Author Topic: The Many Faces of US Politics...  (Read 906651 times)

joemamas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1418
    • View Profile
Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« Reply #13050 on: October 09, 2018, 02:13:17 PM »
You can’t understand the US unless you live there is a version of what in philosophy  is referred to as the “practical man” fallacy, the idea that nothing can exist with any meaning outside immediate physical experience. In football it is known as the “never kicked a ball in your life” theory.

Twitter is free. The NYT is $60 for an online sub.

It gives you context and an understanding that you don't have and cant experience by reading about it with preconceived notions. You cant choose who you meet in the same way as you can choose what you read so it exposes you to perspectives at a personal perspective that you just cant get working from concepts alone.

I'll give you an example. I know a couple of fellas one is Hispanic (whatever that is) the other is Asian (sort of). both young, educated, fairly nerdy, good jobs, good craic, decent lads. To you or me or any1 else they come across as down to earth, smart and normal.. But what do they do their free time? They drive out into their desert to drink beer and shoot guns at shitty targets they set up. I get a good ole laugh outta this cos to me its the most hillbilly thing I ever heard of. Now they hate Trump think he and most Republicans are morons but if you try and tell them they shouldn't be allowed to shoot their guns in the desert in the desert because some psychopath shot up a school they wouldn't think its ridiculous or be outraged or anything else... they would just laugh their heads off as to to them what you are saying would be completely illogical. A German fella got into it with them about guns once and starting citing all these countries with low gun crime rates, it soon shutup when they asked him about Switzerland (he didnt have a clue incidentally!) Now I don't know how they vote, I suspect blue but if the right GOP candidate came along they would vote for them in a flinch.

Now this is the thing you don't get about reading politics in America you don't get the one on one interaction with people, so you don't really get to understand where they are coming from and how genuine they are.
You dont get a feel of the vastness of opinions, eventually you find out that everyone has a different opinion, no one it turns out fits the mould of a typical righty or liberal. And these people come in all shapes, shades, ages and places.
You dont get how politics affects you personally, your income, healthcare, roads, rent, crime in your area. And how you feel about that. You can hypothessze all you want about how you'll feel but the truth is... you just dont know until your in that situation.

Also... never kicked a ball is very true you would know it if ye ever did. I could never tell how good a footballer some is until I played agin or with them , it just gives you a perspective that you cant get when your watching in the stands....and commenting on American politics from Ireland well I am afraid your only watching in the stands.

And most Americans would think its hilarious that you even are watching from the stands, the only people that take notice of you are eejits like me expats...a good portion of whom cant or don't vote.

Whether or not you think people can understand something without direct experience depends on how your brain works. Some people can only do what they know.

What is going on in the US now is fascinating. An economic system is dying. The richest 1% own around 50% of everything. The GOP has managed to convince people that this is fine.


Hey Dr.

When you finish figuring out the problems back home and there seems to be a fair chunk of them, can you define "Rich", or maybe you are confusing it with successful, entrepreneurial and having spent their entire life working their ass off to build something, which when they pass on whatever is in their estate can be taxed at 50%, oh btw, they already paid income tax on those funds.
In the US, the top 1% account for 40% of all taxes collected, the top 10% account for 70% of all taxes collected.
btw, if you have been fortunate enough to be in the top 10%, additionally you probably pay $20k+ in annual real estate taxes which go to local schools and services, you will be paying full freight for college $50k-$70k per year, (which I am fine with, (not the price but paying it) as there are a less fortunate folks with less means, and I truly believe that education is the long -term answer to generational problems.)

I did not include sending your kids to catholic grammar school or catholic high school.
so if you truly believe that their is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, or that the majority of folks who have been successful did not work for it, or don't pay taxes, then dream on.



omaghjoe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3208
    • View Profile
Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« Reply #13051 on: October 09, 2018, 03:59:42 PM »
You can’t understand the US unless you live there is a version of what in philosophy  is referred to as the “practical man” fallacy, the idea that nothing can exist with any meaning outside immediate physical experience. In football it is known as the “never kicked a ball in your life” theory.

Twitter is free. The NYT is $60 for an online sub.

