Public pay is 26% higher - ESRI

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1009/economy.html

Public pay is 26% higher - ESRI
Friday, 9 October 2009 11:41
The Economic and Social Research Institute has published a study which finds the pay gap between workers in the public and private sector is 26%.

Last month the ESRI came to a similar conclusion based on factors such as education and qualifications.

The ESRI found an average 26% earnings gap between the public and private sector in 2006.

AdvertisementThe Institute came up with largely the same result using a different methodology this time - job evaluations.

However, it found significant variations within the public sector.

The so-called 'public sector premium' is lowest in the Civil Service and Local Authorities where workers earn an average 9-12% more than counterparts in the private sector.

The premium is greatest in the education sector where pay in the Institutes of Technology and the Universities give rise to a premium of 52.6%.

In security services, gardaí and prison officers earn a high premium but Army workers are on less than their private sector counterparts.

The study did not take account of pensions or benefits-in-kind

[Gnevin]

Sure they are hard up and need a 6% increase according to the unions and some of the lads on the board here.

 

[Farrandeelin]

I'd take a pay-cut.

[Gnevin]

I'd take a pay-cut.

Pay wasn't the main issue (due the budget it is now) , the main issue is work practices and productivity . We've too many people doing not enough and I'm not talking teachers,nurses or front line  garda here

[Rossfan]

. We've too many people doing not enough

And you know this because you spend all your time going around every public sector office, works,depot etc etc looking at the staff there  ,counting the numbers and measuring the amount of work each does???
Or is this another IBEC type generalisation

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Sorry Farrandeelin while I would not add the nurses and maybe not the gardai to the group I have issues with, I most certainly do with the teachers, probably because I have quite a few friends who are teachers who are the worst for condemning the public sector and moaning about their pay. You don't seem to fall into this category as per your posts. Yet I just looked at the ASTI site and the basic pay scales most of my friends at their current years service would currently be €40,193 basic without exam supervision, without correcting exams etc. They receive this for according to the OECD 33 weeks work (or 19 weeks holidays), so lets say that the average private sector worker starting @ 22 years old like the lads, starts with 22 days holidays and gains an extra day holidays every 3 years (if not promoted) now add the average public holidays in the Republic of 9.  So by 29 a private sector worker would have 24 days + 9 days holidays = 33 days holidays (just short of 5 weeks holidays).

So

29 year old public sector worker
167 working days a year

29 year old private sector worker
47 weeks x 5 days = 235 working days a year.

If the same teachers where to work 47 weeks a year like their public sector peers instead of just 33 weeks a year then they would be earning €57,244 a year. So at 29 years of age they are earning this for time worked excluding all the extra ways they can earn money from teaching. Ignoring their generous pension arrangements, excluding the fact so many of them work on their holidays.

The average 29 year old public sector worker earns nothing close to this even before all the other earnings or earning potenial of teachers of the same age. That's if the private sector worker even still has a job or a pension.

[armaghniac]

The premium is greatest in the education sector where pay in the Institutes of Technology and the Universities give rise to a premium of 52.6%.

In security services, gardaí and prison officers earn a high premium but Army workers are on less than their private sector counterparts.

While there are many jobs that you can compare, some of these comparisions are a bit suspect. Private armies, where they exist, have a poorly documented pay structure. There are no private universities, the private third level places are lowly ranked places which hardly attract top class staff.

[Gnevin]

. We've too many people doing not enough

And you know this because you spend all your time going around every public sector office, works,depot etc etc looking at the staff there  ,counting the numbers and measuring the amount of work each does???
Or is this another IBEC type generalisation

Just speaking from personal experience .

[Bogball XV]

Sorry Farrandeelin while I would not add the nurses and maybe not the gardai to the group I have issues with, I most certainly do with the teachers, probably because I have quite a few friends who are teachers who are the worst for condemning the public sector and moaning about their pay. You don’t seem to fall into this category as per your posts. Yet I just looked at the ASTI site and the basic pay scales most of my friends at their current years service would currently be €40,193 basic without exam supervision, without correcting exams etc. They receive this for according to the OECD 33 weeks work (or 19 weeks holidays), so lets say that the average private sector worker starting @ 22 years old like the lads, starts with 22 days holidays and gains an extra day holidays every 3 years (if not promoted) now add the average public holidays in the Republic of 9.  So by 29 a private sector worker would have 24 days + 9 days holidays = 33 days holidays (just short of 5 weeks holidays).

So

29 year old public sector worker
167 working days a year

29 year old private sector worker
47 weeks x 5 days = 235 working days a year.

If the same teachers where to work 47 weeks a year like their public sector peers instead of just 33 weeks a year then they would be earning €57,244 a year. So at 29 years of age they are earning this for time worked excluding all the extra ways they can earn money from teaching. Ignoring their generous pension arrangements, excluding the fact so many of them work on their holidays.

The average 29 year old public sector worker earns nothing close to this even before all the other earnings or earning potenial of teachers of the same age. That’s if the private sector worker even still has a job or a pension.

I think your analysis is a little disingenious, you fail to mention that teacher's have no input into their working hours, are they supposed to work for 37 weeks and then find another job for the other 15 weeks (not saying some of them don't )?  I do think they're paid way in excess of what they should be, but no more so that guards and nurses, and those three groups are far from the worst offenders in the public sector. 

