Leinster hurling final - DUBLIN V Kilkenny

[awfulynice]

Maybe they were off the pace because they weren't let play Reillers. Maybe that never occurred to you.  Or maybe Kilkenny are sliding a tad. I think they will win the all-ireland this year- but I actually can see a few cracks in their team for the coming years.

I don't think Kilkenny will win the All Ireland this year. I have no real rationale behind that statement, but I just get the feeling that perhaps they are a little bit off the boil. Maybe they will find another gear in August and September, but I think they are primed for the right team to take them. It could be Tipp, if Tipp learn the ruthlessness that you need to put teams away when you are on top, or it could well be Cork. Galway and Waterford will also suddenly be sniffing the air.

Im afraid id completely disagree with you on that statement. I think KK will win the AI this year.

Galway they have already beaten...missing 5 players, with Galway completely on form so i just cant see Galway being able to stick with them in an AI final

Tipp again threw everything at KK, they have shown twice this year that they fade out of games for 15 - 20 mins, do that against KK and you find yourself 10 - 15 points down as they dont fade out like other teams

Cork are in no shape to challenge KK at the moment. I would find it incredible if they are collecting liam mccarthy in september.

Waterford. Perhaps the best suited team to match KK, they have a point to prove, beat them in the league and can improve further. It will take a lot for them to beat KK but i think they might just have a chance

But no matter what way you put it, KK have beaten Tipp and Galway by 5-6 points, and hammered Cork in the league, albeit the strike may have hampered Corks performance.

[INDIANA]

Waterford in my view aren't good enough to beat kilkenny. Think they'd get within 5/6 points but won't beat them.
Tipp if they sort out the defence would have the best chance in my view.

[Reillers]

Kilkenny though were a bit of the pace. They looked drained and a bit tired to be honest. Not like Kilkenny at all.

Thanks for that Reillers - uncharacteristically qualify the faintest of praise..

What are you moaning about this time? 
What is wrong with what I just said. Absolutely nothing, but you, yet again, are looking to stirr more shite. Not like I should be surprised. Moaning instead of talking about the game..shock horror.

I'm 'moaning' about your continued GPA-Foot-in-mouth syndrome - go and shi&e with your KK are off the pace - the 27 point humilation your bunch of strikers took must still hurt.

If you want to go WUM go off to AFR.

I didn't say a word about the GPA, yet you moaning again, looking for a fight, grow up will ya ffs.
Kilkenny were off the pace, clearly you didn't see, well understand the game, but Kilkenny were off pace anyone, (well apparently not) who knows anything about the game would have seen that.
Dublin were great but ffs would ya grow up or go complain and WUM somewhere else. AFR are full of them, you'd fit in well. Anyone with a pair of eyes could have seen that KK were off pace against Dublin.  But you, yet again, looking for a fight instead of wanting to talk about hurling. Not surprised at this stage.

You continue to post off a badly-rehearsed script.

I'm not 'looking for a fight' - you posted that Dublin's performance was due to KK being 'tired' and KK not playing well - your standard refrain for anyone who disagrees with you is 'You know nothing about Hurling' - it's funny how no one else be it analyst or journalist has commented on this KK tiredness at the start of July - so I'll re-iterate my point that it was an ungracious comment from you - same as your comment about Offaly on Friday..

All I want to do is talk hurling - if you continue to talk shi*e though, I'm going to call you on it

Did I say that? No, I didn't, and I made it crystal clear in the post under it.
Look whenever you and Bud (who can't go a post without moaning about Cork) are ready to stop crying and bitching and looking for fights. Maybe then we can talk about the game, but at the moment you're too obsessed with being right, and getting the upper hand. Like I said if you want to post more of the crap you've been posting instead of talking about the game, go do it on AFR there's plenty of them there I hear. Mostly WUMs and people who moan about almost everything, you'd fit in just fine.

