Narrow Water Bridge - Yes or No

[thewobbler]

Thanks Subbie.

Not much different to quoting a public sector website then!

[johnneycool]

http://destinationnewry.com/videos/margaret-ritchie-responds-to-the-narrow-water-bridge-postponement/

Local MP calls "summit" to find the millions needed to complete the funding package.

It would answer Marge better to campaign for a bridge over strangford lough.

[T Fearon]

Summit will have to happen very quickly. I see Danny Kennedy is already looking for "other projects" to retain the EU portion of the money earmarked for this project.

Incidentally, has the Border area's smuggling community not been asked for a contribution, as they are likely to be one of the main beneficiaries?

[armaghniac]

Incidentally, has the Border area's smuggling community not been asked for a contribution, as they are likely to be one of the main beneficiaries?

This bridge was not big enough for diesel tankers.
Anyhow the nice people of Warrenpoint and Rostrevor don't do anything as common as smuggling, they use alternative sources of imports.

[Applesisapples]

Unionist's don't want this bridge because of the symbolism attached. Gerry and Caitriona would need to take down the posters claiming they delivered it, unless they can get a few oul northern bank notes back into circulation.

[armaghniac]

Gerry and Caitriona would need to take down the posters claiming they delivered it, unless they can get a few oul northern bank notes back into circulation.

They could hire an engineer with a less expensive vision.

[oakleafgael]

Can anyone from a construction or engineering background explain why it costs £20m+ to put a bridge across such a narrow stretch of water? It's flat ground, no rezoning is required, the water is hardly deep or choppy.

I don't know my arse from my elbow here but there's no way every chasm in America would have got a road built over it if that's the going rate.

Im a Construction Manager for a large infrastructure construction company so I'll give it a go Wobbler

Firstly I'd imagine that this is a Design and construct contract, which means the client says theres the site,go and do all the necessary site investigations ( geotechnical,environmental, heritage etc etc) get something designed that meets current standards and bring it back to us, we'll give the OK ,you build it, we'll pay you, job done.

However in the real world its not that simple, when the real world involves dealing with two separate bodies of government and their faceless bureaucrats and technocrats then the cost will explode.

The undoubted delays that the double pronged technocrats will cause would have to be costed into any estimate, the undoubted associated environmental and heritage issues that will develop and thus cause delays will have to be costed into any estimate.

When the delays caused by technocrats,environmentalists, heritage  etc are overcome the next problem is to get the actual design of the bridge and approach roads approved by each local authority in turn, more delays on the horizon, delays = money that has to be costed into any estimate.
Essentially its the land of a thousand stakeholders, nothing will move quickly, the contractor is stuck at the bottom trying to deal with this bureaucratic nightmare and must protect his interests, contractors are after all, simply there to make profit.

Contracting is in its essence all about managing risk, forget about health and safety risks, this is pounds shillings and pence risk pure and simple. The way you manage that risk is to allow a suitable number of pounds shillings and pence in your tender to cover the risk that the multiple stakeholders delay your works.

A good question to ask the contractors that priced the job would be how much money they have in their risk pot, they will never tell you of course but i would imagine its a good whack

The Subbie,

Your not far off the mark with the majority of your reasoning, although a full SI was carried out and included in the Works Information. Another significant cost factor is that the client was Louth County Council using the Public Works Contract and not DRD Roads Service using an NEC Contract.

[firestarter]

Not convinced it will get the volume of traffic to justify its cost...

[All of a Sludden]

Not convinced it will get the volume of traffic to justify its cost...

It's not about the volume of traffic, it's more symbolic than anything else. There is no great need to go to Omeath, there is nothing there, but the bridge would open up the area for tourism and people would come to the area just to cross, what would be the first bridge to be built between north and south since partition. It is simply a case of build it and they will come.

[southdown]

http://www.irishnews.com/business/car-ferry-service-moves-step-closer-1266499

As someone said earlier, ferry form Greencastle to Greenore may go ahead now.

[The Subbie]

Can anyone from a construction or engineering background explain why it costs £20m+ to put a bridge across such a narrow stretch of water? It's flat ground, no rezoning is required, the water is hardly deep or choppy.

I don't know my arse from my elbow here but there's no way every chasm in America would have got a road built over it if that's the going rate.

