The 'unionist minority'

[Roger]

It always makes me chuckle how people see Fianna [sic] Gael and Unionism as natural bedfellows. Is this not the party of the likes of Eoin O'Duffy and Richard Mulcahy? It's much more likely that Unionism would have found itself frozen out of any coalition negotiations - the price it would have demanded would have to be, well, excessive to the Nationalist spirit.

It's hard to predict where the Unionist parties never mind the votes would go in the event of ending the Union and being merged with the ROI.  In the case above it looks like Unionists are not wanted and would need to change their outlook substantially to be accepted in any coalition.  The flip side to that is whilst they might never be accepted in a coalition government in the Republic, would they then not have the ability to topple governments on a regular basis unless the ROI parties realigned into 1 or 2 parties max??

The republican appearance of FF has always been very off putting to unionists however they seemed to put forward policies economic policies that appeared stronger in late 80s, 90s, and early 2000s that were a lot more attractive than Devalera's caricatured frugal lifestyle on your liberated homestead.  Having spoken with a number of people from Donegal that would traditionally be seen as trapped inside the Republic, they said they voted for FF as it was the business party.  From only passive interest/understanding of the Political parties, I would have viewed the PDs as being the least worst party.

[ardmhachaabu]

According to these statistics the population of the 26 counties after 1921 declined from 7%.  Sorry Roger comparing like with like on this one is incorrect.  The proportion of Nationalists in the North post-partition far outweighed the proportion of unionists in the south.

The comparison was about the one-sided interference in affairs of the other's state.  I believe it to be relevant to the discussion and the unionists lack of will to deal with the Eire state or even consider it with any interest.  Unionists aren't interested in the place so why do people feel frustrated that they lack desire to unnecessarily (prematurely at best) "negotiate" their own demise with the place? 

It's in their best interests to do so in the grand scheme of things when you look at Europe and what Europe wants.  An agreed Ireland (to borrow a phrase) would reap the benefits of EU finding as well as the increase of inward investment.  There are a lot of people worldwide who would be prepared to fund such a bold political project.  I accept it could take a generation or 2 to get to that point.  Ireland is already treated as one unit by the EU, borders are increasingly irrelevant in Europe and as the EU further expands will become even less relevant.  When I say that it's inevitable, I mean it from a pragmatic political viewpoint and not some kind of misguided patriotism.

Europe is irrevant in terms of NI's constitutional position as an integral part of the UK.  If pragmatic politics is selling your nationality because other states will pay for it to happen then you can keep that. I personally couldn't give a toss what Europe wants for NI on this matter or is prepared to fund if it gets it. I'd be certain that there will be no change to the constitutional position of NI until NI consents to any such change, and that the EU will have nothing to do with it.

Ostrich politics.

[lynchbhoy]

It always makes me chuckle how people see Fianna [sic] Gael and Unionism as natural bedfellows. Is this not the party of the likes of Eoin O'Duffy and Richard Mulcahy? It's much more likely that Unionism would have found itself frozen out of any coalition negotiations - the price it would have demanded would have to be, well, excessive to the Nationalist spirit.

thats the thing, people are hung up on what things WERE decades ago, institutions, parties and ideals change with generations.
for example There is no longer the mad push for the united Ireland from nationalists in the north as they are no longer persecuted etc to the same effect they once were.
From what I have heard inthe past couple of years, there has been serious deposition and negotiation between FG and one stream of unionists, though not sure which (prob not the dup)
its not that the unionists arenot wanted, people just wont care about them or what they are , no more than they will care about the nationalists.
People will just feel some kind of contentment when Ireland is reunified.
However to do this, the majority must first swing, the world enonomy must bein good health as must the british, Irish , EU and us economies.
the British will look to jettison their outpost back to Ireland and at the same time they must leave industry, plus the us and EU must set up industry either side of the border - thus sweetening the deal for southern people as well.
FG and unionist party has a ring to it ...

[Roger]

According to these statistics the population of the 26 counties after 1921 declined from 7%.  Sorry Roger comparing like with like on this one is incorrect.  The proportion of Nationalists in the North post-partition far outweighed the proportion of unionists in the south.

