Mayo Vs Meath - All-Ireland Quarter Finals

[IolarCoisCuain]

I don't agree with that at all. I think it's a lazy analysis by the journalist to be honest. The only people talking about 96 were the national media and Liam McHale.
None of the people I spoke to before the match were talking about revenge or Colm Coyle or any of that. There was practically no connection between the Mayo 1996 and Mayo 2009 teams, so it was irrelevant. I think most people realised that. The media (particularly nationally) automatically thought of 96 when the draw was made, but that wasn't the focus in Mayo (or Meath I presume).

As regards McHale, what do people expect before the first Mayo-Meath championship match since 96? Its like Sheehy s chip on Cullen being dragged up before every Kerry - Dublin match. It s what the media do. I was glad McHale was honest and good to see him still bitter. Shows he still cares. But to suggest that this affected the Mayo team the last day is a joke. They could nt care two f**ks about McHale and Coyle and 96. Footballers are selfish men by nature and they were not interested in the past.

Cant agree with IolarCoisCuain earlier and agree with Moy and Tubberman.
It had nothing to do with '96.

Listen/Watch to David Heaney on TV3... he dismisses any reference to '96
http://www.tv3.ie/sport.php?request=&tv3_preview=&video=12164

Don't think I said it had anything to do with 1996 either Abbeysider.

[bucko]

Uncertain if Keane is good enough. Definintly shone last year at minor but struggled in this year's U21 semi v Down. Mickey Harte article is a very good read, certainly you can see alot of the reasons for Tyrone's success at senior level. The amount of lads in the first 15 with AI minor, U21 and senior medals, they know an awful lot about winning.
Hope O'Mahoney goes looking at a more defensive orientated half back line next year, I think the emphasis on attacking wing backs the last few years has cost us more than we've won. The awareness in the team to play that tactic (ie: wing forwards dropping back into the space when the wing back goes forward) isn't evident. Would prefer to see half backs marking tightly and winning breaks than going up the field at every oppurtunity.

[AbbeySider]

Don't think I said it had anything to do with 1996 either Abbeysider.

Apologies, I meant that in reference to Lar Naparka's comments Re '96! 

[AbbeySider]

Hope O'Mahoney goes looking at a more defensive orientated half back line next year, I think the emphasis on attacking wing backs the last few years has cost us more than we've won. The awareness in the team to play that tactic (ie: wing forwards dropping back into the space when the wing back goes forward) isn't evident. Would prefer to see half backs marking tightly and winning breaks than going up the field at every oppurtunity.

Amen to that!
Lots of times our centre backs are isolated and you can get crucified in the wide open spaces in Croke park.
Its a good tactic, but it could be better executed as you say if someone filters back to cover.
That said, I have never seen McGarity or any of the Mayo midfielders in recent times back helping out the defence.

[moysider]

Uncertain if Keane is good enough. Definintly shone last year at minor but struggled in this year's U21 semi v Down. Mickey Harte article is a very good read, certainly you can see alot of the reasons for Tyrone's success at senior level. The amount of lads in the first 15 with AI minor, U21 and senior medals, they know an awful lot about winning.
Hope O'Mahoney goes looking at a more defensive orientated half back line next year, I think the emphasis on attacking wing backs the last few years has cost us more than we've won. The awareness in the team to play that tactic (ie: wing forwards dropping back into the space when the wing back goes forward) isn't evident. Would prefer to see half backs marking tightly and winning breaks than going up the field at every oppurtunity.

We ll find out soon enough if Keane is good enough. At least we know who is nt good enough. At least 1 - 1, peno and Sheridans fisted point, should have been prevented by a big man attacking the ball.  No fuss, it would hardly have made the highlights, and game over.

I think we should be looking at a lot of fine tuning for next year. The management team needs to be freshened up too.

With the close season and the FBD giving priority to Colleges it ll be March before we see any realistic Mayo team again. There s really not much time to find players and build a team. But if management go with 'a year older a year wiser' approach next year the result will be the same again. They have to accept there were glaring defiencies in the team this year and address those before we can even hope again.

