play under him again. Anyway the 12 who were dropped don't have a choice, but already they are back pressurising the lads that walked. [Tuesday] night was simple – 'We'll show them players, sure they got hammered by Tipperary! We beat player power!'. Absolute f***ing joke. We don't deserve success in this county – a political battle was won, hurling is F***ED.



Quite a statement to say that hurling is finshed or as good as finished in Limerick. Why does it have to be so ?.

[Zulu]

Hurling isn't finished in Limerick but it is under serious pressure and it is hard to see any change in that for the foreseeable future.

[heffo]

It's sad to read a story like that.

A man that lived and breatherd hurling, tee total etc.

+1

Very good article and he speaks very clearly and eloquently and gets his point across very well.

Does anyone have any links to Justin's original claims re indiscipline and lack of commitment etc??

[dowling]

I'm presuming that coma was a 'typo' Zulu. Unless you can add something some of us don't know.

It isn't a typo and it appears it is only you who is out of the loop, everyone else knows what's going on.

So I'm out of the loop on the details of expenses. The details you so well listed in a previous post. Oh that's right you didn't. It was just the odd throw away remark and whoever introduced this element to the dispute probably got what they hoped for. Question Justin on a personal level just as happened to Ger McCarthy and look at the end result there.


As for Mike OBrien's interview. He's such a shy man he woke up one morning and decided to go to the press. There's no way he was encouraged to do so after a players' meeting or contact with the GPA. Great credentials for someone to tug at the heartstrings, a hardworking farmer, making sacrifices, passionate and a teetotaler. Some cynics might think that would have been a good PR move thought up somewhere and maybe not as spontaneous as presented to us.
And good point Heffo. While I've been unable to stay abreast of all that has gone on as much as I might like I was under the impression that accusations of Justin's indiscipline charge were a later introduction to the dispute, connected to only a few players, and the discontent was initally over 'not lifting the phone' to the dropped players. Yet Mike's interview, whether intended or not, gives the impression both went hand in hand.
As for 30 students sitting an exam and them all failing, maybe the students have expectations above themselves and are doing an exam that is a little too advanced for them.
What's that about a silk purse. I don't mean that in an insulting way but there needs to be a bit of realism. Is Mike OBrien saying a different manager would have lead Limerick to victory over Tipp? Is he saying the players were blameless?
As for the sacrifice bit. Always gets to me. I belong to a fairly successful club where players make great sacrifices to play. But there's more people, ones who look after kids and some committee members who make more sacrifices and put in more hours. And I've no doubt there are ones outside the players in Limerick who are likewise. I might even be inclined to believe Justin has made a few sacrifices in his day.

[Uladh]

So I'm out of the loop on the details of expenses. The details you so well listed in a previous post. Oh that's right you didn't. It was just the odd throw away remark and whoever introduced this element to the dispute probably got what they hoped for. Question Justin on a personal level just as happened to Ger McCarthy and look at the end result there.


As for Mike OBrien's interview. He's such a shy man he woke up one morning and decided to go to the press. There's no way he was encouraged to do so after a players' meeting or contact with the GPA. Great credentials for someone to tug at the heartstrings, a hardworking farmer, making sacrifices, passionate and a teetotaler. Some cynics might think that would have been a good PR move thought up somewhere and maybe not as spontaneous as presented to us.
And good point Heffo. While I've been unable to stay abreast of all that has gone on as much as I might like I was under the impression that accusations of Justin's indiscipline charge were a later introduction to the dispute, connected to only a few players, and the discontent was initally over 'not lifting the phone' to the dropped players. Yet Mike's interview, whether intended or not, gives the impression both went hand in hand.
As for 30 students sitting an exam and them all failing, maybe the students have expectations above themselves and are doing an exam that is a little too advanced for them.
What's that about a silk purse. I don't mean that in an insulting way but there needs to be a bit of realism. Is Mike OBrien saying a different manager would have lead Limerick to victory over Tipp? Is he saying the players were blameless?
As for the sacrifice bit. Always gets to me. I belong to a fairly successful club where players make great sacrifices to play. But there's more people, ones who look after kids and some committee members who make more sacrifices and put in more hours. And I've no doubt there are ones outside the players in Limerick who are likewise. I might even be inclined to believe Justin has made a few sacrifices in his day.