The comparison was about the one-sided interference in affairs of the other's state.  I believe it to be relevant to the discussion and the unionists lack of will to deal with the Eire state or even consider it with any interest.  Unionists aren't interested in the place so why do people feel frustrated that they lack desire to unnecessarily (prematurely at best) "negotiate" their own demise with the place? 

It's in their best interests to do so in the grand scheme of things when you look at Europe and what Europe wants.  An agreed Ireland (to borrow a phrase) would reap the benefits of EU finding as well as the increase of inward investment.  There are a lot of people worldwide who would be prepared to fund such a bold political project.  I accept it could take a generation or 2 to get to that point.  Ireland is already treated as one unit by the EU, borders are increasingly irrelevant in Europe and as the EU further expands will become even less relevant.  When I say that it's inevitable, I mean it from a pragmatic political viewpoint and not some kind of misguided patriotism.

Europe is irrevant in terms of NI's constitutional position as an integral part of the UK.  If pragmatic politics is selling your nationality because other states will pay for it to happen then you can keep that. I personally couldn't give a toss what Europe wants for NI on this matter or is prepared to fund if it gets it. I'd be certain that there will be no change to the constitutional position of NI until NI consents to any such change, and that the EU will have nothing to do with it.

Ostrich politics.

Europe is important but not relevant concerning the sovereignty of countries within it.  If Europe wanted ROI to reunify with UK would you consider the obvious ROI response as Ostrich Politics?

[deiseach]

It always makes me chuckle how people see Fianna [sic] Gael and Unionism as natural bedfellows. Is this not the party of the likes of Eoin O'Duffy and Richard Mulcahy? It's much more likely that Unionism would have found itself frozen out of any coalition negotiations - the price it would have demanded would have to be, well, excessive to the Nationalist spirit.

thats the thing, people are hung up on what things WERE decades ago, institutions, parties and ideals change with generations.
for example There is no longer the mad push for the united Ireland from nationalists in the north as they are no longer persecuted etc to the same effect they once were.
From what I have heard inthe past couple of years, there has been serious deposition and negotiation between FG and one stream of unionists, though not sure which (prob not the dup)
its not that the unionists arenot wanted, people just wont care about them or what they are , no more than they will care about the nationalists.

A fair point, and FG is different to the FG of the 1940's what with all the Just Society stuff. I'm not quite sure it has changed sufficiently to sit comfortably as a Unionist party though. Try telling the kind of people who vote for Jimmy Deenihan that a vote for FG is a vote for the Union!

[Roger]

[However to do this, the majority must first swing,

Agree.

the world enonomy must bein good health as must the british, Irish , EU and us economies.

If this is not the case then the will of the majority would be denied?

the British will look to jettison their outpost back to Ireland

HMG is committed to this if that is what is wanted by the majority in NI.

and at the same time they must leave industry, plus the us and EU must set up industry either side of the border - thus sweetening the deal for southern people as well.

If the ROI doesn't like it, then don't vote for it.  Why "must" UK, USA and EU pour money into this fantastic begging bowl? So that people "feel some kind of contentment"? I would fully understand the UK, USA and EU advising the people of this new state to go and have a good shite.

[deiseach]

Europe is important but not relevant concerning the sovereignty of countries within it.  If Europe wanted ROI to reunify with UK would you consider the obvious ROI response as Ostrich Politics?

Hard to argue with that. If someone guaranteed us that all our economic woes would be solved by rejoining the Union, I'd still say no.

[Roger]

Europe is important but not relevant concerning the sovereignty of countries within it.  If Europe wanted ROI to reunify with UK would you consider the obvious ROI response as Ostrich Politics?

Hard to argue with that. If someone guaranteed us that all our economic woes would be solved by rejoining the Union, I'd still say no.

Fair enough I say.  But Unionists have to put up with the equivalent regularly.

[deiseach]

Fair enough I say.  But Unionists have to put up with the equivalent regularly.

Me heart bleeds

[lynchbhoy]

It always makes me chuckle how people see Fianna [sic] Gael and Unionism as natural bedfellows. Is this not the party of the likes of Eoin O'Duffy and Richard Mulcahy? It's much more likely that Unionism would have found itself frozen out of any coalition negotiations - the price it would have demanded would have to be, well, excessive to the Nationalist spirit.

thats the thing, people are hung up on what things WERE decades ago, institutions, parties and ideals change with generations.
for example There is no longer the mad push for the united Ireland from nationalists in the north as they are no longer persecuted etc to the same effect they once were.
From what I have heard inthe past couple of years, there has been serious deposition and negotiation between FG and one stream of unionists, though not sure which (prob not the dup)
its not that the unionists arenot wanted, people just wont care about them or what they are , no more than they will care about the nationalists.

