All Ireland Hurling Final Kilkenny v Tipp - 4 in a row for Kilkenny ?

[gallsman]

Penalty decision was the winner, KK were as poor as I ever seen them in a long time, blessed to win IMO. Tipp were better side on the day just didnt take the chances but ref handed it to KK, peno won it for them, Correct decision on sending off. But feck me they have the luck. They are great but they do get vital breaks outside of there own control from refs.

Cody didnt like marty there going on about the peno. Wonder why?

Rubbish. Tipp had five scorers, and only two in the first half. Kilkenny had eleven Both sets of backs, in particular the half back line were outstanding. Kilkenny converted goal chances, Tipp didn't. Where you're getting the impression that Tipp were the better team is beyond me.

As a Galway man I'm no great lover of Tipp but I certainly thought they were well in charge of the game during the first 20 minutes of the second half.

They may have been but they didn't make it count on the scoreboard. That's their own tough luck.

Agreed, Tipp did dominate the start of the second half. I don't dispute that. By the time Benny was sent off they were only a point up and Henry immediately levelled it. Does having the greater amount of the ball but being unable to convert it make you the better team?!

[bottlethrower7]

In fairness if you watch a re-run just look at how poor at least 5 of the kilkenny players were yesterday.
A couple of the kilkenny lads down the club last night thought Cody was blessed. They reckon he'd have been spit rosted had they lost yesterday. fogarty, Rice, Lyng, Hogan and even Tyrell were miles off the pace yesterday. Even the liikes of Brennan, Tennyson, Henry and Power floated in and out.

People couldn't understand how Richie Hogan was taken off. Granted it worked out well but I think he got a bit lucky yesterday. But as I said the best managers are always lucky!

Ha ha. It kills you to see Kilkenny do well, doesn't it!!

[bottlethrower7]

You're probably right here. I had heard that hickey was flying in training and I thought maybe that Cody just didn't want to take a chance for exactly the reason you mentioned, lack of match fitness.

No, Hickey never got near enough form back in training. He just didn't have enough time to get himself right after his injury. Likewise Cha after his illness.

It was the first year in the 4 of this cycle that Kilkenny had to contend with significant injury worries. And they came through with flying colours.

[bottlethrower7]

Penalty decision was the winner, KK were as poor as I ever seen them in a long time, blessed to win IMO. Tipp were better side on the day just didnt take the chances but ref handed it to KK, peno won it for them, Correct decision on sending off. But feck me they have the luck. They are great but they do get vital breaks outside of there own control from refs.

Cody didnt like marty there going on about the peno. Wonder why?

Rubbish. Tipp had five scorers, and only two in the first half. Kilkenny had eleven Both sets of backs, in particular the half back line were outstanding. Kilkenny converted goal chances, Tipp didn't. Where you're getting the impression that Tipp were the better team is beyond me. They played well, certainly, but by suggesting they were the better team you are inherently implying Kilkenny were lucky to win it. They raised their game when it was required and won trough sheer bloody-mindedness.

As for Benny Dunne, I'm sick of people saying they "feel sorry" for him and that it was "unfortunate." It happened right in front of me and was absolutely filthy. The ball was five yards away from arriving and he laced him. Both vicious and premeditated. The fact that Tommy Walsh plays on the edge and has given out the odd belt himself is completely irrelevant. He didn't pull a dirty stroke yesterday and I've certainly never seen him pull as blatant a stroke as that, and certainly not aimed at anyone's head. He now has five All-Irelands and looks a sure bet to win a seventh straight All-Star, one every year since his debut. Nobody seems to be mentioning it, but Benny has a reputation himself for being a nasty bugger at times.

An outstanding game with two wonderful teams. Derek Lyng was Kilkenny's oldest outfield player at 31, so they've a few more years in them yet. People are forgetting they played the entire year without Noel Hickey, the best full back of his generation. He, along with Kavanagh (seven wins from ten finals by the age of thirty is remarkable,) Shefflin and Brennan will be looking to tag a few more on before they quit. Skehan has 9 so it will be very interesting to see if any of them can do it. Tipp are definitely a coming team, and Galway surely have to break through soon considering their outstanding underage teams over the last five or six years, so Kilkenny's next generation will really have to step up - TJ, Hogan, Tennyson, Fennelly and Rice will have to become leaders on the team to keep the cycle going.

