Author Topic: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread  (Read 72237 times)

Dinny Breen

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #480 on: November 02, 2015, 03:54:06 PM »
If you are a manager, and told you can spend millions to get the best players in, you wouldn't spend it?

You'd be in a minority of one I'd say
. I doubt David O'Leary negotiated wage deals with individual players, and if I remember correctly, a lot of their problems were due to stupid personal terms they negotiated with players.

Wenger!
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screenexile

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #481 on: November 02, 2015, 04:00:13 PM »
If you are a manager, and told you can spend millions to get the best players in, you wouldn't spend it?

You'd be in a minority of one I'd say
. I doubt David O'Leary negotiated wage deals with individual players, and if I remember correctly, a lot of their problems were due to stupid personal terms they negotiated with players.

Wenger!

He's the complete opposite of O'Leary... the club are in rude health and he still won't spend the money!!

Dinny Breen

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #482 on: November 02, 2015, 04:08:37 PM »
If you are a manager, and told you can spend millions to get the best players in, you wouldn't spend it?

You'd be in a minority of one I'd say
. I doubt David O'Leary negotiated wage deals with individual players, and if I remember correctly, a lot of their problems were due to stupid personal terms they negotiated with players.

Wenger!

He's the complete opposite of O'Leary... the club are in rude health and he still won't spend the money!!

And he's probably right, he came through a period where they had to finance a new stadium. He was never a buying manager, he only buys when he feels the player can improve the team not because the supporters/media demand it and he feels there is value. He did buy Sanchez and Ozil and his only signing this year has been a 33 year old goal keeper who has so far been the signing of the season. A good coach/manager can improve players, a bad coach/manager feels the only solution is to buy. A manager is protected by his contract therefore I think the point selmothis making is that has to have some sense of future planning and be responsible with the club finances and player pathways.
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smelmoth

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #483 on: November 02, 2015, 04:13:15 PM »
But you see, there was a credible story about where the money was coming from - the 'Ray Ranson' model was talked about as the new and better way to finance transfer deals.  It wasn't, but that's hardly Dave O'Leary's fault.

That was no different to borrowing the money off Ranson and buying the players outright

It certainly was.

On balance sheet debt versus off balance sheet debt. Its still debt. Its still acquiring players on the never never

screenexile

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #484 on: November 02, 2015, 04:16:51 PM »
If you are a manager, and told you can spend millions to get the best players in, you wouldn't spend it?

You'd be in a minority of one I'd say
. I doubt David O'Leary negotiated wage deals with individual players, and if I remember correctly, a lot of their problems were due to stupid personal terms they negotiated with players.

Wenger!

He's the complete opposite of O'Leary... the club are in rude health and he still won't spend the money!!

And he's probably right, he came through a period where they had to finance a new stadium. He was never a buying manager, he only buys when he feels the player can improve the team not because the supporters/media demand it and he feels there is value. He did buy Sanchez and Ozil and his only signing this year has been a 33 year old goal keeper who has so far been the signing of the season. A good coach/manager can improve players, a bad coach/manager feels the only solution is to buy. A manager is protected by his contract therefore I think the point selmothis making is that has to have some sense of future planning and be responsible with the club finances and player pathways.

I get what you're saying but bar Ferguson and Wenger what manager can really plan for the future? No manager is safe for 3 years and Wenger is in a unique position that yes he created but is completely at odds with everything that is happening in football throughout the world. Wenger has been a manager of a big club that didn't win a trophy of significance for a long time and still refused to open the cheque book.

This would not be tolerated by the board and fans of any other club (and isn't by a lot of Arsenal fans and high profile ones at that) so judging O'Leary by Wenger and Ferguson standards isn't really fair I don't think!

Billys Boots

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #485 on: November 02, 2015, 04:17:37 PM »
I would have called it serviceable debt vs. unserviceable debt - the finance houses thought it was a good idea, until the team stopped winning games.  The latter was O'Leary's responsibility, the finance deal wasn't. 
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smelmoth

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #486 on: November 02, 2015, 04:21:31 PM »
I never said it was a positive. That's a straw man right there. What I said was O'Leary is not the main culprit. And you haven't answered my question. What should he, or any football manager, have done to ensure there was adequate finance?

Still doesn't let you off the hook. When has has an exponential increase in spending with no credible explanation of where the money has come from ever worked out?