It gives you context and an understanding that you don't have and cant experience by reading about it with preconceived notions. You cant choose who you meet in the same way as you can choose what you read so it exposes you to perspectives at a personal perspective that you just cant get working from concepts alone.

I'll give you an example. I know a couple of fellas one is Hispanic (whatever that is) the other is Asian (sort of). both young, educated, fairly nerdy, good jobs, good craic, decent lads. To you or me or any1 else they come across as down to earth, smart and normal.. But what do they do their free time? They drive out into their desert to drink beer and shoot guns at shitty targets they set up. I get a good ole laugh outta this cos to me its the most hillbilly thing I ever heard of. Now they hate Trump think he and most Republicans are morons but if you try and tell them they shouldn't be allowed to shoot their guns in the desert in the desert because some psychopath shot up a school they wouldn't think its ridiculous or be outraged or anything else... they would just laugh their heads off as to to them what you are saying would be completely illogical. A German fella got into it with them about guns once and starting citing all these countries with low gun crime rates, it soon shutup when they asked him about Switzerland (he didnt have a clue incidentally!) Now I don't know how they vote, I suspect blue but if the right GOP candidate came along they would vote for them in a flinch.

Now this is the thing you don't get about reading politics in America you don't get the one on one interaction with people, so you don't really get to understand where they are coming from and how genuine they are.
You dont get a feel of the vastness of opinions, eventually you find out that everyone has a different opinion, no one it turns out fits the mould of a typical righty or liberal. And these people come in all shapes, shades, ages and places.
You dont get how politics affects you personally, your income, healthcare, roads, rent, crime in your area. And how you feel about that. You can hypothessze all you want about how you'll feel but the truth is... you just dont know until your in that situation.

Also... never kicked a ball is very true you would know it if ye ever did. I could never tell how good a footballer some is until I played agin or with them , it just gives you a perspective that you cant get when your watching in the stands....and commenting on American politics from Ireland well I am afraid your only watching in the stands.

And most Americans would think its hilarious that you even are watching from the stands, the only people that take notice of you are eejits like me expats...a good portion of whom cant or don't vote.

Whether or not you think people can understand something without direct experience depends on how your brain works. Some people can only do what they know.

What is going on in the US now is fascinating. An economic system is dying. The richest 1% own around 50% of everything. The GOP has managed to convince people that this is fine.


Politics is not conceptual like mathematics, quantum mechanics or metaphysics, its start point is a human experience not some macro analysis ... the only way to fully understand it is by living that experience.

Its like watching a film if you wanted to understand a film would you read a load of reviews or would you watch the film
Politics now is a function of economics.
Sometimes experience is not a reliable guide to the future. Climate change is an example

No its not, its the other way around, same as always.


Gmac

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 458
    • View Profile
Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« Reply #13052 on: October 09, 2018, 06:11:57 PM »
You can’t understand the US unless you live there is a version of what in philosophy  is referred to as the “practical man” fallacy, the idea that nothing can exist with any meaning outside immediate physical experience. In football it is known as the “never kicked a ball in your life” theory.

Twitter is free. The NYT is $60 for an online sub.

It gives you context and an understanding that you don't have and cant experience by reading about it with preconceived notions. You cant choose who you meet in the same way as you can choose what you read so it exposes you to perspectives at a personal perspective that you just cant get working from concepts alone.

I'll give you an example. I know a couple of fellas one is Hispanic (whatever that is) the other is Asian (sort of). both young, educated, fairly nerdy, good jobs, good craic, decent lads. To you or me or any1 else they come across as down to earth, smart and normal.. But what do they do their free time? They drive out into their desert to drink beer and shoot guns at shitty targets they set up. I get a good ole laugh outta this cos to me its the most hillbilly thing I ever heard of. Now they hate Trump think he and most Republicans are morons but if you try and tell them they shouldn't be allowed to shoot their guns in the desert in the desert because some psychopath shot up a school they wouldn't think its ridiculous or be outraged or anything else... they would just laugh their heads off as to to them what you are saying would be completely illogical. A German fella got into it with them about guns once and starting citing all these countries with low gun crime rates, it soon shutup when they asked him about Switzerland (he didnt have a clue incidentally!) Now I don't know how they vote, I suspect blue but if the right GOP candidate came along they would vote for them in a flinch.