[mayo51]

read the articles in the   tribune and indo yesterday.in my opinion if any of us believe that we lost to meath because mchale gave an interview or we lost all-irelands in 96 ,97 or 04 and 06 or because of inept reffering, then we will never win anything.the simple reasons we lost are no. 1 playing half backs in the full back line as moysider alluded to,and in fact we had vaughan playing full back and caff playing in the corner which was totall madness.no. 2 playing parsons in f.f and raining high balls down on top of him.moyles should have been pulled left and rightand try and expose his lack of pace.no.3 not winning any breaking ball around the middle of the field which did not seem to be adressed after the galway game.this happened to the minors inthe connacht final but note how dempsey had this problem fixed for the replay.no.4 kilcoyne and oshea going off injured was a big factor in our loss even tho o shea looked frustated at times at the lack of good ball going in to him. to me very little progress was made this year but i still see o rourke continue to write about how great a manager o mahoney is.i guess this is to justify his coloum after the 2004 all ireland when he wrote that the county board should install him immediatly and that it was our only chance of winning an all ireland. i have been following mayo a long time and the only time i have seen a mayo team with the mental toughness necessary ,was  john maughans 96 97 teams. sadly j.om has been unable to instill a never say die attitude in his teams and untill he does sam will continue to evade us.

[bucko]

We ll find out soon enough if Keane is good enough. At least we know who is nt good enough. At least 1 - 1, peno and Sheridans fisted point, should have been prevented by a big man attacking the ball.  No fuss, it would hardly have made the highlights, and game over.

Probably right, but would those opportunities have come to Meath if we'd just broken even in midfield possession? I 'm convinced if we had we'd have won that game with 5-6 points to spare. The glaring deficiencies were in midfield(flagged from the Galway match), half back and half forward lines, the full back line crumbled as a result of persistant pressure. To see Meath players winning nearly all the breaks in the 2nd half and not a red and green jersey within 5 yards was frustrating. Yes, the full back line could have done better, but the outfield performances didn't do them any favours either.

[macdanger2]

I think the hype and pressure thing is overstated - we came from 6 points down to beat the dubs in Croker and against Tyrone in 04, they levelled it with a goal and looked set to push on and win it but instead we ended up winning by 3 points. Why we can do this sometimes and not others is a f*king mystery though!

KMcL and B Gibbons from Knockmore prob deserve a run in the corners during the league next year.

[Barney]

Is McLaughlin a corner back though? Or another wing-back?

I think part of our problem in mdifield came from the failure of our goalkeeper to vary his kick-outs. David Clarke was a big loss.

I don't know much about these kind of things but what would people think of our conditioning? Certainly we seemed to die on our feet in the two big games of the Summer, but were flying later in games during the winter. Was training aimed at the Connacht Final - that being our big target for the year? Or is an athletics coach, and speed centred training not what is needed?

Those that are writing off Keane because of one game are walking into the same trap that we have done in Mayo for years. We need to persevere with these fellas. He is big, strong, and a tight marker. I would give him a chance and expect he will do well for Mayo seniors in the future. I also expect big futures for Robert Hennelly, Cathal Freeman, Shane Nally, James Cafferty and Aidan Walsh from last years minor team. We do have the makings of a good team but it will take continuing patience and time - I suppose at the back of our minds we were aware of it, but underestimated the damage that 2004 and 2006 have done to the likes of Gardiner, Heaney, and McGarrity.

Finally, selectors. I have nothing against either Tommy Lyons or Kieran Gallagher, and couldn't criticise them for anything that they have done but some new voices would be welcome. The dream scenario would be bringing the likes of Noel Connelly, or Peter Forde in but I do not think that the manager would work with such big personalities who people might credit with any success, but blame the manager for failure. I think Forde especially would put a bit of steel into our backs.

We have built a good structure built up. We all have criticisms of senior management but 3 years work has been done which I think we will hopefully see the benefit of in time. We have a good u21 management and minor management in place and players are beginning to come through. Some of course have disappointed but they are getting the experience and it is only when they are 25/26 that we might see the real reward. Hopefully.

[HowAreYeGettinOn]

Forde will be nobody's assistant at this stage. He's been down that road with Maughan before.

Whenever J O'M goes / is pushed, expect Forde to get the call.

[AbbeySider]

Is McLaughlin a corner back though? Or another wing-back?

He has played most of his career in the forwards I think. But he is playing wing back as of late...
He sometimes played full back and full forward for knockmore...

