Doire v Mhuineacháin 24/5/09

[whiskeysteve]

A lot of folks on here who have laudable standards for the nature in which the game is played also need to face the reality that the game could not and would not have gone any other way.

See this is where I have the problem, I agree that there were some fine passages of play and some great scores, in fact I thought the first half wasn't bad. I've seen loads of poor hurling games, I hardly watch soccer at all as I don't enjoy it as a spectator sport but the point I was making is that those sports or rugby, Aussie rules, American football, rugby league etc. rarely descend into foul ridden spectacles, why should we accept football doing so? Why should we accept off the ball kicking, pushing and shoving, verbals, third man in and worst of all feigning injury as normal? You said it was never going to be different and that is clear evidence of the problem we have, rather than a good hard hitting game, we got a good hard hitting game on occasion but too often it was broken up by petty fouls and nonsense. If these teams came together later in the year we should be able to expect all that is good in football played out by some of the best footballers in Ireland, not a repeat of what we had last Sunday. The problem is with the rules, moreso than the players because players will always push the boundaries, we just need to set new ones.

Derry lads may not realize this,or care, but last Sunday did nothing for football as a game and for people like me who are trying to promote the game that is a problem.

I think it is arguable that other sports you mention can be just as negative and that if they arent, then there is a trade off that makes them just as stop-start as a foul ridden game gaelic, if not more so (with marks, time outs, etc). Fair enough, you may be specifically referring to the high volume of petty negativity in certain gaelic games but I don't think its fair to widen the argument to hold up these sports as paragons of virtue by cherry picking out their positive aspects. You have to acknowledge the trade-offs these sports make that guarantee less fouls. And they are significant trade-offs that make them inferior games, IMO.

Regarding people like you who promote the game, im sorry it was a negative game that made your job harder, but FFS take up your grievances after a run of such games and dont press the panic button just yet. Derry have not been involved in as cynical a game since Tyrone 06' (league or championship), so dont hang us out to dry until we make a habit of such games. Also it is long since established how much displeasure folks have with this game, could we not hear some constructive ideas rather than the Spillane style wailing and gnashing of teeth?

Comparisons with hurling are unfair. The dynamics are completely different. A game where a ball can be driven accurately 80,90,100 yards in an instant nullifies blanket defences, fouling deep out the field to slow down play, etc. Regarding the 'manliness' of the game, there are plenty of sly, underhand stuff at times (butts of hurls jabbed into ribs, groins, etc), but with the speed of the game there is no time to dwell on them. The pace renders it a much less tactical game. Now, soccer is a very sanitised 'physical' sport, it also produces a high number of boring, boring games and it is ridden by diving and cheating.

I'll be honest and echo a few earlier posters. I enjoyed the game on Sunday, it was physical, it was intense, there was honesty of effort in buckets from Sean Leo, Gerard O'Kane, etc. There were good periods of play and yes there were some nasty moments. But over 70 minutes these nasty moments would have added up to less than 5 minutes of viewing.

When I arrived back from the game and got talking to lads from other counties who watched the game on telly, i was struck by how nasty they felt the game had been. I knew it had been played in a bad spirit at times, but overall there had been no bad injuries, no all in brawls, even when 5/6 players were involved in handbags at one point, there was no striking of any kind. After seeing this thread swell to over 60 pages of righteous indignation, its becoming more clear to me that the way the game has been cast in an exaggerated light by elements of the TV coverage, e.g. cameras catching every single incident and replaying them, half time and full time continual replaying of incidents, Spillane, etc, giving out. The focus of the Sunday Game was very incident orientated. A couple of them HAD to be highlighted, but at the end of the day they didnt have to dominate to THAT extent. Subsequently, this game has been subject to hyperbole, from the media down.

Now it was not a pretty game and certainly not one for the purists. My enjoyment of the game, and I think for most Derry spectators, stemmed from the way Derry won. Most expected a tough, gruelling, negative game that could not and would not have been won clean and easy. A lot of folks on here who have laudable standards for the nature in which the game is played also need to face the reality that the game could not and would not have gone any other way. This does not excuse specific incidents but explains the general flow of the match. Nonetheless there were quality moments in this game, Kielts points and the team move leading to Divers point from a Derry perspective, for example. It is a shame these have warranted little to no mention.

One slightly nasty game does not constitute a crisis in standards.

Like most folk here I've been watching and playing gaelic football most of my life.
I don't need an analyst to tell me a lad has been kicked off the ball or kneed in the b*lls when he's lying on the ground.
I'd also like to propose that the words "intense" & "intensity" be banned from discussions about Ulster football.