Now this is the thing you don't get about reading politics in America you don't get the one on one interaction with people, so you don't really get to understand where they are coming from and how genuine they are.
You dont get a feel of the vastness of opinions, eventually you find out that everyone has a different opinion, no one it turns out fits the mould of a typical righty or liberal. And these people come in all shapes, shades, ages and places.
You dont get how politics affects you personally, your income, healthcare, roads, rent, crime in your area. And how you feel about that. You can hypothessze all you want about how you'll feel but the truth is... you just dont know until your in that situation.

Also... never kicked a ball is very true you would know it if ye ever did. I could never tell how good a footballer some is until I played agin or with them , it just gives you a perspective that you cant get when your watching in the stands....and commenting on American politics from Ireland well I am afraid your only watching in the stands.

And most Americans would think its hilarious that you even are watching from the stands, the only people that take notice of you are eejits like me expats...a good portion of whom cant or don't vote.

Whether or not you think people can understand something without direct experience depends on how your brain works. Some people can only do what they know.

What is going on in the US now is fascinating. An economic system is dying. The richest 1% own around 50% of everything. The GOP has managed to convince people that this is fine.
what about google, amazon, apple , Facebook should all these companies be allowed to keep getting bigger or should they be broken up ? I’m sure these companies wield a lot more influence than the Koch brothers and it’s all on the dem side . All these companies are influencing policies that are destroying a state like California creating a huge gap in rich and poor ,

seafoid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22136
    • View Profile
Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« Reply #13053 on: October 09, 2018, 06:23:05 PM »
You can’t understand the US unless you live there is a version of what in philosophy  is referred to as the “practical man” fallacy, the idea that nothing can exist with any meaning outside immediate physical experience. In football it is known as the “never kicked a ball in your life” theory.

Twitter is free. The NYT is $60 for an online sub.

It gives you context and an understanding that you don't have and cant experience by reading about it with preconceived notions. You cant choose who you meet in the same way as you can choose what you read so it exposes you to perspectives at a personal perspective that you just cant get working from concepts alone.

I'll give you an example. I know a couple of fellas one is Hispanic (whatever that is) the other is Asian (sort of). both young, educated, fairly nerdy, good jobs, good craic, decent lads. To you or me or any1 else they come across as down to earth, smart and normal.. But what do they do their free time? They drive out into their desert to drink beer and shoot guns at shitty targets they set up. I get a good ole laugh outta this cos to me its the most hillbilly thing I ever heard of. Now they hate Trump think he and most Republicans are morons but if you try and tell them they shouldn't be allowed to shoot their guns in the desert in the desert because some psychopath shot up a school they wouldn't think its ridiculous or be outraged or anything else... they would just laugh their heads off as to to them what you are saying would be completely illogical. A German fella got into it with them about guns once and starting citing all these countries with low gun crime rates, it soon shutup when they asked him about Switzerland (he didnt have a clue incidentally!) Now I don't know how they vote, I suspect blue but if the right GOP candidate came along they would vote for them in a flinch.

Now this is the thing you don't get about reading politics in America you don't get the one on one interaction with people, so you don't really get to understand where they are coming from and how genuine they are.
You dont get a feel of the vastness of opinions, eventually you find out that everyone has a different opinion, no one it turns out fits the mould of a typical righty or liberal. And these people come in all shapes, shades, ages and places.
You dont get how politics affects you personally, your income, healthcare, roads, rent, crime in your area. And how you feel about that. You can hypothessze all you want about how you'll feel but the truth is... you just dont know until your in that situation.

Also... never kicked a ball is very true you would know it if ye ever did. I could never tell how good a footballer some is until I played agin or with them , it just gives you a perspective that you cant get when your watching in the stands....and commenting on American politics from Ireland well I am afraid your only watching in the stands.

And most Americans would think its hilarious that you even are watching from the stands, the only people that take notice of you are eejits like me expats...a good portion of whom cant or don't vote.