Doesn't stop you speculating widly on the motivation of this player to tell his side of the story though...

[orangeman]

 We never lost a championship match because of drinking, we lost because we weren't good enough on the day.

[Uladh]

We never lost a championship match because of drinking, we lost because we weren't good enough on the day.

Fair play to ye fella.

The art of copying & pasting will never be dead while you're around.

We would all have missed that line the first time round if it were'nt for you.

[orangeman]

Balance.

[dowling]

Well there ye go Uladh. Players weren't good enough on the day but Mike feels the manager should shoulder the blame and be hauled before the county board who should also take the blame.
As for speculating, well I'm abreast enough to do so and while none of us are always right surely there is reason to put a question mark over the presentation of how this interview came about and it's content.
Is this dispute over? I very much doubt it and I would speculate people from the 'players' side, whether it be players themselves or ones in the GPA, are formulating something and don't see this dispute as over.
Would ye not be up for a wee bit of speculation yourself Uladh?

[Reillers]

I'm presuming that coma was a 'typo' Zulu. Unless you can add something some of us don't know.

It isn't a typo and it appears it is only you who is out of the loop, everyone else knows what's going on.

So I'm out of the loop on the details of expenses. The details you so well listed in a previous post. Oh that's right you didn't. It was just the odd throw away remark and whoever introduced this element to the dispute probably got what they hoped for. Question Justin on a personal level just as happened to Ger McCarthy and look at the end result there.


As for Mike OBrien's interview. He's such a shy man he woke up one morning and decided to go to the press. There's no way he was encouraged to do so after a players' meeting or contact with the GPA. Great credentials for someone to tug at the heartstrings, a hardworking farmer, making sacrifices, passionate and a teetotaler. Some cynics might think that would have been a good PR move thought up somewhere and maybe not as spontaneous as presented to us.
And good point Heffo. While I've been unable to stay abreast of all that has gone on as much as I might like I was under the impression that accusations of Justin's indiscipline charge were a later introduction to the dispute, connected to only a few players, and the discontent was initally over 'not lifting the phone' to the dropped players. Yet Mike's interview, whether intended or not, gives the impression both went hand in hand.
As for 30 students sitting an exam and them all failing, maybe the students have expectations above themselves and are doing an exam that is a little too advanced for them.
What's that about a silk purse. I don't mean that in an insulting way but there needs to be a bit of realism. Is Mike OBrien saying a different manager would have lead Limerick to victory over Tipp? Is he saying the players were blameless?
As for the sacrifice bit. Always gets to me. I belong to a fairly successful club where players make great sacrifices to play. But there's more people, ones who look after kids and some committee members who make more sacrifices and put in more hours. And I've no doubt there are ones outside the players in Limerick who are likewise. I might even be inclined to believe Justin has made a few sacrifices in his day.

..Why is it you believe that no one has a mind of their own. I mean do you intentionally insult people all the time out of assumptions or do you genuinely not know you're doing it at this stage.

Because in your mind, no players can decide for themselves, but the more influential ones make their minds up for them and they are of course instructed by and controlled by the all watching GPA, I mean you don't think that Mike O Brien, at the age of 32, has no mind of his own? That he's influenced and told what to do by a few lads?

So you know, he can't be just doing what he says to be doing. Not a chance, because apparently, he's not genuine, it's all just curropt, because he's a great one to "pull at the heartstings" PR this, PR that.

These can't be genuine players, and of course the GPA are involved and the poor old manager is totally a victim and right in everything he does, having done nothing wrong.

If it was one player, two, five..it'd be something, but all of them. You have ideas that there are two or three people influencing the whole lot. And it's based on just your mind alone, despite overwhelming evidence to suggest otherwise.