INDIANA- you've been talking about replacements for Eddie Brennan. You seem to be forgetting that in the first few years, many people would have groaned at Eddie's name on the teamsheet. He was inaccurate and went for goal too often. Over the years he has matured and worked his arse off to turn himself into one of the finest forwards you're ever likely to see. He takes his point more than ever, off both left and right, works back a lot more (he ran forty yards to flick away a ball from Woodlock I think it was yesterday), and only goes for goal when it's on. Both Reid and Hogan are only 21. Plenty of time yet.

I have plenty of Kilkenny connections, so I'd like to make it clear that I'm not rubbing salt into any sore wounds, but is it not about time that sign in Urlingford came down? Four in forty years- home of hurling my arse!

+1

maith an fear 

[bottlethrower7]

A good assessment of the things and I agree with most of it.

However, you are missing the penalty decision and its impact on the game.

I think foul happened outside box and should have been 21 yard free. Don't think it "changed the game" the way some people  are suggesting. They were two down with ten minutes left and an extra man. Post penalty they banged in another goal and Larkin stuck over two great points. In fairness to Kirwan he'd let the play go all afternoon and when he blew the whistle Power was inside the box.

I agree that the ref let a lot go yesterday, but he favoured no side. The Callanan frontal charge early on should have been a free but at the same time you'd see it five or six times a match. Callanan also jumped which made the shoulder hit that bit lower ad worsen the winding. The Padraic Maher one was no foul and no free- if you dip your body and neck you're asking for it to happen. Tipp got a lot of soft points from frees yesterday. One in particular- Hogan and Lar Corbett. If anything Lar was stumbling and was impeding Hogan yet somehow won a free for Kelly to tap over.

Again to the people talking about Tipp being the best team. Kelly and Corbett were fantastic granted. Corbett has phenomenal talent but often goes missing in big games. He usually drives for goal and I've never seen him exhibit the skills he did yesterday. He's burnt Kavanagh several times before but has also been in his pocket on more than one occasion. I can perhaps see him playing see him playing CHF a bit more often- masterstroke by Sheedy. Anyway, back to my argument. Callanan played for the second half, but played well. Noel McGrath got a soft point from a caught puckout when there was no one near him due to confusion over an injury back down the field. His other point was a shot at goal that was a fairly comfortable save for PJ.Other than that he did sweet FA though. Still, an outstanding debut season and a shoo-in for YHOTY. Kerwick did a lot of running but blazed at least three wide. John O'Brien was anonymous. For the three outstanding Tipp defensive players (P Maher, B Maher and O'Mahony) read Kavanagh, Walsh and Tennyson. Contrast the scorers with the Kilkenny scorers. Hogan got two from play while lame. Brennan got three wonderful points, as did Larkin. Richie Power got a point, won several frees and worked his arse off. Henry was unusually quiet but also worked his arse off the whole match (see his hook on O'Mahony) and all three Kilkenny subs scored. Not only that, Comerford also made Henry's point from play as well as the penalty. Tipp were outstanding certainly, but to suggest that Kilkenny "got out of jail free" is insulting and just plain incorrect in my opinion.

A quick comment on Michael Kavanagh. I've been at nine of his ten finals and he's one of the greatest players I've ever seen. Yes, he hasn't quite got the pace and never has had it, but if there's a more intelligent hurler who reads the game quite as well as he does...About five or six years ago he got dropped after Rory Jacob skinned him and people were saying that it was the end of him, but he forced his way back in and I have no doubt that he's one of the first names on the teamsheet.

again, great post. You really know your hurling.

And I agree 100%. Penalty or no, Kilkenny would still have won the game. They'd have gotten a point (which I was roaring at Henry to take at that stage) and were always going to finish the stronger.

90% of the posts here are unbelievably blinkered. Just like Donal O Grady's assessment of the referee on the sunday game where he highlighted 3 incidents to show the 'poorness' of the ref. All 3 were decisions he believed should have been frees to Tipp. O'Grady is a bitter, jealous little man. Just like all the rest of the begrudgers. Its amazing how the tones of some posts about a team who have just strung 4 all-Irelands together is about how poor they are, how lucky they are, how tactically naive their manager is. Heres a fact that you might have over looked;

2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 all-Ireland hurling champions - Kilkenny.

How about some balance to the assessment here. The Callinan incident should both have been a free and a yellow card, but like the rest of the world, I didn't think so until I saw a replay. And the self-same replay showed the ref did not have a clear line of sight, so cut him some slack.