A fair point, and FG is different to the FG of the 1940's what with all the Just Society stuff. I'm not quite sure it has changed sufficiently to sit comfortably as a Unionist party though. Try telling the kind of people who vote for Jimmy Deenihan that a vote for FG is a vote for the Union!

it wont though,imo...
at that stage there will be no 'union' , the party would initially be recognising the unionist candidates, then eventually it will prob revert back to FG.

[lynchbhoy]

[However to do this, the majority must first swing,

Agree.

the world enonomy must bein good health as must the british, Irish , EU and us economies.

If this is not the case then the will of the majority would be denied?

the British will look to jettison their outpost back to Ireland

HMG is committed to this if that is what is wanted by the majority in NI.

and at the same time they must leave industry, plus the us and EU must set up industry either side of the border - thus sweetening the deal for southern people as well.

If the ROI doesn't like it, then don't vote for it.  Why "must" UK, USA and EU pour money into this fantastic begging bowl? So that people "feel some kind of contentment"? I would fully understand the UK, USA and EU advising the people of this new state to go and have a good shite.

the 'will of the majority' (of Ireland) is being denied by the partition remaining - if you want to pursue that train of thought. I'd expect that a poll of english/wales and scotland would also be in favour of a united Ireland- to get rid of the cost causing six counties !

if you look back at other historic events , the usa and others poured money into german and japanese economies after the war, and there is some agreed undertaking that the EU and britain will assist the funding of a unified Ireland. At the time of german reunification russia was piss poor so couldnt put money towards it. Thats why it is essential to wait for the right economic climate so that brtish gov can pay money to had back the six counties (it will still be financially advantageous for them to do so as a payout will cost less than keeping the six counties afloat).
the USA I added because they frequently add money/industry and investment into ventures like there, and they have been guilty of skicking their nose into this for the past 30 odd years, so try to get them to help at least set up yankee companies along both sides of the border.
Couldnt hold them to it though - unlike EU and british funding.

the british wouldnt be in the position of telling people to go and defecate - because this is in their interest, as it would be they who would be driving and forcing the unification (and therefore saving themselves billions annually!)

[Roger]

the british wouldnt be in the position of telling people to go and defecate - because this is in their interest, as it would be they who would be driving and forcing the unification (and therefore saving themselves billions annually!)

A good shite might help you "feel some kind of contentment" though.

[lynchbhoy]

the british wouldnt be in the position of telling people to go and defecate - because this is in their interest, as it would be they who would be driving and forcing the unification (and therefore saving themselves billions annually!)

A good shite might help you "feel some kind of contentment" though.

maybe so for some, but for most in this day and age, as we have already seen with so many now 'crossing the border down to Dublin' money talks !
I would expect in a couple of decades time, legacy unionists will be wondering what their 'ancestors' were going mad about !

[Roger]

maybe so for some, but for most in this day and age, as we have already seen with so many now 'crossing the border down to Dublin' money talks !
I would expect in a couple of decades time, legacy unionists will be wondering what their 'ancestors' were going mad about !

I think you could be right but then legacy rebels would be wondering how their 'ancestors' expected to a united Ireland like what they promoted. The Republic has changed a hell of a lot, especially in the last 20 years.

[lynchbhoy]

maybe so for some, but for most in this day and age, as we have already seen with so many now 'crossing the border down to Dublin' money talks !
I would expect in a couple of decades time, legacy unionists will be wondering what their 'ancestors' were going mad about !

I think you could be right but then legacy rebels would be wondering how their 'ancestors' expected to a united Ireland like what they promoted. The Republic has changed a hell of a lot, especially in the last 20 years.

agreed. I have also mentioned this earlier, that the impetus for the northern nationalists has also shifted somewhat in the last decade since the reforms won by nationalists lead to a change in environment and less oppressive and persecution than prev.
these days a united Ireland is still desirable, but with no violence or persecution on any side its all down to a big enough incentive for all sides that will have to come from the british gov.
Is that ironic !