John O'Donoghue -& his expenses

[Main Street]

Personally, I am not a believer in the sacred cow system of democracy to elect members of parliament.
I would have a  2 year civics/constitution/law/civil rights course as part of the Leaving Certificate. Those who demonstrate competency in it can get a 10 year licence to vote.

I am fed up with morons/gobshites who can just about digest a tabloid headline, who fall for every politician's con trick and forked tongue, having the right to vote.

[deiseach]

Personally, I am not a believer in the sacred cow system of democracy to elect members of parliament.
I would have a  2 year civics/constitution/law/civil rights course as part of the Leaving Certificate. Those who demonstrate competency in it can get a 10 year licence to vote.

I am fed up with morons/gobshites who can just about digest a tabloid headline, who fall for every politician's con trick and forked tongue, having the right to vote.

Bloody hell. How Platonic. Who would you have setting the exam?

[Zapatista]

Personally, I am not a believer in the sacred cow system of democracy to elect members of parliament.
I would have a  2 year civics/constitution/law/civil rights course as part of the Leaving Certificate. Those who demonstrate competency in it can get a 10 year licence to vote.

I am fed up with morons/gobshites who can just about digest a tabloid headline, who fall for every politician's con trick and forked tongue, having the right to vote.

The result would be no different. You would merely have a better definition of class in society. There would be the political class, the voting class and the working class.

[Lone Shark]

If you are a true democrat, which most people are (I'm having second thoughts myself to be honest), then the whole point is that it's not fair to have a solution. This isn't a bad system that has been imposed against our will, this is what people want. People in this country don't vote for politicians in the truest sense of the word, they vote for personal concierges who are stealing from the till, but they don't care because they don't make the link between the till and our money.

This is democracy for you. We could be better off, but deep down, all wealth is relative (the Celtic tiger proved that above all) and Paddy and Mary Irishperson would prefer to be less well off collectively as long as they get to pull a stroke somewhere along the line and feel like they got one up on their neighbours.

Call it colonialism or whatever, but it's who we are.

You've always had an interesting line on Irish politics, LS, but this reeks of cut & paste. It has been a trope beloved of political animals in Ireland for God-knows-how-long that people would vote for a yellow dog if FF put them up. Well, unless something dramatic happens in the next couple of years we are going to see something dramatic in the next couple of years: FF electoral meltdown. Analyses of us as a 'race' which exclude the probability of the party of power being reduced at the next election to a loose collection of petty chieftains need to consider intergrating that possibility into their thinking.

Whatever else it is, I can assure you it isn't cut and paste. I'm not naive enough to think that my words will cut straight to the heart of the Irish voting populace and usher in a new era of honesty and working for the collective good, but they are my own.

As for the FF electoral meltdown, I've yet to see that much evidence that it's going to happen. Polling has become a false reflection, voting FF is now like a dirty pleasure, an indulgence that people know they shouldn't get involved in, but just can't help themselves. The people of South Kerry stand by JOD because he's one of their own - and it's the same in every constituency in Ireland, with the possible exception of some of the Dublin ones. We will tell pollsters that we abhor FF, that we'll vote against them, but then we'll go back into the polling booth and do what we always did.

I'll be utterly delighted if the next election, whenever it may be, proves me wrong, but I doubt it. Also, in order for Ireland to truly grow up, we'd have to do two things. Firstly we'd have to punish FF, but secondly, we'd have to not cod ourselves into looking at the past through rose tinted glasses as the new government cleans up the mess and hopefully expunges the system of a lot of toxins. I think there is a decent chance that FF will be out of government after the next election, a slim chance that they'll be reduced to 30 seats or less as they should be, but that's no good if we go through five years of another government and then do like we always did - punish them for cleaning things up at let FF back in for another generation.

[HowAreYeGettinOn]

Some light relief from Miriam Lord's piece in the Times today;

'The Bull has now joined five llamas and two goats on Ireland's missing list of circus escapees.'

