Mayo's (Where football is life) 3 greatest players

[Lar Naparka]

Thats fair enough, I can understand your line of thinking but WJP makes your list  ahead of McHale even though you say McHale was the best mid-fielder we ever had....

Willie Joe again has two All-Stars, and had the versitility of playing in the forwards and rarely went a game without getting a score. He played from 1977-1992 (I think) and would just shave it ahead of McHale in my book.

For my tuppence worth, Liam was indeed the best midfielder we have had – but only for a limited time.
He was a slow developer and only reached his full potential around the time of the ’96 final. He had spent a long number of years getting there, whereas Wilie Joe rose to the top and stayed there for a much longer spell.
Liam played against the Dubs in ’85 and he was as ungainly and awkward as could be. The Dub supporters jeered every time he tried to solo and I’m afraid they had good reason to. But he was able to gain possession and distribute the ball better than anyone else even then. His timing and his ability with the ball in his hand was undisputed but once he tried any sort of footwork, his inexperience showed up. Fair dues to him, he persevered and by ’96 he was almost the finished article but he was never good at shooting for points. Like Ciaran Mac was to be, he scored some spectacular long range ones alright but he missed far more from easy positions and he did insist on having a go when he could have been better off passing it to a better placed colleague.
Shooting did not come easily to Liam but he insisted on having a go far too many times. 
Willie Joe was consistent and never failed to give it his best shot and I cannot recall a single game where he was outplayed by any marker from any other county. You could also add that Mayo had the best defence in the country in the mid 90s and Liam had plenty of able colleagues to help him out, whereas the same couldn’t be said for Wilie Joe. There were always some good players behind him but Liam had generally better all around support.
I would be very glad to have either back right now but I wouldn’t attempt to compare them one to one. Different times and different teams, I guess.

Lar I don't think Liam played in those games in 1985. I always thought his 1st appearance in Croker was against Monaghan in the League quarter final in 1986.

Accordng to http://mayogaablog.com/?p=2749 this was the team against Roscommon in the Connacht Final and I don't think Liam McHale came in after that.

MAYO: Eugene Lavin; Martin Carney, Peter Forde, Dermot Flanagan; Frank Noone, John Maughan, John Finn; TJ Kilgallon, WJ Padden; Henry Gavin (0-1), Jimmy Burke, Noel Durcan (1-1); Kevin McStay (0-7, five frees, one ‘50’), Sean Lowry (1-0), Eugene McHale (0-2).  Subs: Padraig Brogan for Gavin, Des McHale for Brogan, Billy Fitzpatrick for McHale.

Geez, muppet, I stand corrected here.
It was the semi against Meath in ‘88 that I was referring to.
I was in with a crowd of Dublin fans up on the Cusack for that game and I got almighty stick from the whole effin lot of them every time Liam looked down at his boots so that’s why  the Dubs jeering stuck in my mind.

I was at the semis in ’85 and ’88 so I’m afraid I mixed them up.

Abbeysider,
Colm Mac was a great player without doubt. He was tireless and never, ever slackened off- a lot like Shane Ryan for Dublin in more recent times. But for all of that, he was very awkward and inaccurate in his passing and shooting.
Right now, the chances of a bit of domestic harmony for the foreseeable future is about as remote as Mayo’s chances of an All Ireland - or the possibility of Sligonian shutting up. 
Here’s another quote for ya and it comes straight from the heart;_

“Women are meant to be loved; not understood.”
That was Oscar Wilde’s opinion and right now I’m in full agreement with him- on this one anyway!

[Farrandeelin]

Also, it's a pity Kevin Staunton, Peter Butler and the other Knockmore greats never carried their form from club to county.

Or were allowed to.

I'm glad you said that, moysider not me. At least I'm not the only one who thinks their talents were wasted. Staunton maybe the exception because he was given a chance, but if we had Butler in CHB in 96, I do think of what could've been...

[muppet]

Also, it's a pity Kevin Staunton, Peter Butler and the other Knockmore greats never carried their form from club to county.