If questions need to be asked about Justin, that are relevant, than they need to be asked, but no it's just like poor old Ger Mac, the media, and you, and Gerald McCarthy himself, had no problem ripping into the players personal life, but when it was him..If the manager has done something wrong, out of line, they should be pulled for it.It's not all a case of big bad mean players and player power.

And I don't know what kind of club your from lad, but in many cases, clubs have this cycle, it's where everyone gives back in what they got out of it. It's how it's supposed to work.
You're convinced that IC players are these elitist type, who do nothing, and give nothing back. They do though, and it is the case in many clubs. They make sacrifices, everyone does, and you're not in a place to judge who gives more and who does more, just because you're biased, and by the sound of it, very resentful. Because in your view everyone gives more and does more and sacrifices more than the players, who sound like they have a lovely easy life in your world.
And yes Justin has given a lot, and sacrificed a lot in his day, just because he has and he's been involved a long time, doesn't mean you get the right to condem everyone else.
Yet you seem to think your in a position to judge and condem those players, who you think don't give enough compared to everyone else. I mean what gives you the right? It sounds like some bitter resentful stuff to me..

Now I'm not saying I agree or diasgree with the players, or Justin, but the way you feel you are able to and feel you've the right to go in and so heavily criticise and condem the players the way you do, just because you feel that they don't give enough. When you have, in reailty no idea what they do, (and basing it on your club is a joke.) You're completely out of line.

I mean there is one side with you, one that is totally and completley right and the other that is wrong. There's no line in between, when really that's where it should be
But hey, at least you've shown consistancy. A few of the others..and I'm sure they know who they are have been shown to be complete and total hypocrites.

[heffo]

I'm presuming that coma was a 'typo' Zulu. Unless you can add something some of us don't know.

It isn't a typo and it appears it is only you who is out of the loop, everyone else knows what's going on.

So I'm out of the loop on the details of expenses. The details you so well listed in a previous post. Oh that's right you didn't. It was just the odd throw away remark and whoever introduced this element to the dispute probably got what they hoped for. Question Justin on a personal level just as happened to Ger McCarthy and look at the end result there.


As for Mike OBrien's interview. He's such a shy man he woke up one morning and decided to go to the press. There's no way he was encouraged to do so after a players' meeting or contact with the GPA. Great credentials for someone to tug at the heartstrings, a hardworking farmer, making sacrifices, passionate and a teetotaler. Some cynics might think that would have been a good PR move thought up somewhere and maybe not as spontaneous as presented to us.
And good point Heffo. While I've been unable to stay abreast of all that has gone on as much as I might like I was under the impression that accusations of Justin's indiscipline charge were a later introduction to the dispute, connected to only a few players, and the discontent was initally over 'not lifting the phone' to the dropped players. Yet Mike's interview, whether intended or not, gives the impression both went hand in hand.
As for 30 students sitting an exam and them all failing, maybe the students have expectations above themselves and are doing an exam that is a little too advanced for them.
What's that about a silk purse. I don't mean that in an insulting way but there needs to be a bit of realism. Is Mike OBrien saying a different manager would have lead Limerick to victory over Tipp? Is he saying the players were blameless?
As for the sacrifice bit. Always gets to me. I belong to a fairly successful club where players make great sacrifices to play. But there's more people, ones who look after kids and some committee members who make more sacrifices and put in more hours. And I've no doubt there are ones outside the players in Limerick who are likewise. I might even be inclined to believe Justin has made a few sacrifices in his day.

..Why is it you believe that no one has a mind of their own. I mean do you intentionally insult people all the time out of assumptions or do you genuinely not know you're doing it at this stage.

Because in your mind, no players can decide for themselves, but the more influential ones make their minds up for them and they are of course instructed by and controlled by the all watching GPA, I mean you don't think that Mike O Brien, at the age of 32, has no mind of his own? That he's influenced and told what to do by a few lads?

So you know, he can't be just doing what he says to be doing. Not a chance, because apparently, he's not genuine, it's all just curropt, because he's a great one to "pull at the heartstings" PR this, PR that.

