The Many Faces of US Politics...

[deiseach]

There definitely about 100k people for whom the pre-invasion situation was infinitely better.

They must have all hated freedom

[tyssam5]

how are things in the u s of a ?

are change
hope
etc etc still wowing people ?


I expect theres full employment by now

good to see the nasdaq and dow back to pre-collapse levels this past couple of months at least

Yes LB, unfortunately there are still an astronomical number of sheep that are s t i l l  buying his crap,
Though there is a remarked reduction in Obama / Biden '08 bumper stickers on the freeways here I have to say so who knows, the blinkers could be slipping.
As for the unemployment numbers....if truth be told we're probably closer to twice the 9.7%
that the media are pedaling, but sure whatever it takes to keep the dream alive!

But surely for a Rep the only valid reason they have no job is cos they are lazy no?

[J70]

how are things in the u s of a ?

are change
hope
etc etc still wowing people ?


I expect theres full employment by now

good to see the nasdaq and dow back to pre-collapse levels this past couple of months at least

Yes LB, unfortunately there are still an astronomical number of sheep that are s t i l l  buying his crap,
Though there is a remarked reduction in Obama / Biden '08 bumper stickers on the freeways here I have to say so who knows, the blinkers could be slipping.
As for the unemployment numbers....if truth be told we're probably closer to twice the 9.7%
that the media are pedaling, but sure whatever it takes to keep the dream alive!

But surely for a Rep the only valid reason they have no job is cos they are lazy no?

And of course the right wing was using the "real" indicators of unemployment under Bush in 2008 and way back when, under Reagan.

[Tyrones own]

And of course the right wing was using the "real" indicators of unemployment under Bush in 2008 and way back when, under Reagan.

Ah ..don't be at it J, surely you remember the fear mongering speech of where we were headed if we didn't act...NOW!
..Anyway here's a short reminder below of where I'm coming from and honestly, I'd say mission accomplished for each of the points he made,
we are exactly where he promised we wouldn't be if.................................
I'm not sure but I think this takes Bush and or Reagan out of the equation on this particular issue simply because this was his fix to the last 8 years *yawn*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlqiCpgW650

[J70]

And of course the right wing was using the "real" indicators of unemployment under Bush in 2008 and way back when, under Reagan.

Ah ..don't be at it J, surely you remember the fear mongering speech of where we were headed if we didn't act...NOW!
..Anyway here's a short reminder below of where I'm coming from and honestly, I'd say mission accomplished for each of the points he made,
we are exactly where he promised we wouldn't be if.................................
I'm not sure but I think this takes Bush and or Reagan out of the equation on this particular issue simply because this was his fix to the last 8 years *yawn*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlqiCpgW650

I didn't comment on the numbers themselves, although the upward trend appears to have ended, thankfully, and hopefully for good in terms of the current recession. The point was that all of a sudden the run-of-the-mill accepted indicators are somehow deceitful! Was that not your implication?

Whether or not things would have been much worse and the recession seriously extended without Obama's actions last year (and Bush's just before that), I have no idea, but I certainly am not going to just accept the speculations of those who are virulently ill-disposed towards him to begin with. Maybe things would be no worse, but then maybe they'd be a lot worse! People knew the stimulus was coming when he was elected and he'll live or die by how its turning out in two and half year's time.

But as for the fear mongering, yes, all politicians do the hard sell. I hope you're as offended the next time some chickenhawk right wing politicians or talk radio hosts are beating the drums about going to war (mushroom cloud in 45 minutes!) at the same time they're denigrating some liberal (or dissenting moderate among their own) who actually had the balls to wear the uniform into battle.

