United Ireland, what would you give up or not give up if it where a reality?

[Son_of_Sam]

Cab we get a few of their nukes and maybe a nuclear submarine then we can pretent to be a rogue state and blackmail billions off the Yanks!

[Evil Genius]

Well EG, I can tell  you I would want the ex unionists to feel comfortable in a united Ireland and would support any reasonable measures to do that. Can you suggest any such measures? I'm not winding you up here, genuinely interested to know.

I am reluctant in one sense to outline measures which would reassure ex-Unionists, since that risks both appearing to set out a list of demands, as well as retaining and reinforcing a vestigial "British/Unionist" identity, which cannot really be consistent with the new Ireland which imo would have to be constructed.

That said, assuming everyone started with a genuinely clean slate, to devise an Ireland for all Irish people outwith the old definitions of Unionist and Nationalist etc, I would guess there would have to be some interim measures necessary to persuade former Unionists that they could "buy into it".

In terms of Government, I actually wouldn't be for maintaining a 6 county devolved assembly in Stormont, since that would only serve to allow hardliners in the DUP etc, to deny that much had changed. But neither would I be keen on eg the setting up of four Provincial assemblies, either, if that could mean Unionists were delivered into a 9 county Ulster, dominated by Sinn Fein.

For whilst Unionists may be prepared to share power with SF in an NI Assembly, there is no way they (we) will ever be prepared to trust the Shinners' bona fides outwith the protection afforded by our membership of the UK. None.

In fact, if that was to be our fate, then it would almost certainly lead to a Unionist flight East of the Bann, with Unionism re-united around an anti-SF banner, maybe even leading to an "Ulster [sic] Independence" movement and insurgency etc, with all the havoc which that would entail. 

I guess, therefore, that the answer would be to have a simple bicameral National Parliament in Dublin, plus a system of local Government of (8 or 10?) "Super Councils" below, with nothing in between. (I am a firm believer that both Ireland and Britain have far too many bloody Governments bodies and paid politicians, btw).

Within such a system, Northern Unionists might be "over-represented" in the Senate, for a limited period only, in order to oversee and represent their rights, both interim and permanent.

As regards those rights, I have already stated that anyone who presently qualifies for a British Passport should be allowed to keep it for life, either solely or jointly alongside an Irish Passport. (Those born subsequently should not, in principle, be entitled to a the Passport, though they might be entitled to qualify perhaps eg for one or two further generations, or by residence in GB, or service in the British Armed Forces etc). British Pension rights should be guaranteed for life as well, along with the unfettered right to serve in the British Armed Forces.

And whilst it wouldn't actually make a huge difference to anyone on a day-to-day basis, I feel that the new Ireland would be advised to re-join the Commonwealth, if for no other reason than the reassurance which that would accord to (former) Unionists. After all, if ex-Colonies such as Kenya, who fought their own bitter liberation wars considerably more recently than 1921, can let bygones be bygones, I don't see why a (genuinely) new Ireland could not.

Beyond that, I can't actually think of many other accommodations which should reasonably be expected by Unionists; if nothing else, membership of the EU should serve to protect the rights of all citizens of the new State.

But as I say, the key is that all parties should approach the task of building that new State with an open mind and no entrenched demands*.

P.S. I wouldn't like anyone to run away with the idea that I am either looking forward to such a process, nor even expecting it, in my lifetime! 


* - Actually on reflection, I would make one inalienable demand. Namely, just as Honk Kong has been allowed to keep its international football team even after re-unification with China, we MUST be allowed to keep the NI team, otherwise it's all off!

[mylestheslasher]

Well EG, I can tell  you I would want the ex unionists to feel comfortable in a united Ireland and would support any reasonable measures to do that. Can you suggest any such measures? I'm not winding you up here, genuinely interested to know.

I am reluctant in one sense to outline measures which would reassure ex-Unionists, since that risks both appearing to set out a list of demands, as well as retaining and reinforcing a vestigial "British/Unionist" identity, which cannot really be consistent with the new Ireland which imo would have to be constructed.

That said, assuming everyone started with a genuinely clean slate, to devise an Ireland for all Irish people outwith the old definitions of Unionist and Nationalist etc, I would guess there would have to be some interim measures necessary to persuade former Unionists that they could "buy into it".

In terms of Government, I actually wouldn't be for maintaining a 6 county devolved assembly in Stormont, since that would only serve to allow hardliners in the DUP etc, to deny that much had changed. But neither would I be keen on eg the setting up of four Provincial assemblies, either, if that could mean Unionists were delivered into a 9 county Ulster, dominated by Sinn Fein.

For whilst Unionists may be prepared to share power with SF in an NI Assembly, there is no way they (we) will ever be prepared to trust the Shinners' bona fides outwith the protection afforded by our membership of the UK. None.