Im a Construction Manager for a large infrastructure construction company so I'll give it a go Wobbler

Firstly I'd imagine that this is a Design and construct contract, which means the client says theres the site,go and do all the necessary site investigations ( geotechnical,environmental, heritage etc etc) get something designed that meets current standards and bring it back to us, we'll give the OK ,you build it, we'll pay you, job done.

However in the real world its not that simple, when the real world involves dealing with two separate bodies of government and their faceless bureaucrats and technocrats then the cost will explode.

The undoubted delays that the double pronged technocrats will cause would have to be costed into any estimate, the undoubted associated environmental and heritage issues that will develop and thus cause delays will have to be costed into any estimate.

When the delays caused by technocrats,environmentalists, heritage  etc are overcome the next problem is to get the actual design of the bridge and approach roads approved by each local authority in turn, more delays on the horizon, delays = money that has to be costed into any estimate.
Essentially its the land of a thousand stakeholders, nothing will move quickly, the contractor is stuck at the bottom trying to deal with this bureaucratic nightmare and must protect his interests, contractors are after all, simply there to make profit.

Contracting is in its essence all about managing risk, forget about health and safety risks, this is pounds shillings and pence risk pure and simple. The way you manage that risk is to allow a suitable number of pounds shillings and pence in your tender to cover the risk that the multiple stakeholders delay your works.

A good question to ask the contractors that priced the job would be how much money they have in their risk pot, they will never tell you of course but i would imagine its a good whack

The Subbie,

Your not far off the mark with the majority of your reasoning, although a full SI was carried out and included in the Works Information. Another significant cost factor is that the client was Louth County Council using the Public Works Contract and not DRD Roads Service using an NEC Contract.

Public works contract is not "contractor friendly" at all. The NEC contract is easier to get around right enough.

The full SI been carried out would worry me depending on who carried it out, there have been firms I know off that have been "creative" in their descriptions of what they found down there and at what depth i.e they went to the geological survey of Ireland in Beggars Bush and got the geological maps for a particular area and done a "desktop" survey, went to the site and lets just say the drilling,boreholes and slit trenches would have been a quick operation, followed by an even quicker report been issued and even quicker again by the invoice sent out!

The bigger issue here is that when Louth CoCo did their initial estimate they obviously got the lads in the office to do it, probably didn't go near a proper QS firm that would be all over current rates etc etc.

To my mind its a massive massive fail on Louth Co Co's behalf, Maybe I'm biased but if someone put a Co Council engineers estimate in front of me and a contractors estimate in front of me and asked me which one was gonna be the closest to reality I'd be going with the contractors all day long.

Interesting that they did do a Site investigation tho, thanks Oakleaf.

 

[All of a Sludden]

Louth County Council Cathaoirleach welcomes Bridge Order for Narrow Water Bridge and commits to sparing no effort to see the project proceed

Cllr Declan Breathnach, Cathaoirleach, Louth County Council has welcomed the decision of Mr. Danny Kennedy MLA, Minister for Regional Development (Northern Ireland) to proceed with a Bridge Order for the Narrow Water Bridge connecting counties Louth and Down.

Cllr Breathnach said the decision by Minister Kennedy means that the bridge has cleared a further important milestone. "While we had the announcement earlier this week that the bridge project was 'on hold' given the shortfall between the available funds and the prices quoted during the tendering process, it is still important that we continue the statutory approval process and the Narrow Water Bridge Order (Northern Ireland) 2013 and Newry River (Diversion of Navigable Watercourse and Extinguishment of Public Rights of Navigation) Order (NI) 2013 are both vital in this regard.

"The fact that Mr Kennedy is proceeding in this way without the need for a time-consuming and expensive public inquiry is also to be welcomed."

The Council Cathaoirleach said the onus is now on public representatives and officials to examine every possible avenue to allow the bridge to proceed. "Having navigated the complex approval process in both the Republic and Northern Ireland and won the support of key stakeholders who recognise its huge social and economic potential, it is vital that we now spare no effort to keep this project alive and use all of our creativity and energy to find a solution to the funding issue.