But we've been over this ground numerous times before. You know where I stand. I fully accept that there are idiots and hypocrites among the Democratic representation, just like the Republicans (I presume you didn't post links to the other embarrassing politician from Georgia to go viral recently, the "war between the states/war of yankee aggression" Republican - Braun or Broun I think?). But as long as the Republicans are hostage to the right wing social/anti-environmental/anti-worker/consumer safety agenda, they are never getting my vote, nationally (there are some sane Republicans here in the Northeast I can safely vote for locally! ). The national Republican party have made it clear over the past year that they have no place for and do not want someone with my views, even if I might have sympathies for some of the positions of some of their saner members on economic issues. The Democrats have plenty of faults, but its still about the lesser of two evils. If you can't respect that, I don't give a shit, and a sheep I certainly am not. So unless you've something new and interesting to add, I am not getting sucked into another endless, futile back-and-forth over issues we've covered ten times before.

[Hedley Lamarr]

There definitely about 100k people for whom the pre-invasion situation was infinitely better.

They must have all hated freedom

Source Iraqi casualties March 2003 to...
Iraq Family Health Survey 151,000 violent deaths. June 2006
Lancet survey 601,027 violent deaths out of 654,965 excess deaths. June 2006
Opinion Research Business survey 1,033,000 violent deaths as a result of the conflict. August 2007
Associated Press 110,600 violent deaths April 2009
Iraq Body Count 94,902 – 103,549 violent civilian deaths as a result of the conflict. December 2009

Freedom American style

[heganboy]

Freedom American style

and your suggested alternative is?

[deiseach]

Freedom American style

and your suggested alternative is?

Given the current dispensation, the Americans are probably doing much as I would do if I were king / president - managing the situation and plotting an exit strategy. I'd probably be more aggressive in terms of setting a timetable for withdrawal.

If I had a time machine, I'd go back and stop the invasion. And yes, that means I'd leave Saddam in place. The price in blood and treasure has not been worth it

[Hedley Lamarr]

Freedom American style

and your suggested alternative is?

Leave things alone that do not concern you(America).....WMD ....regime change.....bull..... can't wait for the good old US of A to do the same in North Korea and Iran

[heganboy]

Freedom American style

and your suggested alternative is?

Leave things alone that do not concern you(America).....WMD ....regime change.....bull..... can't wait for the good old US of A to do the same in North Korea and Iran

Definitely a fair point- let me ask at what point do you make the decision that things do concern you?

I for one am no fan of what I view as an invasion of Iraq, however every sovereign nation has the duty/right of self defence.

At what point did the UK/ USA in WWII make the decision that happening in Germany did concern them- or in that case would you advocate that they had left well enough alone?

At some point (and again not advocating that that point was reached in Iraq) a nation's government may well decide that actions elsewhere are of concern to the security of the nation or its citizens and should act accordingly (and proportionally).


At some point you must decide that things do concern you, quoting Martin Niemöller :

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

[muppet]

At some point you must decide that things do concern you, quoting Martin Niemöller :

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Was he a Democrat?

[heganboy]

I believe he was an anti communist christian Pastor....

Though fox "news" would have him as a democraat :-)

[magickingdom]

Freedom American style

and your suggested alternative is?

Leave things alone that do not concern you(America).....WMD ....regime change.....bull..... can't wait for the good old US of A to do the same in North Korea and Iran

you prefer the russian style? or maybe the chinese? youd be speaking german if it wasn't for freedom american style

[muppet]

Freedom American style

and your suggested alternative is?

Leave things alone that do not concern you(America).....WMD ....regime change.....bull..... can't wait for the good old US of A to do the same in North Korea and Iran

you prefer the russian style? or maybe the chinese? youd be speaking german if it wasn't for freedom american style

We already speak a foreign invaders language, one that committed genocide here. Why is english better than german?

[magickingdom]

Freedom American style

and your suggested alternative is?

Leave things alone that do not concern you(America).....WMD ....regime change.....bull..... can't wait for the good old US of A to do the same in North Korea and Iran

you prefer the russian style? or maybe the chinese? youd be speaking german if it wasn't for freedom american style

We already speak a foreign invaders language, one that committed genocide here. Why is english better than german?

feck off muppet, i was afraid someone was going to say that