These can't be genuine players, and of course the GPA are involved and the poor old manager is totally a victim and right in everything he does, having done nothing wrong.

If it was one player, two, five..it'd be something, but all of them. You have ideas that there are two or three people influencing the whole lot. And it's based on just your mind alone, despite overwhelming evidence to suggest otherwise.

If questions need to be asked about Justin, that are relevant, than they need to be asked, but no it's just like poor old Ger Mac, the media, and you, and Gerald McCarthy himself, had no problem ripping into the players personal life, but when it was him..If the manager has done something wrong, out of line, they should be pulled for it.It's not all a case of big bad mean players and player power.

And I don't know what kind of club your from lad, but in many cases, clubs have this cycle, it's where everyone gives back in what they got out of it. It's how it's supposed to work.
You're convinced that IC players are these elitist type, who do nothing, and give nothing back. They do though, and it is the case in many clubs. They make sacrifices, everyone does, and you're not in a place to judge who gives more and who does more, just because you're biased, and by the sound of it, very resentful. Because in your view everyone gives more and does more and sacrifices more than the players, who sound like they have a lovely easy life in your world.
And yes Justin has given a lot, and sacrificed a lot in his day, just because he has and he's been involved a long time, doesn't mean you get the right to condem everyone else.
Yet you seem to think your in a position to judge and condem those players, who you think don't give enough compared to everyone else. I mean what gives you the right? It sounds like some bitter resentful stuff to me..

Now I'm not saying I agree or diasgree with the players, or Justin, but the way you feel you are able to and feel you've the right to go in and so heavily criticise and condem the players the way you do, just because you feel that they don't give enough. When you have, in reailty no idea what they do, (and basing it on your club is a joke.) You're completely out of line.

I mean there is one side with you, one that is totally and completley right and the other that is wrong. There's no line in between, when really that's where it should be
But hey, at least you've shown consistancy. A few of the others..and I'm sure they know who they are have been shown to be complete and total hypocrites.

Shut up Reillers.

[Zulu]

So I'm out of the loop on the details of expenses. The details you so well listed in a previous post. Oh that's right you didn't. It was just the odd throw away remark and whoever introduced this element to the dispute probably got what they hoped for. Question Justin on a personal level just as happened to Ger McCarthy and look at the end result there.

What are you on about man? You and a number of others questioned whether the Cork hurlers were motivated by financial gain, yet when it is asked of a manager (and we all know managers don't get paid, don't we?) you climb on that high horse of yours. You then have the cheek to ask for proof of any payments to Justin, how the hell do you expect me to provide that? I've disagreed with the likes of heffo, Indiana, skull1 and OM on these issues but none of them doubt Justin isn't in Limerick for the good of his health, not you though because you lack all balance in these debates.

As for Mike OBrien's interview. He's such a shy man he woke up one morning and decided to go to the press. There's no way he was encouraged to do so after a players' meeting or contact with the GPA.

Ah yes the all powerful CIA, I mean GPA, pulling the strings to curry public favour. Sure all these players are only clueless muppets who couldn't care less about hurling and are simply looking for a professional GAA. And why wouldn't Mike O'Brien want a professional GAA at 32 years of age and him being an average IC hurler he can look forward to reaping the benefits a professional GAA will bring. Yep, makes perfect sense to me.

Unlike the Cork players, I've little sympathy for the Limerick players and I wouldn't agree with everything Mike has said but it is now clear that you don't look at these issues objectively and are suffering from some weird paranoid delusions about the GPA and a professional GAA.

While I've been unable to stay abreast of all that has gone on as much as I might like I was under the impression that accusations of Justin's indiscipline charge were a later introduction to the dispute, connected to only a few players, and the discontent was initally over 'not lifting the phone' to the dropped players. Yet Mike's interview, whether intended or not, gives the impression both went hand in hand.