Or were allowed to.

I'm glad you said that, moysider not me. At least I'm not the only one who thinks their talents were wasted. Staunton maybe the exception because he was given a chance, but if we had Butler in CHB in 96, I do think of what could've been...

Instead of that year's All Star CHB Jimmy Nallen?

I played against Butler and he was a fine player but remember we had two all stars that year in our half back line and the 3rd was Noel Kennelly who wasn't half bad either.

[moysider]

Thats fair enough, I can understand your line of thinking but WJP makes your list  ahead of McHale even though you say McHale was the best mid-fielder we ever had....

Willie Joe again has two All-Stars, and had the versitility of playing in the forwards and rarely went a game without getting a score. He played from 1977-1992 (I think) and would just shave it ahead of McHale in my book.

For my tuppence worth, Liam was indeed the best midfielder we have had – but only for a limited time.
He was a slow developer and only reached his full potential around the time of the '96 final. He had spent a long number of years getting there, whereas Wilie Joe rose to the top and stayed there for a much longer spell.
Liam played against the Dubs in '85 and he was as ungainly and awkward as could be. The Dub supporters jeered every time he tried to solo and I'm afraid they had good reason to. But he was able to gain possession and distribute the ball better than anyone else even then. His timing and his ability with the ball in his hand was undisputed but once he tried any sort of footwork, his inexperience showed up. Fair dues to him, he persevered and by '96 he was almost the finished article but he was never good at shooting for points. Like Ciaran Mac was to be, he scored some spectacular long range ones alright but he missed far more from easy positions and he did insist on having a go when he could have been better off passing it to a better placed colleague.
Shooting did not come easily to Liam but he insisted on having a go far too many times. 
Willie Joe was consistent and never failed to give it his best shot and I cannot recall a single game where he was outplayed by any marker from any other county. You could also add that Mayo had the best defence in the country in the mid 90s and Liam had plenty of able colleagues to help him out, whereas the same couldn't be said for Wilie Joe. There were always some good players behind him but Liam had generally better all around support.
I would be very glad to have either back right now but I wouldn't attempt to compare them one to one. Different times and different teams, I guess.

Lar I don't think Liam played in those games in 1985. I always thought his 1st appearance in Croker was against Monaghan in the League quarter final in 1986.

Accordng to http://mayogaablog.com/?p=2749 this was the team against Roscommon in the Connacht Final and I don't think Liam McHale came in after that.

MAYO: Eugene Lavin; Martin Carney, Peter Forde, Dermot Flanagan; Frank Noone, John Maughan, John Finn; TJ Kilgallon, WJ Padden; Henry Gavin (0-1), Jimmy Burke, Noel Durcan (1-1); Kevin McStay (0-7, five frees, one '50'), Sean Lowry (1-0), Eugene McHale (0-2).  Subs: Padraig Brogan for Gavin, Des McHale for Brogan, Billy Fitzpatrick for McHale.

Geez, muppet, I stand corrected here.
It was the semi against Meath in '88 that I was referring to.
I was in with a crowd of Dublin fans up on the Cusack for that game and I got almighty stick from the whole effin lot of them every time Liam looked down at his boots so that's why  the Dubs jeering stuck in my mind.

I was at the semis in '85 and '88 so I'm afraid I mixed them up.

Abbeysider,
Colm Mac was a great player without doubt. He was tireless and never, ever slackened off- a lot like Shane Ryan for Dublin in more recent times. But for all of that, he was very awkward and inaccurate in his passing and shooting.
Right now, the chances of a bit of domestic harmony for the foreseeable future is about as remote as Mayo's chances of an All Ireland - or the possibility of Sligonian shutting up. 
Here's another quote for ya and it comes straight from the heart;_

"Women are meant to be loved; not understood."
That was Oscar Wilde's opinion and right now I'm in full agreement with him- on this one anyway!

Whatever about your Dublin friends Lar I dont remember Liam doing much wrong in 88. He was targeted too and took a hammering and still with only one arm any use he was sent in ff and got a goal with another disallowed as far as I remember. I remember meeting him the Tuesday night after and his shoulder and back looked like he d been in a car crash.