Why do I need to be off the hook for you misunderstanding what I said? :)

In your defence of O'Leary I have asked you to point to any positive examples of exponential increases in spending without a credible explanation of where the money is coming from. Surely if there isn't such an example then he looks foolish at best

My whole defence of O'Leary is that it was not part of his responsibility to ensure the finances of the club were above board. His responsibility lay in identifying players, working within the budget set, and getting the most out of them on the field.

Whether he was clued in to the backroom dealings of the club at ownership and director level is a non-sequitur as far as I'm concerned.

So, exponential increases without an explanation of where the money is coming from is not a sustainable business model.
David O'Leary's role is not to query the business model, it is to invest the funds he is given wisely and get the most out of them.

So if Norwich do sign Stones on the never never or Sligo Rovers sign Messi & Ronaldo based upon dosh from unaccounted for sources or to be repaid from unaccounted for sources then we all just play along like happy fools? Or at some stage do adults start behaving like adults?

Billys Boots

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #487 on: November 02, 2015, 04:37:50 PM »
Real Madrid signing Ronaldo/Messi/Bale/whoever is no more sustainable financially than Norwich signing Stones - it's a question of risk. 
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AZOffaly

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #488 on: November 02, 2015, 04:43:13 PM »
I never said it was a positive. That's a straw man right there. What I said was O'Leary is not the main culprit. And you haven't answered my question. What should he, or any football manager, have done to ensure there was adequate finance?

Still doesn't let you off the hook. When has has an exponential increase in spending with no credible explanation of where the money has come from ever worked out?

Why do I need to be off the hook for you misunderstanding what I said? :)

In your defence of O'Leary I have asked you to point to any positive examples of exponential increases in spending without a credible explanation of where the money is coming from. Surely if there isn't such an example then he looks foolish at best

My whole defence of O'Leary is that it was not part of his responsibility to ensure the finances of the club were above board. His responsibility lay in identifying players, working within the budget set, and getting the most out of them on the field.

Whether he was clued in to the backroom dealings of the club at ownership and director level is a non-sequitur as far as I'm concerned.

So, exponential increases without an explanation of where the money is coming from is not a sustainable business model.
David O'Leary's role is not to query the business model, it is to invest the funds he is given wisely and get the most out of them.

So if Norwich do sign Stones on the never never or Sligo Rovers sign Messi & Ronaldo based upon dosh from unaccounted for sources or to be repaid from unaccounted for sources then we all just play along like happy fools? Or at some stage do adults start behaving like adults?

What are you talking about? Who is 'We?'. You have the knife into David O'Leary for something that was not his responsibility. You can say he should have asked more questions about the sustainability of the approach, maybe he should, but he is not an accountant, and better qualified people than him were responsible for that area of running the club.

If you are saying the Leeds situation was mismanaged, then I'd be agreeing with you 100%. If you are saying it was O'Leary's responsibility to ensure that didn't happen, then I disagree with you.


screenexile

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #489 on: November 02, 2015, 04:48:21 PM »
I never said it was a positive. That's a straw man right there. What I said was O'Leary is not the main culprit. And you haven't answered my question. What should he, or any football manager, have done to ensure there was adequate finance?

Still doesn't let you off the hook. When has has an exponential increase in spending with no credible explanation of where the money has come from ever worked out?

Why do I need to be off the hook for you misunderstanding what I said? :)

In your defence of O'Leary I have asked you to point to any positive examples of exponential increases in spending without a credible explanation of where the money is coming from. Surely if there isn't such an example then he looks foolish at best

My whole defence of O'Leary is that it was not part of his responsibility to ensure the finances of the club were above board. His responsibility lay in identifying players, working within the budget set, and getting the most out of them on the field.

Whether he was clued in to the backroom dealings of the club at ownership and director level is a non-sequitur as far as I'm concerned.

So, exponential increases without an explanation of where the money is coming from is not a sustainable business model.
David O'Leary's role is not to query the business model, it is to invest the funds he is given wisely and get the most out of them.

So if Norwich do sign Stones on the never never or Sligo Rovers sign Messi & Ronaldo based upon dosh from unaccounted for sources or to be repaid from unaccounted for sources then we all just play along like happy fools? Or at some stage do adults start behaving like adults?