I think part of our problem in mdifield came from the failure of our goalkeeper to vary his kick-outs. David Clarke was a big loss.

What I thought was nuts was that O Malley didnt even aim his kickouts at McGarity.
McGarity was drifting to the Hogan side for the Mayo kickouts and O Malleys kickouts went to the Cusack side towards Heaney.
I couldnt understand that.

I don't know much about these kind of things but what would people think of our conditioning? Certainly we seemed to die on our feet in the two big games of the Summer, but were flying later in games during the winter. Was training aimed at the Connacht Final - that being our big target for the year? Or is an athletics coach, and speed centred training not what is needed?

I had a post a good few pages back regarding this. Between all the lads that had no pre-season and the U21 guys burning out, the effects were shown against Meath and Galway. We were out on our feet on both occasions.

Those that are writing off Keane because of one game are walking into the same trap that we have done in Mayo for years. We need to persevere with these fellas. He is big, strong, and a tight marker.

Lots and lots of games but I wont go there again. But I dont agree with any of that.

I would give him a chance and expect he will do well for Mayo seniors in the future. I also expect big futures for Robert Hennelly, Cathal Freeman, Shane Nally, James Cafferty and Aidan Walsh from last years minor team.

Sadly only two players from that list have any sort of chance IMO. Nalley and Hennelly

We do have the makings of a good team but it will take continuing patience and time - I suppose at the back of our minds we were aware of it, but underestimated the damage that 2004 and 2006 have done to the likes of Gardiner, Heaney, and McGarrity.

It probably has some bearing on things. Certainly our midfield was at sea against Meath.

Finally, selectors. I have nothing against either Tommy Lyons or Kieran Gallagher, and couldn't criticise them for anything that they have done but some new voices would be welcome. The dream scenario would be bringing the likes of Noel Connelly, or Peter Forde in but I do not think that the manager would work with such big personalities who people might credit with any success, but blame the manager for failure. I think Forde especially would put a bit of steel into our backs.

We have built a good structure built up. We all have criticisms of senior management but 3 years work has been done which I think we will hopefully see the benefit of in time. We have a good u21 management and minor management in place and players are beginning to come through. Some of course have disappointed but they are getting the experience and it is only when they are 25/26 that we might see the real reward. Hopefully.

Personally I think we wont see Mayo win an All-Ireland for a long time to come.
The reason I believe this is because the standard of club football in Mayo was not as high as I thought.
We are producing mediocre and average players with the odd exceptional players that seem to carry us.

Ciarian McDonald carried us for years and dragged us to All Ireland finals in 2004 and 2006. There is a couple of players that seem to be carrying the team nowadays too but I dont need to mention them. We need more than a select few of exceptional players to make a big push but sadly I dont think they are in the county.

[muppet]

Not sure Keane is actually big enough for IC full back but I think he could make it as a corner back. FBD next year the time to have a look at that.

As for the minors, a bit harsh writing off Aiden Walsh while he is still a minor on an inferior team to last year. Year after next himself and O'Connor off this years team should come into the picture.

[the Deel Rover]

Time for Mayo to learn some lessons 
Monday, 17 August 2009 
Time to learn some lessons


Kevin McStay

WE made the short journey from Ballina town to the village of Knockmore to witness the latest episode of this recent enough rivalry last weekend.
For all intents and purposes it was a repeat performance of the match in Croke Park that has so occupied Mayo supporters these past few days. Knockmore play the game in much the same way Meath do: well-organised, tough in the tackle, and depending on a few key players to get them over the line. Ballina are easier on the eye and their brand of football has a winning feel about it. But ultimately the townies faded and failed to get the job done.
It was a desperately poor championship match with Knockmore the deserving winners because they wanted this win more than their opponents. It seems such a basic reason to win a game but very often that is all that separates teams. And for me, it was disappointing to see your own team back off when the final few minutes demanded a full-on approach.
And if that was disappointing, two other aspects saddened: first up, the number of cheap shots county players and ex-county players decided to dish out to their 'colleagues' following a summer spent sharing a dressing-room showed a distinct lack of respect for reach other.
And secondly, the appalling performance of referee Michael Daly as he continually blew up both sides for fouls that never occurred but did not bother with persistent fouling. He allowed a Knockmore midfielder aggressively foul on 13 occasions while his Ballina counterpart rowed in with 8 similar offences. Both players stayed on the field ... no problem whatsoever.
And so the club football scene fails to lighten the dark mood that has descended on the county post the Meath defeat. I had the holiday break to consider the bigger picture and attempt to establish absolutes but that is a tricky department. Some of the opening questions that need examining and answers might include:

>    Do we screw up in major games?
>    In the three years that John O'Mahony has been at the helm, has progress been made?
>    What are we to do with under-performing players that we know must form part of the future?
>    Is this a team rebuilding, in transition or in decline?
>    Have we any leaders?