[heffo]

Kilkenny though were a bit of the pace. They looked drained and a bit tired to be honest. Not like Kilkenny at all.

Thanks for that Reillers - uncharacteristically qualify the faintest of praise..

What are you moaning about this time? 
What is wrong with what I just said. Absolutely nothing, but you, yet again, are looking to stirr more shite. Not like I should be surprised. Moaning instead of talking about the game..shock horror.

I'm 'moaning' about your continued GPA-Foot-in-mouth syndrome - go and shi&e with your KK are off the pace - the 27 point humilation your bunch of strikers took must still hurt.

If you want to go WUM go off to AFR.

I didn't say a word about the GPA, yet you moaning again, looking for a fight, grow up will ya ffs.
Kilkenny were off the pace, clearly you didn't see, well understand the game, but Kilkenny were off pace anyone, (well apparently not) who knows anything about the game would have seen that.
Dublin were great but ffs would ya grow up or go complain and WUM somewhere else. AFR are full of them, you'd fit in well. Anyone with a pair of eyes could have seen that KK were off pace against Dublin.  But you, yet again, looking for a fight instead of wanting to talk about hurling. Not surprised at this stage.

You continue to post off a badly-rehearsed script.

I'm not 'looking for a fight' - you posted that Dublin's performance was due to KK being 'tired' and KK not playing well - your standard refrain for anyone who disagrees with you is 'You know nothing about Hurling' - it's funny how no one else be it analyst or journalist has commented on this KK tiredness at the start of July - so I'll re-iterate my point that it was an ungracious comment from you - same as your comment about Offaly on Friday..

All I want to do is talk hurling - if you continue to talk shi*e though, I'm going to call you on it

Did I say that? No, I didn't, and I made it crystal clear in the post under it.
Look whenever you and Bud (who can't go a post without moaning about Cork) are ready to stop crying and bitching and looking for fights. Maybe then we can talk about the game, but at the moment you're too obsessed with being right, and getting the upper hand. Like I said if you want to post more of the crap you've been posting instead of talking about the game, go do it on AFR there's plenty of them there I hear. Mostly WUMs and people who moan about almost everything, you'd fit in just fine.

I am talking about hurling Reillers lad - you're going off on a solo run which no-one has alluded to and ungraciously putting Dublin's performance down to KK being 'tired'

[Reillers]

Kilkenny though were a bit of the pace. They looked drained and a bit tired to be honest. Not like Kilkenny at all.

Thanks for that Reillers - uncharacteristically qualify the faintest of praise..

What are you moaning about this time? 
What is wrong with what I just said. Absolutely nothing, but you, yet again, are looking to stirr more shite. Not like I should be surprised. Moaning instead of talking about the game..shock horror.

I'm 'moaning' about your continued GPA-Foot-in-mouth syndrome - go and shi&e with your KK are off the pace - the 27 point humilation your bunch of strikers took must still hurt.

If you want to go WUM go off to AFR.

I didn't say a word about the GPA, yet you moaning again, looking for a fight, grow up will ya ffs.
Kilkenny were off the pace, clearly you didn't see, well understand the game, but Kilkenny were off pace anyone, (well apparently not) who knows anything about the game would have seen that.
Dublin were great but ffs would ya grow up or go complain and WUM somewhere else. AFR are full of them, you'd fit in well. Anyone with a pair of eyes could have seen that KK were off pace against Dublin.  But you, yet again, looking for a fight instead of wanting to talk about hurling. Not surprised at this stage.

You continue to post off a badly-rehearsed script.

I'm not 'looking for a fight' - you posted that Dublin's performance was due to KK being 'tired' and KK not playing well - your standard refrain for anyone who disagrees with you is 'You know nothing about Hurling' - it's funny how no one else be it analyst or journalist has commented on this KK tiredness at the start of July - so I'll re-iterate my point that it was an ungracious comment from you - same as your comment about Offaly on Friday..