People go on about the penalty yet have no clue what the ref was actually blowing for. Was it a pull back, was it the arm around the neck - until you know this, please don't state so categorically whether the ref got it right or not, because unless you know what he was thinking, its senseless even questioning it.

The Maher incident was a free in. Power handled the faceguard alright, but only after Maher handled the ball on the ground.

And how about the free in where Hogan and Callinan were simply both running for a ball?

Or John O'Brien trying to hack off Richie Power arm at the elbow for his point just before half-time?

Both of which I didn't question for a second at the time, or even now - but seeing as people are going to selectively nit-pick the refereeing, how about considering those incidents into the mix?

While Tipperary certainly did have the upper-hand for much of the second-half, they were not the better team. They are still about 3 players shy of being where they need to be. Spring Benny Dunne and Michael Webster from the bench isn't exactly going to strike the fear into Kilkenny. They are a fine team. Unrecognisable from as short a time as 2 years ago - but are now back at a place where Tipperary should be. Tipp have never wanted for talented hurlers. It was always other things that held them back, beit politics, management, whatever. Now they're mostly free of that and can get on with what they do best. They'll win an all-Ireland in the next 2 years and players like McGrath and Corbett should pocket 2 or 3 (or more) before they call time on their careers.

One thing I'd fear though - Cummins will retire soon. Though not the greatest goalie I've ever seen, the man has such presence about him and inspires such confidence that hes going to be very difficult to replace. None of the highly-talented keepers Tipp have had down the years, through to the excellent Darren Gleeson, will be able to command the square like he can.

When the dust settles Tipp will see the magnitude of what they achieved this year. Not beating Cork or Waterford or Tipp, but by doing what no team has come close to doing since 2005 - sowing it into Kilkenny.  And though they were really on song but still came up a little short, some of those players will just keep on getting better. And who knows, the next day they might get that little bit of luck that all teams need to swing a tight game.

To the begrugders - its you who feed this Kilkenny team and help in no small way to keep them going, so feel free to keep up the sniping comments. The Kilkenny players won't be able to hear you above the jingling of the all-Ireland medals in their pockets.

[INDIANA]

Its the opinion of a lot of well respected hurling people (note the term well- respected- ie people who actually schieved something in the game)- that the penalty decison with 8mins to go was a turnng point. Just because you don't agree with that doesn't make the rest of us begrudgers.

But the facts remain that until the 62nd minute Tipp were the better side and Kilkenny are floundering even with the spare man. I've watched the game twice , especially the period from the 52nd min (the time of the sending off) to the 62nd minute- the time of the penalty and Tipp were the better side. They were still 2 points up. Which was the biggest lead any team had all day.

It was actually a free out as one prominent ref pointed out yesterday. Tipp could have gone down the pitch and scored again. Who is to say Kilkenny would definitely still have won? But we'll never know now, thanks to that decision, which ruined the final of the century in my view. How a ref, after a player has run 7 steps with nothing more than a hand laid on him can award a penalty is beyond most hurling people, especially when the ref previously let shoulders to the head and frontal charges go without awarding frees.
It wasn't a pullback, the defender tackled with the inside arm-which is legitimate. And the crux of the issue is Power had already taken 6 steps before any arm was ever placed over his shoulder. To make matters worse Kirwan was standing 7 yards away and had a perfect view. If you actually watch his reaction- he panics. For a split second he didn't what to do, gave the decision which he must have known was wrong. And then couldn't go back. There wasn't a hint of decisiveness anywhere.
GAA needs video refs because referees at both codes are getting too many of these decisons wrong. And that was a wrong decison. I'd like to point out again there is no advantage rule anywhere in the Gaa rulebook. None- it doesn't exist. Yet some refs use it, because rugby uses it.
You train your balls off all year and it come down to badly trained umpires who are all claiming the pension, or refs most of whom can't do the job on its own anymore. If anything comes out of this game its that the GAA radically review this whole area. Because its becoming too costly for teams. I still can't figure why the penalty was given. And its not good enough for people to just brush it under the carpet like BT because it suits his own agenda.  In no other sports are so many mistakes made year on year.

But how anyone can say that Kilkenny would have definitely have won that game regardless of the penalty decison is talking through their rear in my opinion. Because they don't know.

[bottlethrower7]

Its the opinion of a lot of well respected hurling people (note the term well- respected- ie people who actually schieved something in the game)- that the penalty decison with 8mins to go was a turnng point. Just because you don't agree with that doesn't make the rest of us begrudgers.