[deiseach]

Whatever else it is, I can assure you it isn't cut and paste. I'm not naive enough to think that my words will cut straight to the heart of the Irish voting populace and usher in a new era of honesty and working for the collective good, but they are my own.

I didn't mean you cogged it from someone else, just that it reflects a potentially outdated paradigm

As for the FF electoral meltdown, I've yet to see that much evidence that it's going to happen. Polling has become a false reflection, voting FF is now like a dirty pleasure, an indulgence that people know they shouldn't get involved in, but just can't help themselves. The people of South Kerry stand by JOD because he's one of their own - and it's the same in every constituency in Ireland, with the possible exception of some of the Dublin ones. We will tell pollsters that we abhor FF, that we'll vote against them, but then we'll go back into the polling booth and do what we always did.

I'll be utterly delighted if the next election, whenever it may be, proves me wrong, but I doubt it. Also, in order for Ireland to truly grow up, we'd have to do two things. Firstly we'd have to punish FF, but secondly, we'd have to not cod ourselves into looking at the past through rose tinted glasses as the new government cleans up the mess and hopefully expunges the system of a lot of toxins. I think there is a decent chance that FF will be out of government after the next election, a slim chance that they'll be reduced to 30 seats or less as they should be, but that's no good if we go through five years of another government and then do like we always did - punish them for cleaning things up at let FF back in for another generation.

Well, I think the opinion polls have been pretty accurate in recent elections. You seem to be placing a lot of faith (for want of a better term) in your low opinion of the Irish electorate, but I doubt we've EVER seen numbers this low for FF. What is your precedent for such speculation? As for the 'others' getting punished for cleaning things up, that's a fantasy beloved of FG to explain away the fact that they've never won an election after being in government. It ignores the fact that while they may have often inherited a mess, they rarely (if ever) cleaned things up. A bit of self-knowledge about their own inadequacies would help

[Main Street]

The result would be no different. You would merely have a better definition of class in society. There would be the political class, the voting class and the working class.

You are stuck in viewing society though a class perspective ideology and maybe some fixed methods to eliminate class divisions.

But sure, no one change can effect an end to a political structured ideology  that subverts the constitution rights of the citizens towards the  interests of big business.

But as part of a process I see no obvious negatives to a constitutionally educated electorate.
The evidence is, the more illiterate an electorate, the politicians are more exploitive and self serving.

[deiseach]

But as part of a process I see no obvious negatives to a constitutionally educated electorate.
The evidence is, the more illiterate an electorate, the politicians are more exploitive and self serving.

I was being quite serious when I asked who would write your exam. We do get a bit hung up on platitudes like 'one man one vote' but democracy of the committed doesn't fill me with confidence

[Zapatista]

But as part of a process I see no obvious negatives to a constitutionally educated electorate.
The evidence is, the more illiterate an electorate, the politicians are more exploitive and self serving.

I'm fixed on the reality.

Those you claim to be exploitive are those who would probably qualify to vote in your proposal. Bringing the same result.

The last time there was a system like this they brought in the penal laws. The uneducated (catholic majority) had no right to vote.

There are tests for everything yet they are all designed provide a particular outcome usually dictated by the market. If one of the question in your quiz was 'do you believe marijuna should be legalised?' would the right answer be Yes or No?

I don't know if there is a way to prevent this from happening but I do think remving FF from Government and holding individuals who done wrong to account would be a step in the right direction

[no mo do yakamo]

Back to topic.
I dont know the exact figures but it probably goes something like this.
Somewhere in excess of 200,000 euro in expenses alone in recent years.
If the average taxpayer paid 5000 euro a year in income tax, he has spent 40 years of one mans tax. A working lifetime. Add salary. Same if not more. PER YEAR!!!!!!!  Pension? How many pensions?
I estimate it takes the tax of 50 or 60 workers to keep this man in position for a year. And ten men a year in future to pay his pensions. Its real money, And its our money.
I believe it is criminal.