In fact, if that was to be our fate, then it would almost certainly lead to a Unionist flight East of the Bann, with Unionism re-united around an anti-SF banner, maybe even leading to an "Ulster [sic] Independence" movement and insurgency etc, with all the havoc which that would entail. 

I guess, therefore, that the answer would be to have a simple bicameral National Parliament in Dublin, plus a system of local Government of (8 or 10?) "Super Councils" below, with nothing in between. (I am a firm believer that both Ireland and Britain have far too many bloody Governments bodies and paid politicians, btw).

Within such a system, Northern Unionists might be "over-represented" in the Senate, for a limited period only, in order to oversee and represent their rights, both interim and permanent.

As regards those rights, I have already stated that anyone who presently qualifies for a British Passport should be allowed to keep it for life, either solely or jointly alongside an Irish Passport. (Those born subsequently should not, in principle, be entitled to a the Passport, though they might be entitled to qualify perhaps eg for one or two further generations, or by residence in GB, or service in the British Armed Forces etc). British Pension rights should be guaranteed for life as well, along with the unfettered right to serve in the British Armed Forces.

And whilst it wouldn't actually make a huge difference to anyone on a day-to-day basis, I feel that the new Ireland would be advised to re-join the Commonwealth, if for no other reason than the reassurance which that would accord to (former) Unionists. After all, if ex-Colonies such as Kenya, who fought their own bitter liberation wars considerably more recently than 1921, can let bygones be bygones, I don't see why a (genuinely) new Ireland could not.

Beyond that, I can't actually think of many other accommodations which should reasonably be expected by Unionists; if nothing else, membership of the EU should serve to protect the rights of all citizens of the new State.

But as I say, the key is that all parties should approach the task of building that new State with an open mind and no entrenched demands*.

P.S. I wouldn't like anyone to run away with the idea that I am either looking forward to such a process, nor even expecting it, in my lifetime! 


* - Actually on reflection, I would make one inalienable demand. Namely, just as Honk Kong has been allowed to keep its international football team even after re-unification with China, we MUST be allowed to keep the NI team, otherwise it's all off!

Well for what it is worth I don't have any major issue with anything you have proposed with the exception of rejoining the commonwealth, mostly as monarchy is anti republic. I'm sure a compromise could be reached. As for your fear of Sinn Fein after reunification, as a former Sinn Fein member I would go as far as to say that I would suggest Sinn Fein disband at that point as their primary objective would have been achieved. I don't see any reason any SF member would have a problem with making that sacrifice.

[Rossfan]

* - Actually on reflection, I would make one inalienable demand. Namely, just as Honk Kong has been allowed to keep its international football team even after re-unification with China, we MUST be allowed to keep the NI team, otherwise it's all off!

So the "NI" soccer team is a Unionist thing after all E G 

[Myles Na G.]

Well EG, I can tell  you I would want the ex unionists to feel comfortable in a united Ireland and would support any reasonable measures to do that. Can you suggest any such measures? I'm not winding you up here, genuinely interested to know.

I am reluctant in one sense to outline measures which would reassure ex-Unionists, since that risks both appearing to set out a list of demands, as well as retaining and reinforcing a vestigial "British/Unionist" identity, which cannot really be consistent with the new Ireland which imo would have to be constructed.

That said, assuming everyone started with a genuinely clean slate, to devise an Ireland for all Irish people outwith the old definitions of Unionist and Nationalist etc, I would guess there would have to be some interim measures necessary to persuade former Unionists that they could "buy into it".

In terms of Government, I actually wouldn't be for maintaining a 6 county devolved assembly in Stormont, since that would only serve to allow hardliners in the DUP etc, to deny that much had changed. But neither would I be keen on eg the setting up of four Provincial assemblies, either, if that could mean Unionists were delivered into a 9 county Ulster, dominated by Sinn Fein.

For whilst Unionists may be prepared to share power with SF in an NI Assembly, there is no way they (we) will ever be prepared to trust the Shinners' bona fides outwith the protection afforded by our membership of the UK. None.

In fact, if that was to be our fate, then it would almost certainly lead to a Unionist flight East of the Bann, with Unionism re-united around an anti-SF banner, maybe even leading to an "Ulster [sic] Independence" movement and insurgency etc, with all the havoc which that would entail. 

I guess, therefore, that the answer would be to have a simple bicameral National Parliament in Dublin, plus a system of local Government of (8 or 10?) "Super Councils" below, with nothing in between. (I am a firm believer that both Ireland and Britain have far too many bloody Governments bodies and paid politicians, btw).

Within such a system, Northern Unionists might be "over-represented" in the Senate, for a limited period only, in order to oversee and represent their rights, both interim and permanent.