. We've too many people doing not enough

And you know this because you spend all your time going around every public sector office, works,depot etc etc looking at the staff there  ,counting the numbers and measuring the amount of work each does???
Or is this another IBEC type generalisation

Just speaking from personal experience .

I concur and I would find it difficult to believe that anyone in the public sector could disagree that there are too many bodies for the available work in many sectors.  Some of the wastage I've seen is unbelievable, it's not that public servants are lazy (although that can seep in with prolonged under-utilisation), it just that in many instances they actually have nothing to do.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Sorry Farrandeelin while I would not add the nurses and maybe not the gardai to the group I have issues with, I most certainly do with the teachers, probably because I have quite a few friends who are teachers who are the worst for condemning the public sector and moaning about their pay. You don't seem to fall into this category as per your posts. Yet I just looked at the ASTI site and the basic pay scales most of my friends at their current years service would currently be €40,193 basic without exam supervision, without correcting exams etc. They receive this for according to the OECD 33 weeks work (or 19 weeks holidays), so lets say that the average private sector worker starting @ 22 years old like the lads, starts with 22 days holidays and gains an extra day holidays every 3 years (if not promoted) now add the average public holidays in the Republic of 9.  So by 29 a private sector worker would have 24 days + 9 days holidays = 33 days holidays (just short of 5 weeks holidays).

So

29 year old public sector worker
167 working days a year

29 year old private sector worker
47 weeks x 5 days = 235 working days a year.

If the same teachers where to work 47 weeks a year like their public sector peers instead of just 33 weeks a year then they would be earning €57,244 a year. So at 29 years of age they are earning this for time worked excluding all the extra ways they can earn money from teaching. Ignoring their generous pension arrangements, excluding the fact so many of them work on their holidays.

The average 29 year old public sector worker earns nothing close to this even before all the other earnings or earning potenial of teachers of the same age. That's if the private sector worker even still has a job or a pension.

I think your analysis is a little disingenious, you fail to mention that teacher's have no input into their working hours, are they supposed to work for 37 weeks and then find another job for the other 15 weeks (not saying some of them don't )?  I do think they're paid way in excess of what they should be, but no more so that guards and nurses, and those three groups are far from the worst offenders in the public sector. 

. We've too many people doing not enough

And you know this because you spend all your time going around every public sector office, works,depot etc etc looking at the staff there  ,counting the numbers and measuring the amount of work each does???
Or is this another IBEC type generalisation

Just speaking from personal experience .

I concur and I would find it difficult to believe that anyone in the public sector could disagree that there are too many bodies for the available work in many sectors.  Some of the wastage I've seen is unbelievable, it's not that public servants are lazy (although that can seep in with prolonged under-utilisation), it just that in many instances they actually have nothing to do.

They don't work 37 weeks a year, they work 33 weeks a year, that 4 weeks difference might not seem much to a teacher, but its more than most public sectors annual leave.

They certainly not protesting about working too few working hours a day or working weeks a year, thats for sure.

Most teachers I know work another job, sure with all that time off why wouldn't they, funny enough they probably keeping at least 1 other person out of a part time job because of this.

I remember a teacher I had back in school saying that a teacher could never get sacked (to be honest that man was a good enough teacher not to be even considered for sacking, but still the attitude was there). We had another teacher who if he was a public sector worker would have been let go after 2 weeks not be still there after 20 years.

[Bogball XV]

you're missing or ignoring the point, that it's not they who determine that kids need a break for the summer etc, to penalise them for the length of their working year would be akin renting a house for a year and looking for a rebate from the landlord because you were off on holiday for a month.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

you're missing or ignoring the point, that it's not they who determine that kids need a break for the summer etc, to penalise them for the length of their working year would be akin renting a house for a year and looking for a rebate from the landlord because you were off on holiday for a month.

Make summer exams supervision & correcting part of their basic, they don't get paid for the summer months if they don't do this work. Reduce down the basic salary, teachers who correct exams, supervise exams, do lunchtime or break supervision, train football, basketball, do extra weekend English classes for Leaving Cert. etc. get paid more. Even the Religion teacher for time spent supervising students at weekends for Grad Mass or Confirmation or Sunday School, Friday prayers etc. whatever, get paid more, paid for going a step over and above.

[Bogball XV]

you're missing or ignoring the point, that it's not they who determine that kids need a break for the summer etc, to penalise them for the length of their working year would be akin renting a house for a year and looking for a rebate from the landlord because you were off on holiday for a month.

Make summer exams supervision & correcting part of their basic, they don't get paid for the summer months if they don't do this work. Reduce down the basic salary, teachers who correct exams, supervise exams, do lunchtime or break supervision, train football, basketball, do extra weekend English classes for Leaving Cert. etc. get paid more. Even the Religion teacher for time spent supervising students at weekends for Grad Mass or Confirmation or Sunday School, Friday prayers etc. whatever, get paid more, paid for going a step over and above.

I agree that exam supervising and correcting should be part of their basic.  I agree that basic salaries should be cut, but not by more than guards and nurses (both of whom get all sorts of fringe benefits that you seem to be unaware of).  At the moment the vast majority of teachers take some of their work home, in the form of preparation and correcting, they take communion classes, confirmation classes, music classes etc etc, sometimes there are paid posts for these duties, in most cases there aren't. 
I agree they're paid too much, i just don't think that their holiday time etc comes into it, and it bugs me when people mention it, as I said before, it's part of the job, if people are jealous, become teachers (it must be admitted that teachers were a particularly moany bunch during the celtic tiger excesses).