I remember some gammy Dublin midfielders in my time. Likes of Jim Ronayne and Declan Bolger were no Christmas tree fairies.

Back to McHale. He did nt play club until minor and his feet never really caught up. But I would argue that he still scored more than Willie Joe including at least 2 championship goals. I dont recollect Willie Joe ever score a championship goal. Not having a go at WJP but his distribution could be wicked while very few players have McHale's radar on the field. His link with Nallen v Kerry in 96 perfect.

McHale could never make a fist of full-forward for some reason. Johnno started this failed initiative 91 in the Hyde. McHale was started at ff even though we were playing into a gale and Killoran and Newton took command at midfield against TJ and a young Colm Mac I think. It was silly stuff and still annoys me to this day.

[Farrandeelin]

No muppet, I mean to bring him on to close the game out. Meath were coming in waves at us for the last 20 minutes and we just needed someone to read the game correctly and to stop the flow and to get the ball. That's what I mean, if to put him on in front of Nallen inself!

[Lar Naparka]

Whatever about your Dublin friends Lar I dont remember Liam doing much wrong in 88. He was targeted too and took a hammering and still with only one arm any use he was sent in ff and got a goal with another disallowed as far as I remember. I remember meeting him the Tuesday night after and his shoulder and back looked like he d been in a car crash.

I remember some gammy Dublin midfielders in my time. Likes of Jim Ronayne and Declan Bolger were no Christmas tree fairies.

Back to McHale. He did nt play club until minor and his feet never really caught up. But I would argue that he still scored more than Willie Joe including at least 2 championship goals. I dont recollect Willie Joe ever score a championship goal. Not having a go at WJP but his distribution could be wicked while very few players have McHale's radar on the field. His link with Nallen v Kerry in 96 perfect.

McHale could never make a fist of full-forward for some reason. Johnno started this failed initiative 91 in the Hyde. McHale was started at ff even though we were playing into a gale and Killoran and Newton took command at midfield against TJ and a young Colm Mac I think. It was silly stuff and still annoys me to this day.

I would say he was the most effective Mayo player on view that day against Meath.The only fault one could find was
his insistence on trying to solo at every opportunity and the poor fist he made of it. But in most other respects
he was very good and Meath had  men deployed to watch him like a hawk. The pulling and dragging was something
fierce and I'm surprised how much dirt he put up with-or the ref let Meath away with.
I wasn't too impressed either with Liam's colleagues who were content to stand back and leave him to fight it out
with two or three opponents every time he went for a ball.
I give him great credit for the effort he was to put in over the years to improve all aspects of his game. I'd say
that by '96 he was the most complete all rounder in the country.

I would certainly have him in front of WJ when both were at their peak and that is the height of praise for any man.
But WJ was at his peak or thereabouts for a much longer period and he was never to play with a team of the calibre of the side in '96. Only Ciaran Mac in later years could match Liam for his radar  and both were far ahead of any others I have seen. Unfortunately, they both shared another trait and that was their unreliability when taking shots at goal.
That was always a problem with Willie Joe; his brain and his boots didn't always work in harmony.
I had always assumed that Liam's reluctance or maybe downright refusal to play FF was the reason he didn't move in there.

[small white mayoman]

Whatever about your Dublin friends Lar I dont remember Liam doing much wrong in 88. He was targeted too and took a hammering and still with only one arm any use he was sent in ff and got a goal with another disallowed as far as I remember. I remember meeting him the Tuesday night after and his shoulder and back looked like he d been in a car crash.

I remember some gammy Dublin midfielders in my time. Likes of Jim Ronayne and Declan Bolger were no Christmas tree fairies.

Back to McHale. He did nt play club until minor and his feet never really caught up. But I would argue that he still scored more than Willie Joe including at least 2 championship goals. I dont recollect Willie Joe ever score a championship goal. Not having a go at WJP but his distribution could be wicked while very few players have McHale's radar on the field. His link with Nallen v Kerry in 96 perfect.