As regards those rights, I have already stated that anyone who presently qualifies for a British Passport should be allowed to keep it for life, either solely or jointly alongside an Irish Passport. (Those born subsequently should not, in principle, be entitled to a the Passport, though they might be entitled to qualify perhaps eg for one or two further generations, or by residence in GB, or service in the British Armed Forces etc). British Pension rights should be guaranteed for life as well, along with the unfettered right to serve in the British Armed Forces.

And whilst it wouldn't actually make a huge difference to anyone on a day-to-day basis, I feel that the new Ireland would be advised to re-join the Commonwealth, if for no other reason than the reassurance which that would accord to (former) Unionists. After all, if ex-Colonies such as Kenya, who fought their own bitter liberation wars considerably more recently than 1921, can let bygones be bygones, I don't see why a (genuinely) new Ireland could not.

Beyond that, I can't actually think of many other accommodations which should reasonably be expected by Unionists; if nothing else, membership of the EU should serve to protect the rights of all citizens of the new State.

But as I say, the key is that all parties should approach the task of building that new State with an open mind and no entrenched demands*.

P.S. I wouldn't like anyone to run away with the idea that I am either looking forward to such a process, nor even expecting it, in my lifetime! 


* - Actually on reflection, I would make one inalienable demand. Namely, just as Honk Kong has been allowed to keep its international football team even after re-unification with China, we MUST be allowed to keep the NI team, otherwise it's all off!

Wouldn't disagree with any of that.

[magickingdom]

Well EG, I can tell  you I would want the ex unionists to feel comfortable in a united Ireland and would support any reasonable measures to do that. Can you suggest any such measures? I'm not winding you up here, genuinely interested to know.

I am reluctant in one sense to outline measures which would reassure ex-Unionists, since that risks both appearing to set out a list of demands, as well as retaining and reinforcing a vestigial "British/Unionist" identity, which cannot really be consistent with the new Ireland which imo would have to be constructed.

That said, assuming everyone started with a genuinely clean slate, to devise an Ireland for all Irish people outwith the old definitions of Unionist and Nationalist etc, I would guess there would have to be some interim measures necessary to persuade former Unionists that they could "buy into it".

In terms of Government, I actually wouldn't be for maintaining a 6 county devolved assembly in Stormont, since that would only serve to allow hardliners in the DUP etc, to deny that much had changed. But neither would I be keen on eg the setting up of four Provincial assemblies, either, if that could mean Unionists were delivered into a 9 county Ulster, dominated by Sinn Fein.

For whilst Unionists may be prepared to share power with SF in an NI Assembly, there is no way they (we) will ever be prepared to trust the Shinners' bona fides outwith the protection afforded by our membership of the UK. None.

In fact, if that was to be our fate, then it would almost certainly lead to a Unionist flight East of the Bann, with Unionism re-united around an anti-SF banner, maybe even leading to an "Ulster [sic] Independence" movement and insurgency etc, with all the havoc which that would entail. 

I guess, therefore, that the answer would be to have a simple bicameral National Parliament in Dublin, plus a system of local Government of (8 or 10?) "Super Councils" below, with nothing in between. (I am a firm believer that both Ireland and Britain have far too many bloody Governments bodies and paid politicians, btw).

Within such a system, Northern Unionists might be "over-represented" in the Senate, for a limited period only, in order to oversee and represent their rights, both interim and permanent.

As regards those rights, I have already stated that anyone who presently qualifies for a British Passport should be allowed to keep it for life, either solely or jointly alongside an Irish Passport. (Those born subsequently should not, in principle, be entitled to a the Passport, though they might be entitled to qualify perhaps eg for one or two further generations, or by residence in GB, or service in the British Armed Forces etc). British Pension rights should be guaranteed for life as well, along with the unfettered right to serve in the British Armed Forces.

And whilst it wouldn't actually make a huge difference to anyone on a day-to-day basis, I feel that the new Ireland would be advised to re-join the Commonwealth, if for no other reason than the reassurance which that would accord to (former) Unionists. After all, if ex-Colonies such as Kenya, who fought their own bitter liberation wars considerably more recently than 1921, can let bygones be bygones, I don't see why a (genuinely) new Ireland could not.

Beyond that, I can't actually think of many other accommodations which should reasonably be expected by Unionists; if nothing else, membership of the EU should serve to protect the rights of all citizens of the new State.

But as I say, the key is that all parties should approach the task of building that new State with an open mind and no entrenched demands*.

P.S. I wouldn't like anyone to run away with the idea that I am either looking forward to such a process, nor even expecting it, in my lifetime! 


* - Actually on reflection, I would make one inalienable demand. Namely, just as Honk Kong has been allowed to keep its international football team even after re-unification with China, we MUST be allowed to keep the NI team, otherwise it's all off!

actually eg in any new ireland i think people in the north who consider themselves british should be entitled to british passports in perpetuity just like nationalists in the north are entitled to irish ones now. not gone on the old soccer idea tho cause if there another george best. . .