The Budget

[tyronefan]

same as people who bought house at the height of the market and are now in negative equity

[muppet]

There is no point in me putting up the various tax relief schemes these people invest in because people wouldn't understand them. But people who earn in excess of a gross salary of 100k per annum invest in these schemes and make substantially less of a contribution to the revenue. I can't believe you've never heard of these schemes (As a result the contribution of these people is essentially up until yesterday is 27%.
I'm not getting hammered to extent of  the 55k -85 k group. I'm fortunate in that respect. But I'm in more of a position to take  a hit then other members of society. Thats what called an equitable tax system -not the sham of a one we have,
There is a certain level of arrogance among people in the 100k bracket who don't want to pay any tax. I deal with these people regularly unfortunately. The reality is the excess income they earn covers any of these tax increases more than adequately.  People in the most vunerable bracket - don't have the excess income to cover yesterday's budget- thats it makes it grossly unfair in my view.
they've hit the vunerable while leaving the high earners alone.
And of course the property developers- who get their bad loans taken off them- and get tax relief too- nice work if you can get it.

Humour us. Some here have an education to match your ego. Let's see some 'facts' Einstein.

[ludermor]

FFS indiana if there are schemes i am missing out on i need to be told!!!

[INDIANA]

ones i've had to deal with

accelerated capital allowances on private hospitals/hotels - anything from 50 to 100%
forestry schemes- can be full 100% of restricted depending on the level of investment
urban renewal relief- initial allowance of up to 50%
film relief -limit of 31750
bes expansion scheme-same as above
section 23 relief
horse racing studs (popular among certain circles)

anyone in the 55k to 85k ain't going to be investing in these. Nice though if you've got the income- nice deduction if you've got the money.

[Declan]

http://www.worldsgreatestbusinessmind.com/20090406-Brian-Lenihan-create.html

Looks like we were all wrong lads - He is the greatest

[muppet]

ones i've had to deal with

accelerated capital allowances on private hospitals/hotels - anything from 50 to 100%
forestry schemes- can be full 100% of restricted depending on the level of investment
urban renewal relief- initial allowance of up to 50%
film relief -limit of 31750
bes expansion scheme-same as above
section 23 relief
horse racing studs (popular among certain circles)

anyone in the 55k to 85k ain't going to be investing in these. Nice though if you've got the income- nice deduction if you've got the money.

For the benefit of everyone other than Indiana I am not suggesting high earners should pay less. I am merely correcting his nonsense with facts.

I know many people on over €100,000 p/a. A few have section 23 properties, none AFAIK are involved in any of the others. I also know poeple earning less than €100,000 with section 23 properties.

You still haven't addressed the 'fact' that over half of all income tax is paid by the top 6.5% of earners. How do you sit that with your claim that they don't pay their fair share? I'd also like to you to substantiate your 'rarely have I heard such an uneducated comment' when the facts quoted are against you and you still haven't provided any evidence for your claim.

This is taken from the Revenue Commissioners 2005 figures, the most recent available. (It has hardly got any fairer considering the new levy is higher for earners over €100,000).

Revenue Commissioners Statistical Reports 2007

[Billys Boots]

Muppet, I also 'understood' that even with the 'tax-relief' schemes in place, the income tax situation you described was true, i.e. 6.5% of the population paid/pay 50% of the income tax collected.

[Bogball XV]

"Statistics from the Revenue Commissioners show that, contrary to some assertions, Irish income tax is highly progressive. Current figures show that half of all income tax - €6.5 billion - is paid by the top 6.5 per cent of taxpayers.

A third of all income tax is paid by the top 2.5 per cent of taxpayers, numbering just 60,000 out of the total 2.4 million income earners. Some 38 per cent of all income earners are under the tax threshold and pay no income tax at all."

"Rarely have I heard (on the internet  ) such an uneducated comment."

My family is down over €1,000 a month as a result of yesterday. I don't enjoy reading idiots saying we don't contribute.

I am looking forward to reading your statistical facts.

I suspect the fact reads something as follows:

< €30,000 - less than 5% of income  goes in income tax
< €75,000 - less than 20% of income goes in  inome tax
> €75,000 - Less than 27% of income goes in income tax

What the numbers fail to point out is that in this country only circa 30% of our total tax take is in the form of income tax.  We have amongst the highest proportion in the EU (I think the highest) of our taxes in the form of indirect taxes (mainly consumption taxes), thus whilst it's fair to say that low earners don't pay income tax we can safely assume that they pay their fair share as presumably almost every cent earned is spent, therefore incurring vat at 21.5% and the many excise duties on alcohol and cigarettes.

