Author Topic: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread  (Read 69406 times)

AZOffaly

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #465 on: November 02, 2015, 02:38:06 PM »
Again, the manager is being told the money is there. Is he supposed to bring in his own auditors to make sure? What should he have done?

screenexile

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #466 on: November 02, 2015, 02:41:33 PM »
The manager is told he *does* have it. That's the point. He's not the one responsible for the purse strings. It's like any business, you get told what your budget is, and you have to either operate within that budget, or else look for more money.

If the lad controlling the purse strings is allocating money he doesn't have, then that's where the primary blame lies. I'd blame the manager if the players he buys aren't up to it, but I can't blame him for stupid wages, or if he's been given money to spend that the club didn't actually have.

So a manager just continues spending magicked up money until the creditors close in and leave the fans with a crock of sh1t?

He'd have been destroyed by fans if they're being told the money's there to buy X, Y, Z and the manager says "Ah lads maybe we'll take a long term view, yes I'm being told we have the money but maybe we should be prudent about the thing!"

Not a chance!! It's not his job. His job is to get the best players to come to Leeds and get them playing well. The money is someone else's responsibility.

smelmoth

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #467 on: November 02, 2015, 02:42:01 PM »
Not for one second am I saying that O'Leary acted sensibly.  In his defence, what was he expected to know or understand about club finances if he was assured that the money was there for him to build a team that he (and the club executive) wanted?

He could reasonably be expected to ask the basic questions about the funding of an exponential increase in spending

What do you think he should have done? He's an employee of the club, like anyone else. He is not responsible for allocating the money, he is only responsible for spending it and getting good value for what he spends.

I also doubt he had anything to do with the stupid wage setup.

Do you think he should have said "Lads, I don't think we can afford this fella, stop giving me money?"

As I said, I think he'd be in a minority of one if he did. Managers always want to be improving their squad.

Still waiting on your positive examples of this sort of operation working?

Value for money is hardly where he would be running for a defence.

AZOffaly

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #468 on: November 02, 2015, 02:47:41 PM »
I never said it was a positive. That's a straw man right there. What I said was O'Leary is not the main culprit. And you haven't answered my question. What should he, or any football manager, have done to ensure there was adequate finance?

smelmoth

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #469 on: November 02, 2015, 02:50:51 PM »
Again, the manager is being told the money is there. Is he supposed to bring in his own auditors to make sure? What should he have done?

I wouldn't go confusing "asking basic questions" and "bringing in the auditors"

If I was bringing in someone from a competitor and trying to get them to sign a long-term contract I would want to know that the wages would be paid and the ambitions stood some chance of being realized.

If I was taking the adulation of the fans and spending unprecedented wads of cash then I would seek out the reassurances that we weren't pissing on their dreams
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 02:52:42 PM by smelmoth »

gallsman

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #470 on: November 02, 2015, 02:54:13 PM »
My favourite Leed's story, true or not, was the one about Ridsdale's, eh, tough negotiation with Seth Johnson and his agent.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

smelmoth

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #471 on: November 02, 2015, 02:56:18 PM »
I never said it was a positive. That's a straw man right there. What I said was O'Leary is not the main culprit. And you haven't answered my question. What should he, or any football manager, have done to ensure there was adequate finance?

Still doesn't let you off the hook. When has has an exponential increase in spending with no credible explanation of where the money has come from ever worked out?

Billys Boots

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #472 on: November 02, 2015, 03:06:08 PM »
But you see, there was a credible story about where the money was coming from - the 'Ray Ranson' model was talked about as the new and better way to finance transfer deals.  It wasn't, but that's hardly Dave O'Leary's fault. 
My hands are stained with thistle milk ...

Rufus T Firefly

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #473 on: November 02, 2015, 03:10:06 PM »
The Guardian did an investigation into this whole sorry saga a good number of years ago. It's a long but (I think) interesting read.


smelmoth

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #474 on: November 02, 2015, 03:11:31 PM »
But you see, there was a credible story about where the money was coming from - the 'Ray Ranson' model was talked about as the new and better way to finance transfer deals.  It wasn't, but that's hardly Dave O'Leary's fault.

That was no different to borrowing the money off Ranson and buying the players outright

AZOffaly

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #475 on: November 02, 2015, 03:11:44 PM »
But you see, there was a credible story about where the money was coming from - the 'Ray Ranson' model was talked about as the new and better way to finance transfer deals.  It wasn't, but that's hardly Dave O'Leary's fault.

'Sactly. I think smelmoth is putting way too much emphasis on O'Leary's role in all this. He probably thought he was on the pig's back.

AZOffaly

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #476 on: November 02, 2015, 03:15:31 PM »
I never said it was a positive. That's a straw man right there. What I said was O'Leary is not the main culprit. And you haven't answered my question. What should he, or any football manager, have done to ensure there was adequate finance?

Still doesn't let you off the hook. When has has an exponential increase in spending with no credible explanation of where the money has come from ever worked out?

Why do I need to be off the hook for you misunderstanding what I said? :)

smelmoth

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #477 on: November 02, 2015, 03:23:01 PM »
I never said it was a positive. That's a straw man right there. What I said was O'Leary is not the main culprit. And you haven't answered my question. What should he, or any football manager, have done to ensure there was adequate finance?

Still doesn't let you off the hook. When has has an exponential increase in spending with no credible explanation of where the money has come from ever worked out?

Why do I need to be off the hook for you misunderstanding what I said? :)

In your defence of O'Leary I have asked you to point to any positive examples of exponential increases in spending without a credible explanation of where the money is coming from. Surely if there isn't such an example then he looks foolish at best

Billys Boots

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #478 on: November 02, 2015, 03:30:17 PM »
But you see, there was a credible story about where the money was coming from - the 'Ray Ranson' model was talked about as the new and better way to finance transfer deals.  It wasn't, but that's hardly Dave O'Leary's fault.

That was no different to borrowing the money off Ranson and buying the players outright

It certainly was. 
My hands are stained with thistle milk ...

AZOffaly

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Re: The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread
« Reply #479 on: November 02, 2015, 03:47:12 PM »
I never said it was a positive. That's a straw man right there. What I said was O'Leary is not the main culprit. And you haven't answered my question. What should he, or any football manager, have done to ensure there was adequate finance?

Still doesn't let you off the hook. When has has an exponential increase in spending with no credible explanation of where the money has come from ever worked out?

Why do I need to be off the hook for you misunderstanding what I said? :)

In your defence of O'Leary I have asked you to point to any positive examples of exponential increases in spending without a credible explanation of where the money is coming from. Surely if there isn't such an example then he looks foolish at best

My whole defence of O'Leary is that it was not part of his responsibility to ensure the finances of the club were above board. His responsibility lay in identifying players, working within the budget set, and getting the most out of them on the field.

Whether he was clued in to the backroom dealings of the club at ownership and director level is a non-sequitur as far as I'm concerned.

So, exponential increases without an explanation of where the money is coming from is not a sustainable business model.
David O'Leary's role is not to query the business model, it is to invest the funds he is given wisely and get the most out of them.