McHale could never make a fist of full-forward for some reason. Johnno started this failed initiative 91 in the Hyde. McHale was started at ff even though we were playing into a gale and Killoran and Newton took command at midfield against TJ and a young Colm Mac I think. It was silly stuff and still annoys me to this day.

I would say he was the most effective Mayo player on view that day against Meath.The only fault one could find was
his insistence on trying to solo at every opportunity and the poor fist he made of it. But in most other respects
he was very good and Meath had  men deployed to watch him like a hawk. The pulling and dragging was something
fierce and I'm surprised how much dirt he put up with-or the ref let Meath away with.
I wasn't too impressed either with Liam's colleagues who were content to stand back and leave him to fight it out
with two or three opponents every time he went for a ball.
I give him great credit for the effort he was to put in over the years to improve all aspects of his game. I'd say
that by '96 he was the most complete all rounder in the country.

I would certainly have him in front of WJ when both were at their peak and that is the height of praise for any man.
But WJ was at his peak or thereabouts for a much longer period and he was never to play with a team of the calibre of the side in '96. Only Ciaran Mac in later years could match Liam for his radar  and both were far ahead of any others I have seen. Unfortunately, they both shared another trait and that was their unreliability when taking shots at goal.
That was always a problem with Willie Joe; his brain and his boots didn't always work in harmony.
I had always assumed that Liam's reluctance or maybe downright refusal to play FF was the reason he didn't move in there.

enjoying the thread and will have to think a bit more about my favourite 3 Mc d will definitely be it it for me anyway. I know when MC was younger and 1st came on the scene he was a bit shoot on site and some went over some didn't but as he got older his shot selection definitely improved in fairness a lot of mayo supporters were saying he was playing too far from goal as he was one of our best scorers. the thing i liked when watching MC and i have travelled many miles to see him ( he is not from my club) was despite the skill he had people forgot about the strength of the man and the way he was able to make space while holding the ball in one hand while holding the opponent off with the other and despite all the abuse he got from opponents he never retaliated, only by putting another one over the blackspot .

[spectator]

McHale could never make a fist of full-forward for some reason. Johnno started this failed initiative 91 in the Hyde. McHale was started at ff even though we were playing into a gale and Killoran and Newton took command at midfield against TJ and a young Colm Mac I think. It was silly stuff and still annoys me to this day.

Apologies to ye all in advance - I hope I'm not hijacking yeer 'Three Greatest Players' thread? Moysider's point above has caught my eye and gotten me thinking back on that game, which raises a point that may even be relevant in some small way to the discussion here.

While John Newton caught the eye that day, LMc playing further forward didn't make that much of an impact. You can generally legitimately argue that his talents weren't being maximised in assuming a role as a playmaker-cum-scoring forward all right, as he hadn't the quality of kicking skills to be a scoring forward, but I suspect the Mayo management well realised that Newton had the beating of LMc at that time and accordingly opted to play him further forward against Ros, in the expectation of him being more effective (against Ros) in the forwards.  I think Newton had previously cleaned LMc when he moved out to try and curb Newton's midfield influence in the drawn game as well.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the McHale - Newton duels \ respective team management selection policies back then, if any, Moysider? Or perhaps you think LMc would have had the beating of Newton the second day, even after the the drawn game?

When WJP came on in the second half that day, it provided - not for the first time - an expected huge boost to Mayo, helping to turn back the tide at midfield somewhat, before Paul Earley moved out to regain the midfield initiative for Ros. WJ tended to be a great impact player for ye against us in those later years, despite being plauged by injuries. He could still be relied on to field a few high ones and was always hugely inspirational to the fans and the rest of the team when introduced.

[moysider]

McHale could never make a fist of full-forward for some reason. Johnno started this failed initiative 91 in the Hyde. McHale was started at ff even though we were playing into a gale and Killoran and Newton took command at midfield against TJ and a young Colm Mac I think. It was silly stuff and still annoys me to this day.