All I want to do is talk hurling - if you continue to talk shi*e though, I'm going to call you on it

Did I say that? No, I didn't, and I made it crystal clear in the post under it.
Look whenever you and Bud (who can't go a post without moaning about Cork) are ready to stop crying and bitching and looking for fights. Maybe then we can talk about the game, but at the moment you're too obsessed with being right, and getting the upper hand. Like I said if you want to post more of the crap you've been posting instead of talking about the game, go do it on AFR there's plenty of them there I hear. Mostly WUMs and people who moan about almost everything, you'd fit in just fine.

I am talking about hurling Reillers lad - you're going off on a solo run which no-one has alluded to and ungraciously putting Dublin's performance down to KK being 'tired'

No you're not, you're highlighting one line from my post, taking it completley out of context and trying to stirr shite with it. I've made it clear that I thought Dublin were excellent, and if that's not clear from the post where you highlighted the line, it's perfectly clear from the one bellow it. So just stop. Like I said, if you want to continue to do what you're doing feck off to AFR or something, you'd fit in well. Mainly people who WUM and cry about everything, all the time (or so I hear.) You'd love it.

[heffo]

Kilkenny though were a bit of the pace. They looked drained and a bit tired to be honest. Not like Kilkenny at all.

Thanks for that Reillers - uncharacteristically qualify the faintest of praise..

What are you moaning about this time? 
What is wrong with what I just said. Absolutely nothing, but you, yet again, are looking to stirr more shite. Not like I should be surprised. Moaning instead of talking about the game..shock horror.

I'm 'moaning' about your continued GPA-Foot-in-mouth syndrome - go and shi&e with your KK are off the pace - the 27 point humilation your bunch of strikers took must still hurt.

If you want to go WUM go off to AFR.

I didn't say a word about the GPA, yet you moaning again, looking for a fight, grow up will ya ffs.
Kilkenny were off the pace, clearly you didn't see, well understand the game, but Kilkenny were off pace anyone, (well apparently not) who knows anything about the game would have seen that.
Dublin were great but ffs would ya grow up or go complain and WUM somewhere else. AFR are full of them, you'd fit in well. Anyone with a pair of eyes could have seen that KK were off pace against Dublin.  But you, yet again, looking for a fight instead of wanting to talk about hurling. Not surprised at this stage.

You continue to post off a badly-rehearsed script.

I'm not 'looking for a fight' - you posted that Dublin's performance was due to KK being 'tired' and KK not playing well - your standard refrain for anyone who disagrees with you is 'You know nothing about Hurling' - it's funny how no one else be it analyst or journalist has commented on this KK tiredness at the start of July - so I'll re-iterate my point that it was an ungracious comment from you - same as your comment about Offaly on Friday..

All I want to do is talk hurling - if you continue to talk shi*e though, I'm going to call you on it

Did I say that? No, I didn't, and I made it crystal clear in the post under it.
Look whenever you and Bud (who can't go a post without moaning about Cork) are ready to stop crying and bitching and looking for fights. Maybe then we can talk about the game, but at the moment you're too obsessed with being right, and getting the upper hand. Like I said if you want to post more of the crap you've been posting instead of talking about the game, go do it on AFR there's plenty of them there I hear. Mostly WUMs and people who moan about almost everything, you'd fit in just fine.

I am talking about hurling Reillers lad - you're going off on a solo run which no-one has alluded to and ungraciously putting Dublin's performance down to KK being 'tired'

No you're not, you're highlighting one line from my post, taking it completley out of context and trying to stirr shite with it. I've made it clear that I thought Dublin were excellent, and if that's not clear from the post where you highlighted the line, it's perfectly clear from the one bellow it. So just stop. Like I said, if you want to continue to do what you're doing feck off to AFR or something, you'd fit in well. Mainly people who WUM and cry about everything, all the time (or so I hear.) You'd love it.

Will you come off that script for once?