[Bogball XV]

ones i've had to deal with

accelerated capital allowances on private hospitals/hotels - anything from 50 to 100%
forestry schemes- can be full 100% of restricted depending on the level of investment
urban renewal relief- initial allowance of up to 50%
film relief -limit of 31750
bes expansion scheme-same as above
section 23 relief
horse racing studs (popular among certain circles)

anyone in the 55k to 85k ain't going to be investing in these. Nice though if you've got the income- nice deduction if you've got the money.

For the benefit of everyone other than Indiana I am not suggesting high earners should pay less. I am merely correcting his nonsense with facts.

I know many people on over €100,000 p/a. A few have section 23 properties, none AFAIK are involved in any of the others. I also know poeple earning less than €100,000 with section 23 properties.

I concur, there are very few decent tax breaks open to those on 100K odd - as you get higher up, yes there are many incentives, but circa 100K is rarely enough to get involved in a serious way in these breaks.

Another thing that people should realise is that tax incentives are entirely that, incentives - our problem is that the wrong things were incentivised, ie building 18 million hotels and 500 million apartments in Carrick on Shannon aren't that beneficial to the country in the long run, but a few schools might have been etc etc

[muppet]

"Statistics from the Revenue Commissioners show that, contrary to some assertions, Irish income tax is highly progressive. Current figures show that half of all income tax - €6.5 billion - is paid by the top 6.5 per cent of taxpayers.

A third of all income tax is paid by the top 2.5 per cent of taxpayers, numbering just 60,000 out of the total 2.4 million income earners. Some 38 per cent of all income earners are under the tax threshold and pay no income tax at all."

"Rarely have I heard (on the internet  ) such an uneducated comment."

My family is down over €1,000 a month as a result of yesterday. I don't enjoy reading idiots saying we don't contribute.

I am looking forward to reading your statistical facts.

I suspect the fact reads something as follows:

< €30,000 - less than 5% of income  goes in income tax
< €75,000 - less than 20% of income goes in  inome tax
> €75,000 - Less than 27% of income goes in income tax

What the numbers fail to point out is that in this country only circa 30% of our total tax take is in the form of income tax.  We have amongst the highest proportion in the EU (I think the highest) of our taxes in the form of indirect taxes (mainly consumption taxes), thus whilst it's fair to say that low earners don't pay income tax we can safely assume that they pay their fair share as presumably almost every cent earned is spent, therefore incurring vat at 21.5% and the many excise duties on alcohol and cigarettes.

I agree, I did say 'income tax' rather than just tax WRT low earners.

They should look seriously at the reliefs. Lowering the relief on investment properties is a good start even if I take a personal hit. The Hotels situation is ridiculous.

[mc_grens]

Bit of a debate at work- can anyone clear it up?

Is the 4% levy on earnings over 75k on all your earnings or just the portion over 75k?

[INDIANA]

ones i've had to deal with

accelerated capital allowances on private hospitals/hotels - anything from 50 to 100%
forestry schemes- can be full 100% of restricted depending on the level of investment
urban renewal relief- initial allowance of up to 50%
film relief -limit of 31750
bes expansion scheme-same as above
section 23 relief
horse racing studs (popular among certain circles)

anyone in the 55k to 85k ain't going to be investing in these. Nice though if you've got the income- nice deduction if you've got the money.

For the benefit of everyone other than Indiana I am not suggesting high earners should pay less. I am merely correcting his nonsense with facts.

I know many people on over €100,000 p/a. A few have section 23 properties, none AFAIK are involved in any of the others. I also know poeple earning less than €100,000 with section 23 properties.

You still haven't addressed the 'fact' that over half of all income tax is paid by the top 6.5% of earners. How do you sit that with your claim that they don't pay their fair share? I'd also like to you to substantiate your 'rarely have I heard such an uneducated comment' when the facts quoted are against you and you still haven't provided any evidence for your claim.

This is taken from the Revenue Commissioners 2005 figures, the most recent available. (It has hardly got any fairer considering the new levy is higher for earners over €100,000).