Apologies to ye all in advance - I hope I'm not hijacking yeer 'Three Greatest Players' thread? Moysider's point above has caught my eye and gotten me thinking back on that game, which raises a point that may even be relevant in some small way to the discussion here.

While John Newton caught the eye that day, LMc playing further forward didn't make that much of an impact. You can generally legitimately argue that his talents weren't being maximised in assuming a role as a playmaker-cum-scoring forward all right, as he hadn't the quality of kicking skills to be a scoring forward, but I suspect the Mayo management well realised that Newton had the beating of LMc at that time and accordingly opted to play him further forward against Ros, in the expectation of him being more effective (against Ros) in the forwards.  I think Newton had previously cleaned LMc when he moved out to try and curb Newton's midfield influence in the drawn game as well.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the McHale - Newton duels \ respective team management selection policies back then, if any, Moysider? Or perhaps you think LMc would have had the beating of Newton the second day, even after the the drawn game?

When WJP came on in the second half that day, it provided - not for the first time - an expected huge boost to Mayo, helping to turn back the tide at midfield somewhat, before Paul Earley moved out to regain the midfield initiative for Ros. WJ tended to be a great impact player for ye against us in those later years, despite being plauged by injuries. He could still be relied on to field a few high ones and was always hugely inspirational to the fans and the rest of the team when introduced.

First of all I think the reason that McHale was tried at full-forward was because Micko Dwyer had been saying that was what he would do and build a team around him like he had with the Bomber in Kerry. Maybe he would have succeeded but up here he seems to just have been thrown in there and hope for the best.

As regards Newton and the 91 games I m not so sure about McHale getting the worst of it in the first game. I always thought he always at least broke even with Newton but its 18 years ago and I ve not seen it since.
It was a flawed tactic anyway. Ros were the strongest midfield around at the time and McHale was needed there to compete - especially against the wind. I remember he was redundant with no ball going in. If we d won the toss it might have been worth a look maybe.

Willie Joe was brought on for Colm Mac. By then Ros had a good hold on the game and our scoring rate was bad. WJP had a long career but by the late nineties he hardly ever started a game before July. In the Connacht final of 88 I remember himself and Jimmy Bourke ' warming-up' well into the second half in the Hyde. That was July and both still had some winter conditioning on them.

[moysider]

Also, it's a pity Kevin Staunton, Peter Butler and the other Knockmore greats never carried their form from club to county.

Or were allowed to.

I'm glad you said that, moysider not me. At least I'm not the only one who thinks their talents were wasted. Staunton maybe the exception because he was given a chance, but if we had Butler in CHB in 96, I do think of what could've been...

Instead of that year's All Star CHB Jimmy Nallen?

I played against Butler and he was a fine player but remember we had two all stars that year in our half back line and the 3rd was Noel Kennelly who wasn't half bad either.

I ve probably mentioned it here before but for me the best half-back line I ve seen for Mayo was the one v Roscommon in 1995. Tony Corcoran, Nallen and Butler had 1-2 scored before half time and injury saw Butler replaced.
Maughan just did nt seem to fancy the cut of Butler's jib to be honest. Farmer/carpenters have never been flavour of the month in Mayo dressing rooms if we want to call a spade a spade. Gary Ruane also suffered from this snobbery from  96- 2002 when he was one the best players in the county and in his prime. But there is no doubt in my mind Butler  was a better bet than 2 of the 3 half-backs in 96 and if he was picked in 97 he would nt have been hanging around admiring Maurice Fitz either.

[muppet]

Apparently Willie Joe's catch in 1985 nearly turned the cold war into a hot war. He jumped so high, much higher the the high catch recording equipment at Croker could measure, that he appeared on NATO's radar. The return only lasted a few seconds but the diligent radar operator was certain it looked like a missile with the tell-tale blond streak behind it.

President Reagan was informed and the US was immediately put on DefCon 5, the highest level of alert. However when they analysed the radar image closer the writing they thought was 'CCCP' was in fact 'O'Neill's'.

