The death penalty. Yes or no?

[Hardy]

I assume the people who support the death penalty with such conviction would not object to making a principled contribution to furthering their cause. I have no doubt they would be willing to go on a panel from whom a victim is chosen to be executed in partial recompense to the family of every innocent wrongly executed. (It would be done humanely, of course - we'll spare them the horrors they so devoutly desire for others.)

If you believe in 'an eye for an eye', you can hardly object to an equally reasonable principle. I wouldn't  expect that people who assume the right to decide on the disposal of the lives of others will believe it unfair that others should have the right to decide the disposal of theirs.

[brokencrossbar1]

We judge people in Court based on 'human' evidence. By that I mean everything, be it DNA, forensics, eye witnesses etc. all have a 'human' element.   There can always be errors,  there can always be the risk of bias/corruption.  People who  commit horrible crimes should be punished but we are supposed to be 'enlightened' so what gives us the right to act as the final judges on their lives.  The death penalty is wrong,  full stop.  There are too many variables that can impact on a guilty verdict.

[EC Unique]

93-DY-SAM: I totally agree. What these guys both did was a vile act and as far as I am concerned these b**tards handed in their "civil rights" license when they did that crime. It is karma that he died the way he did, the other sc**bag should've got the same. What is also sickening is the long line of clowns lining up to bemoan the poor creatur and the terrible american system. I wonder if it was their 11 month old child that was raped and murdered or their sister that was raped and buried alive would they be so understanding of the perpetrator. The yanks are right on this one. Who the hell wants to pay to keep these types of people locked up or try to rehabilitate them, there is no way back to civilised society from such acts.

I am not in favour of the death penalty for all murder cases but in vile extreme cases like this then absolutely they deserve to die roaring.

Spot on.

[Hardy]

93-DY-SAM: I totally agree. What these guys both did was a vile act and as far as I am concerned these b**tards handed in their "civil rights" license when they did that crime. It is karma that he died the way he did, the other sc**bag should've got the same. What is also sickening is the long line of clowns lining up to bemoan the poor creatur and the terrible american system. I wonder if it was their 11 month old child that was raped and murdered or their sister that was raped and buried alive would they be so understanding of the perpetrator. The yanks are right on this one. Who the hell wants to pay to keep these types of people locked up or try to rehabilitate them, there is no way back to civilised society from such acts.

I am not in favour of the death penalty for all murder cases but in vile extreme cases like this then absolutely they deserve to die roaring.

Spot on.

How much roaring would you like to hear lads? We need to know what your limits are. Would you like to be instrumental in producing the roaring, or would it suffice just to be there to hear it? Any suggestions for the most inventive ways to make them roar?

[give her dixie]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/613896-oklahoma-execution/

Just curious if anyone has any sympathy for him?  The only shame to me is that the other sick b*****d didn't meet the same or a worse fate.

No sympathy at all. Poetic justice.

So, using that logic, you would have had no problem with hundreds of Irish men been executed for their convictions of murder down the years? Would that have been poetic justice?

Dixie, whats your irish nationalism mindset got to do with a 19year old innocent female brutally beaten, held captive, raped & buried alive. Her parents released the below statement where they are thankful that the killer rapist has been executed. That's good enough for me. 

THE STATEMENT OF SUSIE AND STEVE NEIMAN

God blessed us with our precious daughter, Stephanie for 19 years. Stephanie loved children.

She worked in Vacation Bible School and always helped with our Church nativity scenes. She was the joy of our life. We are thankful this day has finally arrived and justice will finally be served.

Susie and Steve Neiman, 4-29-14

I'm just pointing out that murder is murder, no matter where in the world it is. Horrific murders took place here. Should the culprits here have been given the death penalty?

What would you do with them Dixie if not put them out of their misery. Rehabilitate them? Leave them in solitary 24/7 for the rest of their lives (surely another form of torture). Tell me what do you do with people as vile and disgusting as these. I'd really love to know what the humane alternative is.

As far as i'm concerned, lock them up. To me, no single person walking this earth has the right to decide if a person is to be executed. As I said earlier, killing someone to teach them that killing is wrong, is wrong.

What I find really sad in this discussion is how people are appalled at the brutal murders that took place, and at the same time, are happy with this brutal inhumane execution in front of a crowd.

This man died a horrible death over 43 minutes, and if people think thats fine and justice was served, then what does it say about their moral compass? Have we become so accustomed to murder that we can pick and chose which is a bad murder and which one is good?

For those of you who think this murder was a good murder, would you have sat in that audience and after witnessing his inhumane death, would you have walked away and said he deserved it?