"There is a very robust and carefully thought out rationale for this project and the case for proceeding is arguably stronger in the present economic environment when the positive spin-offs from it would be all the more welcome. To me, this is one of the main missing pieces of the jigsaw that can unlock this entire region's potential and connect people and places as never before. None of us can be blind to the economic realities of today but we can't have a recession in our ambition and vision as well."

The single-carriageway, 195 metres cable-stayed Narrow Water Bridge is designed to connect Cornamucklagh near Omeath, Co Louth with Narrow Water near Warrenpoint, Co Down and the total length of the proposed scheme is 620m.

[All of a Sludden]

JOINT STATEMENT FROM THE MAYOR OF NEWRY & MOURNE DISTRICT COUNCIL AND CHAIRMAN OF LOUTH LOCAL AUTHORITIES REGARDING THE NARROW WATER BRIDGE PROJECT ON FRIDAY 26 JULY 2013

Councillor Michael Ruane, Mayor of Newry & Mourne District Council and Councillor Declan Breathnach, Chairman of Louth Local Authorities confirmed that the Louth Newry and Mourne Joint Committee met on Monday 22 July 2013 to discuss the future of the Narrow Water Bridge Project.

At the conclusion of the above mentioned Meeting the Joint Committee agreed to develop an innovative and robust Action Plan to secure the additional €15 million required to ensure the Narrow Water Bridge Project can be completed as per the original timetable.

Senior Officials from both Newry & Mourne and Louth Council were instructed to investigate the possibility of sourcing a cocktail of funding to guarantee the future development of the Narrow Water Bridge and to report back to the Joint Committee as soon as possible. This work is ongoing and positive signals have been received from a number of funding sources.

The Joint Committee acknowledged the letter of offer dated 9th July 2013 from the Special European Union Programme Body totalling €17.4 million which had to be accepted or rejected within 6 weeks.

Councillor Declan Breathnach, Chairman of Louth Local Authorities stated the development of the Narrow Water Bridge was essential for the continued economic revival of the Louth and South Down regions. He continued by calling all Political Groupings to support the future development of the Bridge.

Councillor Michael Ruane, Mayor of Newry & Mourne District Council stated the Narrow Water Bridge has been very high on Newry & Mourne District Council's Capital Programme for a number of years and its development will greatly assist in the growth of tourism, economic regeneration and social relationships in our respective areas. He continued by reinforcing that no stone should be left unturned in the final effort to make the Bridge Project a reality.

[babarino]

Not convinced it will get the volume of traffic to justify its cost...

It's not about the volume of traffic, it's more symbolic than anything else. There is no great need to go to Omeath, there is nothing there, but the bridge would open up the area for tourism and people would come to the area just to cross, what would be the first bridge to be built between north and south since partition. It is simply a case of build it and they will come.

I've no doubt it would get the volume of traffic to justify the cost and it's not about symbolism. Lorries from ferries into Warrenpoint, currently hit the bottleneck that is Newry most days. These would use the bridge to go south, linking up with the M1 at the Carrickdale or going via Carlingford to the M1. Likewise it would take all traffic going from south Down (Newcastle, Downpatrick, Castlewellan, Warrenpoint...) to Dublin. It would alleviate the traffic in Newry big time. If it wasn't connecting two jurisdictions, it would have been build a long time ago.

You're right that it would be a massive boost to tourism, particularly in the Mournes. Think of how much more accessible the region would be to Dublin airport, the single biggest entry point in Ireland. And not surprisingly Sammy Wilson frustrated all involved, failing to commit the small portion of the funding required until the 11th hour. And then when the whole thing runs into bother with tenders the usual half wits come out with the 'better used for hospitals and schools line.' This project is a no brainer.

[thewobbler]

Barbarino, if a series of lorries are going to go over the Omeath/Ravensdale Road, or go through Carlingford, there's two very good reasons not to build the bridge. Some things in life are more important than haulage arriving a whole 5 mins earlier.

I could also be losing the plot here with logistics but why would anyone from Newcastle, Downpatrick or Castlewellan go out of their way to divert to Warrenpoint and sit on back roads over the border, instead of taking the main road to Newry then the motorway to Dundalk? Anyone coming from those directions has no reason even to enter Newry at present.


This bridge is a waste of money unless there's an accompanying relief road over the mountain.