When the match ended peace returned to the world and all was well except for Wille Joe's hands which had got frostbite as a result of the episode.



P.S. If this makes no sense see the Armagh top 3 players's thread.

[Farrandeelin]

Also, it's a pity Kevin Staunton, Peter Butler and the other Knockmore greats never carried their form from club to county.

Or were allowed to.

I'm glad you said that, moysider not me. At least I'm not the only one who thinks their talents were wasted. Staunton maybe the exception because he was given a chance, but if we had Butler in CHB in 96, I do think of what could've been...

Instead of that year's All Star CHB Jimmy Nallen?

I played against Butler and he was a fine player but remember we had two all stars that year in our half back line and the 3rd was Noel Kennelly who wasn't half bad either.

I ve probably mentioned it here before but for me the best half-back line I ve seen for Mayo was the one v Roscommon in 1995. Tony Corcoran, Nallen and Butler had 1-2 scored before half time and injury saw Butler replaced.
Maughan just did nt seem to fancy the cut of Butler's jib to be honest. Farmer/carpenters have never been flavour of the month in Mayo dressing rooms if we want to call a spade a spade. Gary Ruane also suffered from this snobbery from  96- 2002 when he was one the best players in the county and in his prime. But there is no doubt in my mind Butler  was a better bet than 2 of the 3 half-backs in 96 and if he was picked in 97 he would nt have been hanging around admiring Maurice Fitz either.

He didn't like other Knockmore players either. I've mentioned this previously. However it's true to say Butler wouldn't have stood off M Fitzgerald like Holmes did that day... It'd make you mad if you thought about it too much!

[RedandGreenSniper]

Also, it's a pity Kevin Staunton, Peter Butler and the other Knockmore greats never carried their form from club to county.

Or were allowed to.

I'm glad you said that, moysider not me. At least I'm not the only one who thinks their talents were wasted. Staunton maybe the exception because he was given a chance, but if we had Butler in CHB in 96, I do think of what could've been...

Instead of that year's All Star CHB Jimmy Nallen?

I played against Butler and he was a fine player but remember we had two all stars that year in our half back line and the 3rd was Noel Kennelly who wasn't half bad either.

I ve probably mentioned it here before but for me the best half-back line I ve seen for Mayo was the one v Roscommon in 1995. Tony Corcoran, Nallen and Butler had 1-2 scored before half time and injury saw Butler replaced.
Maughan just did nt seem to fancy the cut of Butler's jib to be honest. Farmer/carpenters have never been flavour of the month in Mayo dressing rooms if we want to call a spade a spade. Gary Ruane also suffered from this snobbery from  96- 2002 when he was one the best players in the county and in his prime. But there is no doubt in my mind Butler  was a better bet than 2 of the 3 half-backs in 96 and if he was picked in 97 he would nt have been hanging around admiring Maurice Fitz either.

That's a bit of a wild accusation Moysider. Can you elaborate?

[mayo 4 eva]

Really good thread lads! What we wouldn't do for a few of the quality defenders mentioned above to still be playing now.  Anyway, it got me thinking (not sure if its been done before), what would be the (for what ever reason), an unlucky/under used Mayo 15 of all time (positions not that important) and why?  My age only permits  me to go back so far in time so i'll need some help. Feel free to say if posters think if players were not up to scratch.

1. Ivan Heffernan Ballina/ Barry Heffernan Crossmolina
2. Gary ruane
3.
4. Ray Connelly
5. Peter Butler
6.
7.
8. Kevin Staunton
9. 1 of the two lads that won an all ireland for louth!
10.
11. Padraig Brogan
12. Mcd (Should still be playing in my opinion)
13. Kevin O Neill
14. Loftus lad from burishoole
15. Billie Fitzpatrick

[ballinaman]

Brian Heffernan would have been a straight sawp for Flanagan who got injured straight away in the 97 AI final, instead whole team was re shuffled, hence Brian Heffernan could be classed as a player that was under used.Case to be made for Ginger and McAndrew from Cross too.