Revenue Commissioners Statistical Reports 2007

Because the statistic you quote Muppet doesn't take into account what is paid into a company or into a  company pension fund.

- Many high earners setup corporates (i know quite a few of these people) and pay tax at 12.5% instead of the marginal rate. This is easily done when not in full time employment. All they have to do is pay amounts of monies into the company pension scheme rather than extract it as dividends.

-some people have inherited significant wealth while earning low incomes. income tax is levied on income-not on wealth.These people completely escape the tax net. I see enough of them.

- some of the highest earners in this State paid no tax last year due to the above schemes. that is a statistical fact and is freely available.

[muppet]

Bit of a debate at work- can anyone clear it up?

Is the 4% levy on earnings over 75k on all your earnings or just the portion over 75k?

income Levy – from 1May
The income levy rates will be doubled to 2%, 4% and 6%.
The exemption threshold will be €15,028. The 4% rate will apply to income in excess of €75,036 and the 6% rate to income in excess of €174,980.

It is not clear but I'm pretty certain 'will apply to income in excess of €75,036' means that any income up to that will be at the lower rate. Maybe one of our accountants here can clarify?

[bcarrier]

Another thing that people should realise is that tax incentives are entirely that, incentives - our problem is that the wrong things were incentivised, ie building 18 million hotels and 500 million apartments in Carrick on Shannon aren't that beneficial to the country in the long run, but a few schools might have been etc etc

It is remarkable how much people will pay for something  - when it has a tax relief sticker attached. When I have looked at these things it seems that actual purchase price = true value plus min of 80% of tax benefit. The people who bought these things are generally sitting on enormous losses because there was no  underlying demand in the first place.

[muppet]

ones i've had to deal with

accelerated capital allowances on private hospitals/hotels - anything from 50 to 100%
forestry schemes- can be full 100% of restricted depending on the level of investment
urban renewal relief- initial allowance of up to 50%
film relief -limit of 31750
bes expansion scheme-same as above
section 23 relief
horse racing studs (popular among certain circles)

anyone in the 55k to 85k ain't going to be investing in these. Nice though if you've got the income- nice deduction if you've got the money.

For the benefit of everyone other than Indiana I am not suggesting high earners should pay less. I am merely correcting his nonsense with facts.

I know many people on over €100,000 p/a. A few have section 23 properties, none AFAIK are involved in any of the others. I also know people earning less than €100,000 with section 23 properties.

You still haven't addressed the 'fact' that over half of all income tax is paid by the top 6.5% of earners. How do you sit that with your claim that they don't pay their fair share? I'd also like to you to substantiate your 'rarely have I heard such an uneducated comment' when the facts quoted are against you and you still haven't provided any evidence for your claim.

This is taken from the Revenue Commissioners 2005 figures, the most recent available. (It has hardly got any fairer considering the new levy is higher for earners over €100,000).

Revenue Commissioners Statistical Reports 2007

Because the statistic you quote Muppet doesn't take into account what is paid into a company or into a  company pension fund.

- Many high earners setup corporates (i know quite a few of these people) and pay tax at 12.5% instead of the marginal rate. This is easily done when not in full time employment. All they have to do is pay amounts of monies into the company pension scheme rather than extract it as dividends.

-some people have inherited significant wealth while earning low incomes. income tax is levied on income-not on wealth.These people completely escape the tax net. I see enough of them.

- some of the highest earners in this State paid no tax last year due to the above schemes. that is a statistical fact and is freely available.

You started by attacking all earners over €100,000. You announced a statistic, that you still haven't provided a source for, that only 27% of their salaries goes in tax. You never made a comparison with other earners, I suspect that 27% is the high point of the graph reducing to zero at the threshold, so the statistic is meaningless.

Now you are suggesting that some of those high earners escape tax by investing in pensions or setting up corporations. I know many >€100,000 earners and I know no one who has done this. BTW AFAIK pensions are capped at 66% of FRS so what would be the point in funding beyond that?

Your point about inheritance tax is irrelevant to this debate as you seem now to be attacking low earners who inherit money. Your point was about earners over €100,000.

some of the highest earners in this State paid no tax last year due to the above schemes. that is a statistical fact and is freely available.

That has been widely reported. I suspect it applies to a small minority but it is true nonetheless. Of the >€100,000 salary earners known personally to board members I would guess hardly any pay no tax.