THE notion that Mayo chokes when the games are in the balance is no doubt a legacy of our failure to win finals. So, let's look at this empirically and use the introduction of the Qualifiers in 2001 as our base year.
Teams now have to negotiate an All-Ireland quarter final as part of the requirement to get their hands on Sam and thus, in any given year, a team might play in four 'major fixtures' — the provincial final and the three games that constitute the All Ireland series. Recall also that the latest management is in place since 2007.

Mayo's record is as follows
2001: P1/L1; 2002: P1/L1; 2003: P1/L1; 2004: P5/W3/D1/L1; 2005: P2/L2; 2006: P5/W3/D1/L1; 2007: P0; 2008: P1/L1; 2009: P2/W1/L1
Overall: Played 18/Won 7/Drew 2 and Lost 9. The John O'Mahony led squad have Played 3/Won 1/Lost 2.
This record refutes the idea that Mayo are unable to win major games in Croke Park; indeed the opponents' argument is extremely weak if you consider Tyrone, Dublin, Galway and Laois are among the teams we have defeated.
The current side has a less convincing record as the single win in four major encounters indicates. The teams beaten in championship football include Galway, Roscommon, Sligo, London, New York and Cavan, which is not exactly earth- shattering. But this was during a supposed rebuilding phase; more of that anon.
In summary, the current squad have won a Connacht title and reached a NFL final and that represents progress for the current squad that JOM is shaping. It's not at the pace we might have wanted but progress nonetheless.
There are a few players in the current squad that really are good enough to be starting players. In particular, I mention Conor Mortimer, Tom Parsons and David Clarke.
I understand this is a very subjective area but it is widely accepted JOM is as good as is out there when it comes to man-management and getting the best out of players at his disposal.
How then has a situation arisen whereby our consistently top scorer in league and championship football is rated our number eight starter for the forward division (number nine if Barry Moran had been fit enough to start v Meath)?
Put aside the showmanship and the misses, the hair and the tattoos for a moment and judge him on football alone. I should state here and now that the use of the Shrule attacker realised scores and other assists this championship year — thus management are fully vindicated by their actions.
But the question remains: why has he tumbled down the rankings and can management, working with the player, not turn this situation around?
Tom Parsons is another player that really should be bursting on to the scene. Plenty of other counties have their young players making the breakthrough and this guy should be to the forefront of our midfield plans this year and into the future.
And if he was selected out of position against Meath how did he fail to contest high ball in the opening 20 minutes and make it stick inside? If a player of his size and ability is properly focused on doing his bit, there is just no way a man four or five inches smaller and much lighter should emerge with the ball. But that assumes you are really going flat out for the ball.
David Clarke is the best goalkeeper in the county by a mile. End of. Yes, he has been out injured and is only recently back in business. But he's the best, so get him in between the sticks. Today.