You said Dublin were excellent and then qualified that comment by saying KK were tired and weren't up to their normal standard as they were 'tired'

[bottlethrower7]

You said Dublin were excellent and then qualified that comment by saying KK were tired and weren't up to their normal standard as they were 'tired'

I think its quite evident that was the case. KK did look lethargic (but not for a minute like they weren't trying - they were, hard).

But Dublin were playing with 1 hand tied behind their back in the shape of those negative Daly tactics. I just wonder when people are going to call enough on this. If Dublin contest the next 3 Leinster finals against Kilkenny and deploy the same tactics (these tactics cost Dublin vital league points against KK and Tipp in my view), they'll come up short in a similar fashion every time. At what stage does an honourable defeat become tired? At what point to people ask that the most talented bunch of hurlers in Dublin since 1991 be let off the leash and be allowed to express themselves as they no doubt can? At what point do these tactics stop being 'safety first' from a Dublin point of view and be viewed as self-serving from an Anthony Daly point of view (because its starting to look that way to me now).

Kilkenny scored 2-18 against Dublin while playing those tactics. Dublin scored 0-18. 2 things I think we can safely ascertain from the situation, had Dublin not employed McCaffrey in such a negative role. Kilkenny would have scored slightly more (really, they wouldn't have scored a whole lot more). Dublin would have scored a lot more. Would it have been enough to win? Maybe. Maybe not. Would Dublin have had a chance of winning? Yes, absolutely. Did Dublin have a chance of winning yesterday? In my view, no.

I'm willing to give Daly the benefit of the doubt though, it being his first year and all. He has instilled a great sense of self-belief in this set of players, which is all the more remarkable given the tactics he then asks them to go out and employ. He is a fine manager in that regard, but he needs to put a little more faith in his players' abilities. They are fast, fit, strong and can hurl. The need to be allowed make use of all these attributes in a manner that will allow them go out with a chance of winning games.

But, if this is going to become the norm for Daly, and Dublin are to suffer honourable defeat after honourable defeat, then I don't think that can be classed as progress.

In my opinion.

I'm delighted the game was competitive, but one couldn't help get the sense that KK were fending off Dublin at arms length. Take the 10 minutes after half-time as a classic example of this. Dublin dominated that period, clawed the deficit back from 6 to 3 points. Then in a 2 minute spell, KK knocked over 3 points at ease.

The game should bring on Dublin a lot, but its time to stop being patronising and to allow the players they have to chase that undoubted ambition they have. They're capable of great things in my view. Not all-Ireland glory. Yet anyway, but they have what it takes to make it to (maybe) a semi-final.

[Reillers]

Kilkenny though were a bit of the pace. They looked drained and a bit tired to be honest. Not like Kilkenny at all.

Thanks for that Reillers - uncharacteristically qualify the faintest of praise..

What are you moaning about this time? 
What is wrong with what I just said. Absolutely nothing, but you, yet again, are looking to stirr more shite. Not like I should be surprised. Moaning instead of talking about the game..shock horror.

I'm 'moaning' about your continued GPA-Foot-in-mouth syndrome - go and shi&e with your KK are off the pace - the 27 point humilation your bunch of strikers took must still hurt.

If you want to go WUM go off to AFR.

I didn't say a word about the GPA, yet you moaning again, looking for a fight, grow up will ya ffs.
Kilkenny were off the pace, clearly you didn't see, well understand the game, but Kilkenny were off pace anyone, (well apparently not) who knows anything about the game would have seen that.
Dublin were great but ffs would ya grow up or go complain and WUM somewhere else. AFR are full of them, you'd fit in well. Anyone with a pair of eyes could have seen that KK were off pace against Dublin.  But you, yet again, looking for a fight instead of wanting to talk about hurling. Not surprised at this stage.

You continue to post off a badly-rehearsed script.