[haranguerer]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/613896-oklahoma-execution/

Just curious if anyone has any sympathy for him?  The only shame to me is that the other sick b*****d didn't meet the same or a worse fate.

No sympathy at all. Poetic justice.

So, using that logic, you would have had no problem with hundreds of Irish men been executed for their convictions of murder down the years? Would that have been poetic justice?

Dixie, whats your irish nationalism mindset got to do with a 19year old innocent female brutally beaten, held captive, raped & buried alive. Her parents released the below statement where they are thankful that the killer rapist has been executed. That's good enough for me. 

THE STATEMENT OF SUSIE AND STEVE NEIMAN

God blessed us with our precious daughter, Stephanie for 19 years. Stephanie loved children.

She worked in Vacation Bible School and always helped with our Church nativity scenes. She was the joy of our life. We are thankful this day has finally arrived and justice will finally be served.

Susie and Steve Neiman, 4-29-14

I'm just pointing out that murder is murder, no matter where in the world it is. Horrific murders took place here. Should the culprits here have been given the death penalty?

What would you do with them Dixie if not put them out of their misery. Rehabilitate them? Leave them in solitary 24/7 for the rest of their lives (surely another form of torture). Tell me what do you do with people as vile and disgusting as these. I'd really love to know what the humane alternative is.

As far as i'm concerned, lock them up. To me, no single person walking this earth has the right to decide if a person is to be executed. As I said earlier, killing someone to teach them that killing is wrong, is wrong.

What I find really sad in this discussion is how people are appalled at the brutal murders that took place, and at the same time, are happy with this brutal inhumane execution in front of a crowd.

This man died a horrible death over 43 minutes, and if people think thats fine and justice was served, then what does it say about their moral compass? Have we become so accustomed to murder that we can pick and chose which is a bad murder and which one is good?

For those of you who think this murder was a good murder, would you have sat in that audience and after witnessing his inhumane death, would you have walked away and said he deserved it?

Spot on

[93-DY-SAM]

What punishment for child/baby rapists and killers (again I emphasise where there is absolutely no doubt in any way shape of form who did it) would those that oppose the death penalty (Edit: in those circumstances) like to see replace it?

[Hardy]

What punishment for child/baby rapists and killers (again I emphasise where there is absolutely no doubt in any way shape of form who did it) would those that oppose the death penalty (Edit: in those circumstances) like to see replace it?

As far as I know, there's no legal concept of "absolutely no doubt". The standard is "beyond reasonable doubt". By definition, that accommodates some proportion of cases where there is doubt and therefore some proportion of cases where the executed person is innocent of the crime.

So, to turn your question around, what level of wrongful execution is acceptable to ensure that all child/baby rapists and killers get executed?

To answer your question, my conviction is as stated by give her dixie - to kill as a demonstration that killing is wrong is self-evidently not only barbaric, but ridiculous as well. The only reasonable penalty a civilised society can impose is deprivation of liberty and some level of recompense, say in the form of forced work for those able to perform it as well as confiscation of material and financial assets.

[give her dixie]

In Iran where hundreds of people every year die due to the death penalty, this story emerged nearly 2 weeks ago. This is an incredible example of forgiveness and an act of humanity.


Iranian killer's execution halted at last minute by victim's parents

Convict had noose around his neck when victim's mother approached, slapped him in the face and spared his life. Balal's mother hugged the grieving mother of the man her son had killed. The two women sobbed in each other's arms – one because she had lost her son, the other because hers had been saved.




http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/16/iran-parents-halt-killer-execution

[NAG1]

In Iran where hundreds of people every year die due to the death penalty, this story emerged nearly 2 weeks ago. This is an incredible example of forgiveness and an act of humanity.


Iranian killer's execution halted at last minute by victim's parents

Convict had noose around his neck when victim's mother approached, slapped him in the face and spared his life. Balal's mother hugged the grieving mother of the man her son had killed. The two women sobbed in each other's arms – one because she had lost her son, the other because hers had been saved.




http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/16/iran-parents-halt-killer-execution

This is a common enough thing to happen in these cases in Iran, the victims family have the final choice in most cases as to whether the execution is carried out or they can chose to pardon the prisoner.

[macdanger2]

What punishment for child/baby rapists and killers (again I emphasise where there is absolutely no doubt in any way shape of form who did it) would those that oppose the death penalty (Edit: in those circumstances) like to see replace it?

As far as I know, there's no legal concept of "absolutely no doubt". The standard is "beyond reasonable doubt". By definition, that accommodates some proportion of cases where there is doubt and therefore some proportion of cases where the executed person is innocent of the crime.