[Lone Shark]

Well, I think the opinion polls have been pretty accurate in recent elections. You seem to be placing a lot of faith (for want of a better term) in your low opinion of the Irish electorate, but I doubt we've EVER seen numbers this low for FF. What is your precedent for such speculation? As for the 'others' getting punished for cleaning things up, that's a fantasy beloved of FG to explain away the fact that they've never won an election after being in government. It ignores the fact that while they may have often inherited a mess, they rarely (if ever) cleaned things up. A bit of self-knowledge about their own inadequacies would help

Hey, my speculation is just that - my speculation. I'll be the first to admit that there's no basis for it, but even so I can't help but be worried that there's a lot of people out there who talk about being disgusted at what FF have been up to, but they simply won't follow through. I just think it's in the Irish psyche.

As for the history of FG in government, I'll only speak for the ones in my lifetime. In 1982 they took over from a situation where the government pay cheques were a couple of weeks away from bouncing due to the public largesse of Jack Lynch and his stream of populist measures. They slowly steadied the ship and while things didn't get a whole lot better, they got a bit better. The FG labour government in the 1990's was one of the best we had as far as I'm concerned - most of the current growth can be traced back to decisions taken then, and I genuinely believe that everything that FF did from then on was simply keeping the thing between the ditches - and eventually, they failed to do even that.

[Pangurban]

Thats the tragedy of Ireland, the natural party of government have become totally corrupted, and the opposition such as it is would be too incompetent too run a Sweetie Shop. Indeed FF have only got away with their shennanigans because the opposition is so inept and clueless. Its only when the Press point them in the right direction that they begin to chase the Hound, and then usually ineffectively. Things will only change when people become engaged with the process of challenging their TDs and local councillors particularly over the accepted practise of clientilism, which is the only activity most of them indulge in, is a massive con and totally unnecessary

[mylestheslasher]

I can't help but feel the Irish people get to much credit when it comes to this.

I'm of the impression that FF are that good at electioneering that many of the public have no idea how they were duped. FF are masters of manipulation. Just take Bertie Ahern for example. That man has played a huge part in destroying this Country yet the FF machine knew exactly how to play it. They went on a black campaign against his opponents and painted Ahern out to be a victim. It was huge, the guy was in tears on National TV. For some reason Kenny came out looking worse than Ahern. It's not Just our politicans it's the FF machine. The people they have on the inside of every organisation of influence from your GAA club to RTE, from the HSE to the Gardai. Your average voting Joe has no idea of how many angels the are being worked from by FF. The might of FF electioneering and the reach of thier power was evident in the Lisbon debate. It was no coincidence that the main media print and broadcast, business, Union, high profile public figure came out in support of Lisbon. It got a little scary watching them in action.

I often shook my head in disbelief at how the Irish people can continue to support FF. I am now in no doubt of how that happened. It's the innocence of the Irish people that FF have preyed on.

I think you are only half right there Zapatista. I am not sure where you come from but let me tell you something about  the rural Ireland I come from. If FF put up Jack the Ripper for election they would get minimum 20% of the vote, same goes for FG. Its a fan club, you stay with your team to the death. The parties only have to trick or manipulate a few more percent of the "unaffiliated" voters to get their man in.

[dmancork]

They are all at it.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Is there a more eloquent illustration of the venal, parish-pump, nature of the colloquial charade that masquerades as Irish politics?... From the Irish Times:

O'Donoghue to stand for re-election

Departing Ceann Comhairle John O'Donoghue will stand for re-election, the former South Kerry Fianna Fáil TD John O'Leary has said.

Speaking on Radio Kerry this morning, Mr O'Leary said Mr O'Donoghue had told him in a telephone conversation that he would be "standing for re-election in South Kerry, definitely".

He is going to let the people of South Kerry decide whether it is right for him to leave office without a hearing, Mr O'Leary said.

On Tuesday night, Mr O'Donoghue (53) announced he would resign his position as Ceann Comhairle. Mr O'Donoghue was first elected to the Dáil in 1987 and was a cabinet Minister from 1997 until 2007, when he was appointed to the office of Ceann Comhairle.