Staying abreast is it? You know as much about what has gone on as you do about heart surgery. Justin dropped 12 players (as his is right) but then gave an interview a few days later implying the reasons they were dropped was due to indiscipline, he didn't make it clear who he was referring to so they were all tarred with the same brush. The other players walkied away because of this but also because they weren't happy with Justins management anyway. This is the second squad in 2 years to want Justin out, but you still don't think he has any questions to answer and you might have noticed that Waterford got to an AI the very year the got rid of him. Considering how much stock you put into Cork's league results when Gerald carried on with the new panel you must feel Waterford were right to get rid of Justin and he was indeed holding them back, would that be right?

[BallyhaiseMan]

I know im getting into this late,
its common decency for an IC manager to contact any players he is leaving out of the previous years panel at the start of the next year,all he has to say is,"im moving in a different direction, and you're not in my plans" "good luck for the future" etc etc
To then come out and tar them all with the same brush,and say they were dropped due to indiscipline was disgraceful.
I sympathise with the 24 Limerick players,
i know id have walked if 12 of my teammates who i have been through many battles with,were discarded with like that.

[dowling]

Zulu and Reillers, you both need to read more closely what is written before getting on your high horse and firing accusations.
I never insulted Mike Obrien and I'm quite sure he can think for himself. In fact he seems like a fairly sound fella. Just the sort you would want representing you in a dispute.
We all know the 'dropped and walk away' players have had meetings and it was reported they were training. At the beginning of the dispute the impression given however was that this wasn't going to be another Cork situation and that there wouldn't be a dispute, it was to be a case of carry on without us. That hasn't panned out however and there have been different statements and interviews. So there has to be some sort of coordination of what's being said. In that context it's very credible to question whether this latest interview fits in to all that.
In addition to that are we to also believe that the, now officially recognised players' body, the GPA are not or have not been in contact with those players mentioned?
Uladh describes my contribution as 'speculation'. And indeed that's what it is and what most of us contribute. But it's not wild speculation. It's firmly grounded.
If we go back to the Cork dispute that episode took a similar course. Players weren't on strike, they just weren't going to play. Then we had the a gradual increase in the statements and appearances by the strikers who obviously concluded they had to be proactive to win this dispute. I'd say all those Cork boys were well able to think for themselves but it would be a blind man that said everything they did wasn't coordinated and well thought out from a PR perspective. Their united interview, all wearing the same gear, who spoke and when. And of course they alluded to their coordination of everything themselves by underling their 'unity'.
This present dispute has taken a very similar course and which I've predicated from the start.
One of the strengths of this Limerick group has to be to remain united and act collectively just as happened in Cork and while there may be the odd interview or utterance from an individual in a personal capacity the chances are that, as a group, they will be trying to avoid that so that all are seen to be singing from the same hymn sheet.
As for Justin's expenses and how relative this is. I doubt there would be too many posters who could come on here and give any details. But you both seem to think it's acceptable to question this man's integrity without any proof by implying his refusal to vacate the manager's job is based on this. Someone somewhere started this, most probably to muddy the water of the dispute and in the hope others would parrot it to give it credibility. It has only entered the debate on these pages recently so you have to wonder how it has become a factor. And sure didn't Ger face a similar attack on his integrity by implying his refusal to leave was based on his 'business connections' with the county board even though he supported the strikers the previous year and the accusations flew in the face of reality?
As for the sacrifice issue Reillers I'm pointing out there's many more than county players who make sacrifices and greater ones. It shouldn't be an area claimed by anyone to strengthen an argument. Indeed if you read what I wrote I compliment the players for the sacrifices they make. But don't let what I write get in the way of a personal attack.
Perhaps if you two would calm down and look at things more logically and read what is written or questions which are posed you could both have a rational debate and be a little less personal with your comments.

[Aghdavoyle]

You're gonna have to change your tune with the blaming the gpa for everything this time round dowling... they're offical players body now so they will be expected to get involved.

You contribute nothing to these debates by the way, except to dissuade people from reading. same as reillers. when you have to twist every single point to be endorsing your contentions and cannot accept there are 2 sides to things, error on all sides etc. then noone can take you seriously