Exactly that for me - it is impossible to be "100% sure" about a murder. As such, I find it hard to believe that anyone would be in favour of the death penalty.

On these cases in particular, does anybody on here actually know anything of the details of the cases? Or just that two terrible crimes were committed and these two guys were convicted?

[93-DY-SAM]

As far as I know, there's no legal concept of "absolutely no doubt". The standard is "beyond reasonable doubt". By definition, that accommodates some proportion of cases where there is doubt and therefore some proportion of cases where the executed person is innocent of the crime.

So going on that are you saying that there is the possibly of doubt in every single criminal conviction for child rape/murder ever handed down and we can't say with 100% certainty that any one person committed the crime?

So, to turn your question around, what level of wrongful execution is acceptable to ensure that all child/baby rapists and killers get executed?

None what so ever.    How many way's do you want me to phrase it - I believe it's acceptable only where there is no doubt in any way shape or form. 

To answer your question, my conviction is as stated by give her dixie - to kill as a demonstration that killing is wrong is self-evidently not only barbaric, but ridiculous as well. The only reasonable penalty a civilised society can impose is deprivation of liberty and some level of recompense, say in the form of forced work for those able to perform it as well as confiscation of material and financial assets.

I can understand your convictions but no one has suggested what is a suitable level of punishment for these most violent and vile crimes.


Fair play to that mother in Iran but if it was a child of yours could you walk up to the likes of a Charles Warner and said I forgive you?  I know I couldn't.  If that makes me a bad person or someone who is as bad as him in your book then that's the way it is.

[EC Unique]

What punishment for child/baby rapists and killers (again I emphasise where there is absolutely no doubt in any way shape of form who did it) would those that oppose the death penalty (Edit: in those circumstances) like to see replace it?

As far as I know, there's no legal concept of "absolutely no doubt". The standard is "beyond reasonable doubt". By definition, that accommodates some proportion of cases where there is doubt and therefore some proportion of cases where the executed person is innocent of the crime.

So, to turn your question around, what level of wrongful execution is acceptable to ensure that all child/baby rapists and killers get executed?

To answer your question, my conviction is as stated by give her dixie - to kill as a demonstration that killing is wrong is self-evidently not only barbaric, but ridiculous as well. The only reasonable penalty a civilised society can impose is deprivation of liberty and some level of recompense, say in the form of forced work for those able to perform it as well as confiscation of material and financial assets.

An 11 month old baby girl raped and murdered......  That is barbaric.

Putting the man to death years later when he has had ample chance to prove his innocence and or appeal his sentence is not wrong or ridiculous. (In my opinion of course).

I watched a few documentaries lately about the American death row. Currently running on BBC. There were some of the inmates that admitted their horrible crimes and agreed that they deserved to die. What about them?

I can definitely see a case for and against the death penalty but in cases like these I have no sympathy what so ever for these c***ts. I think they should bring back hanging though. Over in a second and more humane than these unreliable injections.

[Hardy]

As far as I know, there's no legal concept of "absolutely no doubt". The standard is "beyond reasonable doubt". By definition, that accommodates some proportion of cases where there is doubt and therefore some proportion of cases where the executed person is innocent of the crime.

So going on that are you saying that there is the possibly of doubt in every single criminal conviction for child rape/murder ever handed down and we can't say with 100% certainty that any one person committed the crime?

There is the possibility of doubt in every single criminal conviction, but that's not the relevant point. There is the probability of doubt in some percentage of cases, therefore some percentage of people executed are innocent. What percentage of wrongful executions is acceptable in order to ensure that all the actually guilty get executed?

So, to turn your question around, what level of wrongful execution is acceptable to ensure that all child/baby rapists and killers get executed?

None what so ever.    How many way's do you want me to phrase it - I believe it's acceptable only where there is no doubt in any way shape or form. 

But haven't we established that the law does not establish guilt with "no doubt in any way shape or form"? The standard it applies is "beyond reasonable doubt". Is this a high enough standard to ensure no innocent people are executed? Clearly not. Does that matter?

[Hound]

    How many way's do you want me to phrase it - I believe it's acceptable only where there is no doubt in any way shape or form. 

If you read those 10 cases of dubious executions posted recently on the thread, you will see that in most of them there was no doubt at the time they were guilty due to witness statements and/or forensic evidence.

But since then either because it turns out the witnesses were lying or just mistaken and/or the foresnic evidence turned out to be not as reliable as thought at the time due to advances in technology, there is now considerable doubt around all those cases.