I'm not 'looking for a fight' - you posted that Dublin's performance was due to KK being 'tired' and KK not playing well - your standard refrain for anyone who disagrees with you is 'You know nothing about Hurling' - it's funny how no one else be it analyst or journalist has commented on this KK tiredness at the start of July - so I'll re-iterate my point that it was an ungracious comment from you - same as your comment about Offaly on Friday..

All I want to do is talk hurling - if you continue to talk shi*e though, I'm going to call you on it

Did I say that? No, I didn't, and I made it crystal clear in the post under it.
Look whenever you and Bud (who can't go a post without moaning about Cork) are ready to stop crying and bitching and looking for fights. Maybe then we can talk about the game, but at the moment you're too obsessed with being right, and getting the upper hand. Like I said if you want to post more of the crap you've been posting instead of talking about the game, go do it on AFR there's plenty of them there I hear. Mostly WUMs and people who moan about almost everything, you'd fit in just fine.

I am talking about hurling Reillers lad - you're going off on a solo run which no-one has alluded to and ungraciously putting Dublin's performance down to KK being 'tired'

No you're not, you're highlighting one line from my post, taking it completley out of context and trying to stirr shite with it. I've made it clear that I thought Dublin were excellent, and if that's not clear from the post where you highlighted the line, it's perfectly clear from the one bellow it. So just stop. Like I said, if you want to continue to do what you're doing feck off to AFR or something, you'd fit in well. Mainly people who WUM and cry about everything, all the time (or so I hear.) You'd love it.

Will you come off that script for once?

You said Dublin were excellent and then qualified that comment by saying KK were tired and weren't up to their normal standard as they were 'tired'

And they did look tired. FFS you're too busy trying to stirr crap to realise that that's what most people here are saying. If you think that that was Kilkenny at their best then you really don't have a clue. Would you stop trying to start something and get back on topic. Like I said, if you're not willing to do that someone like you would fit in well at AFR.

[INDIANA]

You said Dublin were excellent and then qualified that comment by saying KK were tired and weren't up to their normal standard as they were 'tired'

I think its quite evident that was the case. KK did look lethargic (but not for a minute like they weren't trying - they were, hard).

But Dublin were playing with 1 hand tied behind their back in the shape of those negative Daly tactics. I just wonder when people are going to call enough on this. If Dublin contest the next 3 Leinster finals against Kilkenny and deploy the same tactics (these tactics cost Dublin vital league points against KK and Tipp in my view), they'll come up short in a similar fashion every time. At what stage does an honourable defeat become tired? At what point to people ask that the most talented bunch of hurlers in Dublin since 1991 be let off the leash and be allowed to express themselves as they no doubt can? At what point do these tactics stop being 'safety first' from a Dublin point of view and be viewed as self-serving from an Anthony Daly point of view (because its starting to look that way to me now).

Kilkenny scored 2-18 against Dublin while playing those tactics. Dublin scored 0-18. 2 things I think we can safely ascertain from the situation, had Dublin not employed McCaffrey in such a negative role. Kilkenny would have scored slightly more (really, they wouldn't have scored a whole lot more). Dublin would have scored a lot more. Would it have been enough to win? Maybe. Maybe not. Would Dublin have had a chance of winning? Yes, absolutely. Did Dublin have a chance of winning yesterday? In my view, no.

I'm willing to give Daly the benefit of the doubt though, it being his first year and all. He has instilled a great sense of self-belief in this set of players, which is all the more remarkable given the tactics he then asks them to go out and employ. He is a fine manager in that regard, but he needs to put a little more faith in his players' abilities. They are fast, fit, strong and can hurl. The need to be allowed make use of all these attributes in a manner that will allow them go out with a chance of winning games.

But, if this is going to become the norm for Daly, and Dublin are to suffer honourable defeat after honourable defeat, then I don't think that can be classed as progress.

In my opinion.

I'm delighted the game was competitive, but one couldn't help get the sense that KK were fending off Dublin at arms length. Take the 10 minutes after half-time as a classic example of this. Dublin dominated that period, clawed the deficit back from 6 to 3 points. Then in a 2 minute spell, KK knocked over 3 points at ease.