But the facts remain that until the 62nd minute Tipp were the better side and Kilkenny are floundering even with the spare man. I've watched the game twice , especially the period from the 52nd min (the time of the sending off) to the 62nd minute- the time of the penalty and Tipp were the better side. They were still 2 points up. Which was the biggest lead any team had all day.

It was actually a free out as one prominent ref pointed out yesterday. Tipp could have gone down the pitch and scored again. Who is to say Kilkenny would definitely still have won? But we'll never know now, thanks to that decision, which ruined the final of the century in my view. How a ref, after a player has run 7 steps with nothing more than a hand laid on him can award a penalty is beyond most hurling people, especially when the ref previously let shoulders to the head and frontal charges go without awarding frees.
It wasn't a pullback, the defender tackled with the inside arm-which is legitimate. And the crux of the issue is Power had already taken 6 steps before any arm was ever placed over his shoulder. To make matters worse Kirwan was standing 7 yards away and had a perfect view. If you actually watch his reaction- he panics. For a split second he didn't what to do, gave the decision which he must have known was wrong. And then couldn't go back. There wasn't a hint of decisiveness anywhere.
GAA needs video refs because referees at both codes are getting too many of these decisons wrong. And that was a wrong decison. I'd like to point out again there is no advantage rule anywhere in the Gaa rulebook. None- it doesn't exist. Yet some refs use it, because rugby uses it.
You train your balls off all year and it come down to badly trained umpires who are all claiming the pension, or refs most of whom can't do the job on its own anymore. If anything comes out of this game its that the GAA radically review this whole area. Because its becoming too costly for teams. I still can't figure why the penalty was given. And its not good enough for people to just brush it under the carpet like BT because it suits his own agenda.  In no other sports are so many mistakes made year on year.

But how anyone can say that Kilkenny would have definitely have won that game regardless of the penalty decison is talking through their rear in my opinion. Because they don't know.

nope, 100% correct. And vice versa. All we do know is what happened. And what happened is that Tipperary broke even in the first half. Dominated for large parts of the second half, but came up second best to a Kilkenny team who finished stronger. Why did they finish stronger? Maybe its the cuteness and the experience. Maybe its the the fact that Tipp were a man down and really lost their way and their shape in the closing 10 minutes. Their play became riddled with the kind of mistakes that Kilkenny had been making 6/7 minutes before that.

Yes its opinion, and thank you for sharing your unbiased, yet wholely consistent opinion that Kilkenny should not have won this (or any other) game this year.

My opinion too is shared by many. And that is that the penalty was an irrelevance. 2 points up or one point down. The fact of the matter is that there was 10 minutes to play. Kilkenny had an extra man. What unfolded would likely have unfolded regardless, though yes, we'll never know for sure.

And it wasn't a free out for steps. If anything was going to be given at that point it was a free in. In my opinion.

God forbid Kilkenny will ever actually deserve to win anything.

[gallsman]

INDIANA- Shoulders to the head my arse. Like I said, if you dip your body and head towards an oncoming challenge you're always likely to get it and can have no complaints. As for the challenge on Power, Mickey Kavanagh did the exact same thing to Kelly. Legitimate challenge, Kelly took a bundle of steps and ended up with Kavanagh's arm over his shoulder, winning a free. Did you see Kelly's reaction? He threw a haymaker and was lucky it didn't connect, but I don't hear you being up in arms over that one. As for your comment about there being no advantage rule, refs in both football and hurling have been playing advantage for years without a word said about it. You can't suddenly complain when it hurts your team.

[INDIANA]

It was a major turning point of the game and a rank bad decision. The fact remains at the 62nd minute of the game Tipp were 2 points up, after a bad decision they were a point down. If thats not a turning point obviously then the Battle of Stalingrad in the 2nd World War was just a footnote!

We'll never know now who would have won even if BT is arrogant enough to think he's a fortune teller now. Have you got the lotto numbers at the weekend by any chance?

[bottlethrower7]

It was a major turning point of the game and a rank bad decision. The fact remains at the 62nd minute of the game Tipp were 2 points up, after a bad decision they were a point down. If thats not a turning point obviously then the Battle of Stalingrad in the 2nd World War was just a footnote!

We'll never know now who would have won even if BT is arrogant enough to think he's a fortune teller now. Have you got the lotto numbers at the weekend by any chance?

It was a turning point. My point is that it was an irrelevance because the balance of play shifted in Kilkenny's favour and would have regardless of the penalty.

gallman, again, well said.