I wouldnt never dream of saying that folks watching on TV couldnt judge for themselves, but the fact remains that each 'nasty' incident from the game was highlighted and analysed and discussed from various angles, several times and at length. Good aspects were ignored. Now knees to balls and such like need to flagged up, but by going on and on about handbag incidents or mouthing any positives were lost and the game was portrayed as some kind of horrific running battle when it was nowhere near that league. For the sake of promoting the game I'd rather they flagged the serious incidents and then at least used half of the time to pick out the good aspects. Instead, we had a showreel of minor incidents that warranted no sanctions and served only to reinforce bad feeling towards the game, the teams, Ulster football, etc. The positive virtues were tacked on at the end like a reluctant afterthought.

[Archie Mitchell]

I see alot have missed the fact that after Sunday's match, Paddy Bradley is now the 2nd highest points scorer in the Ulster Championship. Now on a total of 14-176 (222) he is 4 clear of Peter Canavan and only 8 behind Oisin McConville. It's inevitable that he will catch Oisin with 1 or possibly 2 matches to come in this Ulster Championship and also a few more seasons. Was a bit shocked when I read this but I supose its the fact that he has been Derry's chief scorer since he came on the county scene. Credit where credit is due.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/the_championship/8066436.stm

[crossfire]

And he hasn't even played in an Ulster final yet.

[Armamike]

I don't see how anyone apart from a Derry supporter could have enjoyed that game - there was too much crap going on (diving, mouthing, petulance etc etc.) and not enough honest hard hitting football. Having said all that, the context for the game needs to be taken into account. That was the third year on the trot that the teams have met each other in the championship and Monaghan came into the game having won the previous 2 encounters. There was a lot of baggage between them, and it was always going to be 'fractious'.

[Main Street]

Derry had all the baggage,
Monaghan had a clear conscience.

[Mike Sheehy]

Once again Ulster brings shame to our games.

Only the healthy rivalries of the south such as Kerry v Cork, Dublin v Meath and Galway v Mayo can rescue the games from the muck that we have been served up so far.

[Zulu]

Regarding people like you who promote the game, im sorry it was a negative game that made your job harder, but FFS take up your grievances after a run of such games and dont press the panic button just yet. Derry have not been involved in as cynical a game since Tyrone 06' (league or championship), so dont hang us out to dry until we make a habit of such games. Also it is long since established how much displeasure folks have with this game, could we not hear some constructive ideas rather than the Spillane style wailing and gnashing of teeth?

I have given my opinion on how we should tackle this problem but one of the biggest issues is people like yourself getting your back up about the criticism, despite me saying it a number times that this isn't about Derry or Monaghan but the game of football itself you still think I'm 'hanging Derry out to dry'. And despite me saying that this isn't just one or two games you still think I'm reacting on the basis of last Sunday. It is time that we should a bit of intelligence and perspective and dropped the bullshit about taking the physicality out of football or an anti-Northern bias whenever new rules are suggested to prevent games like we had last Sunday.

[whiskeysteve]

Sorry that I don't share your great intelligence and visionary perspective on things, but I just don't accept that football is in some kind of doldrums. A few instances per season of dirty games, bad refs and bitter rivalries have been part and parcel of the game for over hundred years and will be for the next hundred. I think there is slightly more diving and feigning injury but the hits are there and the standard and work rate of teams is at an all time high (compare with skills on all ireland gold). I think there are more cameras and media outlets to pick up every instance of nastiness and I don't believe for a second that the dark arts were not as prevalent in days gone by. In fact I think the intense media coverage has actually restrained the off the ball thuggery of yesteryear, particularly of the blatant 'mano a mano' hard man variety you seem to romanticise over. And I dont for one second believe that folks 10, 20 years ago didnt give other players sly kicks, knees or elbows in any less proportion. In fact I'd say it was worse.

Obviously this opinion makes me a big 'issue' standing in the way of progress. Well, you can always go watch American Football.

[Zulu]

And I dont for one second believe that folks 10, 20 years ago didnt give other players sly kicks, knees or elbows in any less proportion. In fact I'd say it was worse.

Of course it was, nobody is saying anything different but like I said before, a soccer fan can't justify crowd violence on the basis it was worse in times gone by. You seem to be having trouble following my argument, I don't have any problem with a bit of argy bargy, my problem is we don't have the necessary sanctions which discourage players from engaging in the kind of nonsense we saw last Sunday. Christ there was hardly anything done last Sunday I didn't do or had done to me, and why was that? Because I knew we'd get away with it, every sport has bad games and every sport can have games that get out of hand but football does so more than most games. Next Sundays Tyrone/Armagh game could be a brilliant match or it could be a poor one however it could also be a foul ridden stop start spectacle. I've no problem if it is one of the first two but none of our games should be able to descend into the third, the fact that it may have happened in the last 125 years is all the more reason to make sure it can't for the next 125.