Yeah but we're not talking about Norwich or Sligo Rovers this was a club consistently in the top 6 of the Premier League who had qualified for Champions League and Uefa Cup in his time there... how was he to know Ridsdale had leveraged against future entry into the Champions League and the gate receipts that would generate!!!

Anyway I don't think you're going to change your mind as you have O'Leary hung for it anyway so best to agree to differ. I still think any manager worth their salt would have done the exact same thing as O'Leary!

smelmoth

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #490 on: November 02, 2015, 04:58:19 PM »
Real Madrid signing Ronaldo/Messi/Bale/whoever is no more sustainable financially than Norwich signing Stones - it's a question of risk.

No its not.

Real debts make a mockery of FFP but they do have assets and cash flows to repay the debt if they could wean themselves of the habit of racking up more debt

smelmoth

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #491 on: November 02, 2015, 05:00:25 PM »
I never said it was a positive. That's a straw man right there. What I said was O'Leary is not the main culprit. And you haven't answered my question. What should he, or any football manager, have done to ensure there was adequate finance?

Still doesn't let you off the hook. When has has an exponential increase in spending with no credible explanation of where the money has come from ever worked out?

Why do I need to be off the hook for you misunderstanding what I said? :)

In your defence of O'Leary I have asked you to point to any positive examples of exponential increases in spending without a credible explanation of where the money is coming from. Surely if there isn't such an example then he looks foolish at best

My whole defence of O'Leary is that it was not part of his responsibility to ensure the finances of the club were above board. His responsibility lay in identifying players, working within the budget set, and getting the most out of them on the field.

Whether he was clued in to the backroom dealings of the club at ownership and director level is a non-sequitur as far as I'm concerned.

So, exponential increases without an explanation of where the money is coming from is not a sustainable business model.
David O'Leary's role is not to query the business model, it is to invest the funds he is given wisely and get the most out of them.

So if Norwich do sign Stones on the never never or Sligo Rovers sign Messi & Ronaldo based upon dosh from unaccounted for sources or to be repaid from unaccounted for sources then we all just play along like happy fools? Or at some stage do adults start behaving like adults?

What are you talking about? Who is 'We?'. You have the knife into David O'Leary for something that was not his responsibility. You can say he should have asked more questions about the sustainability of the approach, maybe he should, but he is not an accountant, and better qualified people than him were responsible for that area of running the club.

If you are saying the Leeds situation was mismanaged, then I'd be agreeing with you 100%. If you are saying it was O'Leary's responsibility to ensure that didn't happen, then I disagree with you.

I think you are confusing me with someone who siad O'Leary was soley responsible for the Leeds dibacle

AZOffaly

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #492 on: November 02, 2015, 05:04:19 PM »
O'Leary at Leeds and Harry at Pompey cannot escape significant responsibility for the wholesale mismanagement of those clubs. It's also very difficult to attribute any measure of success to them as individuals as most managers can improve results if given a runaway budget
The responsibility lies with the people above the managerial level. If the manager is overspending, buying crap players, not getting results or all of the above, then it is the job of the men at the top to show them the door. Ridsdale has to should the blame.

Nobody is saying Risdale et al are not to blame but the idea that a manager can keep spending and never ask where it is coming from doesn't stack up. If say Norwich got in a 35m+ bidding war with Chelsea for Stones do you think Alex Neill would ask a few questions?

You said this.

Firstly, we don't know that O'Leary didn't ask and wasn't told not to worry about it.

Secondly, as I've said, ensuring the financial viability of the club is not the job of the football manager.

I never said you think he's the only one to blame. My opinion is that you are placing too much emphasis on the fact that he wasn't more of a regulator of the club finances, and I don't think that's fair.

And I have no love for David O'Leary by any means.

Also, if Norwich said they were going to buy Stones for 35m, I believe Alex Neill would jump around with delight. He might ask 'really, can we afford that?' but if the mandarins tell him  'yes, we have a finance plan in place' he'd go buck mad and spend it.

Rufus T Firefly

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #493 on: November 04, 2015, 08:27:06 AM »
First home win since March; first win over Cardiff since 1984!  :o

Only saw the goal - thought it was a bit of a misjudgment by Marshall in Cardiff's goal. I don't care though! That win was badly needed. Away to Huddersfield next!   


Billys Boots

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #494 on: November 04, 2015, 09:04:08 AM »
Saw that result late last night and had to pinch myself - might be portentous, as as that Cardiff game way-back-when was the  start of the downfall.
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