[maxpower]

The penalty was a big turning point, i actually felt watching the game the tide was going to turn, Tipp dominated for 20 mins yet at the time of the pen where only 2 up, i was always confident that KK would enjoy 5 mins of dominance and would outscore Tipp by more than 2 in that period given the extra man and the tiring effect that was bound to have on the Tipp players.

All in all at great final, won by a great team and we should applaud both teams for providing exactly the final we needed in a very mediocre year for hurling.

As a aside, how many times to KK get important goals at times when teams are vunerable ie they've just scored a goal, or coming up to the end of the half when team switch off.  And not just one but two or three.  They more than any other team seem to read the passage of the game better and react to it.

[INDIANA]

INDIANA- Shoulders to the head my arse. Like I said, if you dip your body and head towards an oncoming challenge you're always likely to get it and can have no complaints. As for the challenge on Power, Mickey Kavanagh did the exact same thing to Kelly. Legitimate challenge, Kelly took a bundle of steps and ended up with Kavanagh's arm over his shoulder, winning a free. Did you see Kelly's reaction? He threw a haymaker and was lucky it didn't connect, but I don't hear you being up in arms over that one. As for your comment about there being no advantage rule, refs in both football and hurling have been playing advantage for years without a word said about it. You can't suddenly complain when it hurts your team.

Ok tell me then aidan fogarty didn't shoulder someone in the head shortly before he went off? Tell me Pat kerwick wasn't laid low by a shoulder to the head in the 2nd half. You show me the video evidence that says I'm wrong and I'll agree with you 100%. Callinan got a full frontal charge from Tyrell in the first half-thats a free.

We''ll even for arguments sake let all the above go right and call it fair game. He then after allowing the above contact go scot free, gives a penalty for the sort of contact we'd see in an u10's game at a crucial point in the game. Now are you seriously going to suggest to me that is consistent  refereeing. If he was consistent it was a free out. Thats not good refereeing. In anybody's book.

[gallsman]

I'm not disputing it was a significant point in the match, what I'm trying to point out is that because only two of their forwards performed for seventy minute the notion that Tipperary deserved to win the match or were "done" by the ref is misguided.

[gallsman]

INDIANA- Shoulders to the head my arse. Like I said, if you dip your body and head towards an oncoming challenge you're always likely to get it and can have no complaints. As for the challenge on Power, Mickey Kavanagh did the exact same thing to Kelly. Legitimate challenge, Kelly took a bundle of steps and ended up with Kavanagh's arm over his shoulder, winning a free. Did you see Kelly's reaction? He threw a haymaker and was lucky it didn't connect, but I don't hear you being up in arms over that one. As for your comment about there being no advantage rule, refs in both football and hurling have been playing advantage for years without a word said about it. You can't suddenly complain when it hurts your team.

Ok tell me then aidan fogarty didn't shoulder someone in the head shortly before he went off? Tell me Pat kerwick wasn't laid low by a shoulder to the head in the 2nd half. You show me the video evidence that says I'm wrong and I'll agree with you 100%. Callinan got a full frontal charge from Tyrell in the first half-thats a free.

We''ll even for arguments sake let all the above go right and call it fair game. He then after allowing the above contact go scot free, gives a penalty for the sort of contact we'd see in an u10's game at a crucial point in the game. Now are you seriously going to suggest to me that is consistent  refereeing. If he was consistent it was a free out. Thats not good refereeing. In anybody's book.

Hang on now= I've already agreed by with the Tyrell incident. Fogarty? Was that the on on Padraig Maher? No, Maher dipped and getting hit was his own fault, as Duignan pointed out. Kerwick, not at all.

[INDIANA]

It was a major turning point of the game and a rank bad decision. The fact remains at the 62nd minute of the game Tipp were 2 points up, after a bad decision they were a point down. If thats not a turning point obviously then the Battle of Stalingrad in the 2nd World War was just a footnote!

We'll never know now who would have won even if BT is arrogant enough to think he's a fortune teller now. Have you got the lotto numbers at the weekend by any chance?

It was a turning point. My point is that it was an irrelevance because the balance of play shifted in Kilkenny's favour and would have regardless of the penalty.

gallman, again, well said.

If the play had shifted in their favour. Why had Noel Mc Grath scored a point to put  Tipp 2 up less than 20 seconds earlier. By the way thats a fact, not conjecture or opinion.