The game should bring on Dublin a lot, but its time to stop being patronising and to allow the players they have to chase that undoubted ambition they have. They're capable of great things in my view. Not all-Ireland glory. Yet anyway, but they have what it takes to make it to (maybe) a semi-final.

Too much danger of kilkenny ending the game in 10 mins. The current kilkenny team have never been beaten 15 on 15 by anyone. Even Cork in 2005 used a tactical plan to beat them and a different style of play. The thing you're overlooking is why the extra man didn't work as well as it could have.
Because the delivery from the defence wasn't good enough. The amount of times dublin played the ball to the wrong side of the pitch in the first half was incredible. Probably due to nerves. But the game was lost in the first half.
I was in nowlan Park earlier this year when they used the same tactic. The difference was they played the ball correctly out of defence.
Dublin are still missing 2 of their very best hurlers -Ronan Fallon and Ross O Carroll. If we had those and more options on a puckout maybe then we can go 15 on 15. But i think he got yesterday spot on. Winning aerial posession in the half forwards is still our biggest problem. That I believe decided Daly's tactics.

[milltown row]

i'm for this tactic of deploying an extra man in defence against a team of Kilkenny's skill. players need confidence, and had they been blown out of the water in the first ten minutes then the game would have been a disaster for Dublin going into the next match.

maybe with ten minutes to go you bring the extra man back into the forwards to see if he can get a score or two but 15 on 15 against Kilkenny is madness.

lets judge Dublin over the 3 years Daly has them and see if they have improved. certainly they have do so already.

[nrico2006]

I see their is great structures in place in Dublin since the mid 90's.  Is Gerard O'Connor from Tyrone still involved with the hurling development in Dublin?

[heffo]

Is Gerard O'Connor from Tyrone still involved with the hurling development in Dublin?

Not just Hurling - he's the county games manager.

[nrico2006]

Thanks Heffo, just was wondering what role he currently had and what his role entailed? 

[heffo]

Thanks Heffo, just was wondering what role he currently had and what his role entailed? 

Don't have his exact spec, but among other things he devises & organises coaching courses and would liase with clubs on them..

[bottlethrower7]

Too much danger of kilkenny ending the game in 10 mins. The current kilkenny team have never been beaten 15 on 15 by anyone. Even Cork in 2005 used a tactical plan to beat them and a different style of play.

thats an interesting point. I'll need to think about that one. But, with Cork in '04, I think they'd have lost that game anyway. Yes, Cork did have their running game, it worked quite well for them when they got it right, but at the time of that all-Ireland final, Kilkenny were a team very much on the wane. They had been beaten already that year, had to come through the back door, and seem to tire all the more with every game. They could have lost to Clare and Waterford along the way, stumbling across the finish line in both cases. In the final Cork were much fresher. They had a serious containment plan in the first half of that final (when KK had the wind). KK couldn't unlock them at all (their one chance was a goal opportunity that presented itself to DJ but Eddie Brennan managed to scupper it). Anyway, the point being that although Cork did have their tactics right that day for sure, I couldn't ever see Kilkenny winning that game. And I'm not just saying that with the power of hindsight - I felt it before the game. I don't think it was meant to be.

I guess Kilkenny haven't lost a whole lot of matches in the last few years to its hard to assess one way or other whether tactics play a part. I don't get the impression its a big thing with Cody himself. They adopt an aggressive, play it as you see it, type game, but theres no discernable game plan as such. They have faith that every man can win his own ball, and take it from there. And anytime anyone has deployed that extra man back tactic against Kilkenny, Kilkenny have never sent the spare back out the field to pick up the loose man (some teams do).

Back to the Cork thing though, that tactic differed greatly from that of Dublin on sunday in the sense that it wasn't a negative containment-type tactic. Cork's was a plan of how to win the game. Dublin's was how not to lose by too much.