Look at the match programme for our quarter-final: I counted more than half the team associated with the Maughan/Moran regimes. They included Higgins, Gardiner, Moran, McGarrity, Heaney, Harte, T Mortimer and Dillon.
There is nothing wrong with that, there must be a link with previous teams as debutants need the experienced players to help to bed them into championship life. But don't call it re-building — it is obviously transition and more of the same will arise in 2010.
The most important question for me is the one of leadership and surely leaders should come from those that know the ropes?
In my time you had Carney and Noone, Kilgallon and Padden, Burke and Lowry up front to keep everybody breathing when things got tight. Later, McHale, Nallen and Connelly would emerge to help ease the tension of the 90s. But who is driving on the team these days? Who is leading by example? Alan Dillon? Anybody else lads?
The critical periods in our quarter-final defeat to Meath were flagged by a total lack of leadership when Mayo really needed players to stand up and get the win.
They went missing, played from behind, and somehow managed to hide without being spotted. And, when the final whistle came, jogged into the comfort of the dressing room where it appears nobody takes these guys on.
I read recently that the Dublin management decided to dispense with a debrief of the defeat to Tyrone in 2008 and decided a whitewash of that game was best for all concerned. Twelve months later they repeated the shambles with bells on.
Modern management has two mechanisms for review: 'Lessons Identified' and 'Lessons Learned'.
Why the two? You can identify all the lessons you want from all the various campaigns you want, and God knows this column and many others like it have been doing that over the years. But if you fail to learn those lessons, then I guess you are destined to repeat the mistakes. The Mayo 'Lessons Identified' section is jammed with after-action reviews, it's the 'Lessons Learned' file I'm interested in.

[AbbeySider]

Not sure Keane is actually big enough for IC full back but I think he could make it as a corner back. FBD next year the time to have a look at that.

As for the minors, a bit harsh writing off Aiden Walsh while he is still a minor on an inferior team to last year. Year after next himself and O'Connor off this years team should come into the picture.

Cillian is 17... He in minor again next year. I woulnt be in favour of seeing him play county for a few years yet.
Aiden Walsh is a good free taker... on his day; but I have seen him on very bad days. I was disappointed with him against Roscommon in Salthill and in a couple of club games but I know he can do better.

Mayo have not had a good distance free taker since Maurice Sheridan so maybe there is a place for him in a few years.

I wouldnt mind seeing Pariac O Connor (Cillians older brother) get a shot as he is one of the best free takers I have seen at club level. He is also contributes well from play and is having a fine season.

[Lar Naparka]

I think the hype and pressure thing is overstated - we came from 6 points down to beat the dubs in Croker and against Tyrone in 04, they levelled it with a goal and looked set to push on and win it but instead we ended up winning by 3 points. Why we can do this sometimes and not others is a f*king mystery though!

KMcL and B Gibbons from Knockmore prob deserve a run in the corners during the league next year.

It sure is a mystery and it doesn't look as if we will get to the bottom of it any time soon. But if we look outside the county for answers, we may find that we are not alone. I do agree with Moysider when he says piseogs and hoodoos etc. have nothing to do with it.
Throughout this decade there have been many times where you'd have a steward's enquiry if we were talking racing. It is easy to overlook the fact that Cork imploded against Kerry in the final of 2007. Kerry won pulling up and the margin was 10 points. Yet Cork had earlier run them very close in the Munster final. (1-15 to 1-13)
Kerry had bombed against Meath in a semi in 2001, (?)  totally against form and Meath in turn collapsed against Galway in that final. They also had gone in as short odds favourites in that game.
Dublin could match Mayo anytime for unexpectedly falling apart. The lark of bonding with their fans on the Hill has backfired most of the time and the team is hyped up out of all proportion. I think it's very reasonable to say that the Dubs suffer from the pressure of fans' expectations and the attention of the media in equal measure.
There have many other examples where 'formlines' were very wide of the mark but I am only mentioning the most spectacular ones.
I think we had no hangups about history or anything else back in '96 but the media attention and the fans did get to the team in the drawn game. How else could one explain the collapse in form as we led by six points with only a quarter or less to go?
The Mayo lads were mighty that day and only the Meath full back line had any sort of control over their opponents.
But that was also the year that the media turned the final into a big time event and the spotlight was turned on the players. Meath ad their fans had recent experience of winning finals but the hype in Mayo passed all bounds.
Maughan's pleas to supporters to tone things down and ease the pressure on the lads fell on deaf ears.
Things were not quite as bad in '04 but again Maughan felt the need to call for restraint and again he was largely unheeded. The same was the case in '06 when Mickey Moran asked for his team to be left alone to get on with the preparations.
I don't know what Paul Caffrey or Pat Gilroy asked Dubs' fans to do but I imagine they would feel the same as Maughan and Moran.
This year, I feel O'Mahony and his team made good progress and should have gone at least one step further.
To have any chance against Kerry, they'd need to have beaten Meath out of sight in spite of woeful reffing and the hand of history and anything else you can think of. Sure, there are lessons to be learned but I think some sort of start has been made.