[Maximus Marillius]

And he hasn't even played in an Ulster final yet.

wrong 2000 Ulster final V Armagh.

[whiskeysteve]

And I dont for one second believe that folks 10, 20 years ago didnt give other players sly kicks, knees or elbows in any less proportion. In fact I'd say it was worse.

Of course it was, nobody is saying anything different but like I said before, a soccer fan can't justify crowd violence on the basis it was worse in times gone by. You seem to be having trouble following my argument, I don't have any problem with a bit of argy bargy, my problem is we don't have the necessary sanctions which discourage players from engaging in the kind of nonsense we saw last Sunday. Christ there was hardly anything done last Sunday I didn't do or had done to me, and why was that? Because I knew we'd get away with it, every sport has bad games and every sport can have games that get out of hand but football does so more than most games. Next Sundays Tyrone/Armagh game could be a brilliant match or it could be a poor one however it could also be a foul ridden stop start spectacle. I've no problem if it is one of the first two but none of our games should be able to descend into the third, the fact that it may have happened in the last 125 years is all the more reason to make sure it can't for the next 125.

Fair enough, I don't disagree with those sentiments. I just feel that a game that is expected to remain highly physical and clean and flowing will always disappoint on occasions while there are bad days for refs and bitter rivalries. You can aim to change rules, sanctions, etc with worthy ambitions to make things better though, fair play to those in GAA who are active in doing this and good luck to them!

[Maximus Marillius]

Cassidy brands TV pundits 'hypocrites'
27 May 2009


Derry manager Damian Cassidy has accused RTE's Sunday Game panel of hypocrisy as the fallout continues from last Sunday's controversial Ulster SFC clash in Celtic Park.

TV pundits Joe Brolly, Colm O'Rourke and Pat Spillane were scathing in their criticism of the rough house tactics employed by both Derry and Monaghan, but Cassidy has turned on them by claiming they were no angels themselves during their own playing days.

"I can't help but feel there is a rampant level of hypocrisy about this," he said.

"You are talking about pundits who when they played could have been cited very handily themselves.

"Now they are sitting on television with halos over their heads."

Cassidy was especially riled by Spillane's comments that he felt sorry for spectators who paid to watch the game.

"I haven't spoken to a Derry supporter yet who was disappointed with what they saw," he remarked.

"There are people with their own agendas here. Being controversial is one way of maintaining your profile."

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Let's not forget that Spillane is still unloading his feckless frustration from being ensconced in the anchor's chair for the last few years, and will be for the foreseeable future (what unbridled joy). And if you think he was talking shite before you ain't heard nothing yet.

[peterquaife]

"ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!!??"

Any gael confirm the date and time for the Derry v Armagh / Tyrone semi-final? Have heard both a Sunday afternoon and Saturday evening throw being bandied about
cheers

[Joel Cairo]

Cassidy brands TV pundits 'hypocrites'
27 May 2009


Derry manager Damian Cassidy has accused RTE's Sunday Game panel of hypocrisy as the fallout continues from last Sunday's controversial Ulster SFC clash in Celtic Park.

TV pundits Joe Brolly, Colm O'Rourke and Pat Spillane were scathing in their criticism of the rough house tactics employed by both Derry and Monaghan, but Cassidy has turned on them by claiming they were no angels themselves during their own playing days.

"I can't help but feel there is a rampant level of hypocrisy about this," he said.

"You are talking about pundits who when they played could have been cited very handily themselves.

"Now they are sitting on television with halos over their heads."

Cassidy was especially riled by Spillane's comments that he felt sorry for spectators who paid to watch the game.

"I haven't spoken to a Derry supporter yet who was disappointed with what they saw," he remarked.

"There are people with their own agendas here. Being controversial is one way of maintaining your profile."

I'm glad Cassidy has come out and said this, but it will make no difference to these clowns as they pontificate as if their word is the last on all issues. These so-called analysts are talking about the football being poor - well I reckon the quality of punditry is poor. And they're the ones getting paid!

They comment on whether or not it was a poor game of football - to me that is irrelevant; most of us want to know how and why a game was won or lost.

It's probably a topic for another thread, but The Sunday Game guys, along with Burns and McHugh also are getting tiresome. I enjoyed more Setanta's coverage during the league.

He may be a negative hoor but Eugene McGee at least tells it how it is, and as regards Ulster football especially, Peter Canavan usually calls it spot on.

It's much fresher than the lazy nonsense spouted by McHugh and Spillane.