Whether or not you think people can understand something without direct experience depends on how your brain works. Some people can only do what they know.

What is going on in the US now is fascinating. An economic system is dying. The richest 1% own around 50% of everything. The GOP has managed to convince people that this is fine.
what about google, amazon, apple , Facebook should all these companies be allowed to keep getting bigger or should they be broken up ? I’m sure these companies wield a lot more influence than the Koch brothers and it’s all on the dem side . All these companies are influencing policies that are destroying a state like California creating a huge gap in rich and poor ,
Of course they should be broken up. Kavanaugh is very anti anti trust so it won’t happen until the people vote for a Government that will do it.
Tammany Hall is an interesting story from the American past.
Those biscuits are for the visitors

sid waddell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1796
    • View Profile
Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« Reply #13054 on: October 09, 2018, 08:19:46 PM »
You can’t understand the US unless you live there is a version of what in philosophy  is referred to as the “practical man” fallacy, the idea that nothing can exist with any meaning outside immediate physical experience. In football it is known as the “never kicked a ball in your life” theory.

Twitter is free. The NYT is $60 for an online sub.

It gives you context and an understanding that you don't have and cant experience by reading about it with preconceived notions. You cant choose who you meet in the same way as you can choose what you read so it exposes you to perspectives at a personal perspective that you just cant get working from concepts alone.

I'll give you an example. I know a couple of fellas one is Hispanic (whatever that is) the other is Asian (sort of). both young, educated, fairly nerdy, good jobs, good craic, decent lads. To you or me or any1 else they come across as down to earth, smart and normal.. But what do they do their free time? They drive out into their desert to drink beer and shoot guns at shitty targets they set up. I get a good ole laugh outta this cos to me its the most hillbilly thing I ever heard of. Now they hate Trump think he and most Republicans are morons but if you try and tell them they shouldn't be allowed to shoot their guns in the desert in the desert because some psychopath shot up a school they wouldn't think its ridiculous or be outraged or anything else... they would just laugh their heads off as to to them what you are saying would be completely illogical. A German fella got into it with them about guns once and starting citing all these countries with low gun crime rates, it soon shutup when they asked him about Switzerland (he didnt have a clue incidentally!) Now I don't know how they vote, I suspect blue but if the right GOP candidate came along they would vote for them in a flinch.

Now this is the thing you don't get about reading politics in America you don't get the one on one interaction with people, so you don't really get to understand where they are coming from and how genuine they are.
You dont get a feel of the vastness of opinions, eventually you find out that everyone has a different opinion, no one it turns out fits the mould of a typical righty or liberal. And these people come in all shapes, shades, ages and places.
You dont get how politics affects you personally, your income, healthcare, roads, rent, crime in your area. And how you feel about that. You can hypothessze all you want about how you'll feel but the truth is... you just dont know until your in that situation.

Also... never kicked a ball is very true you would know it if ye ever did. I could never tell how good a footballer some is until I played agin or with them , it just gives you a perspective that you cant get when your watching in the stands....and commenting on American politics from Ireland well I am afraid your only watching in the stands.

And most Americans would think its hilarious that you even are watching from the stands, the only people that take notice of you are eejits like me expats...a good portion of whom cant or don't vote.

Whether or not you think people can understand something without direct experience depends on how your brain works. Some people can only do what they know.

What is going on in the US now is fascinating. An economic system is dying. The richest 1% own around 50% of everything. The GOP has managed to convince people that this is fine.

And mainstream Democrats as well, it's all based on the American mentality; if you work hard enough you can make it too.

When you talk to republicans and democrats (in NJ, as the differences between the two have regional variances), the conversations will centre around the following arguments, big government 'v' small government, new immigrants needing to adapt to America, not the other way around ''v' America should be set up to ease entry into American society (immigrant support services). immigration policy, (economic immigrant policy 'v' family immigrant policy), and lastly taxes.

During discussions that I've had, I've always found them to being interesting, and the rep and demo leaning people have honest points.

For example, Rep attitude to taxes, lower corp taxes to encourage company's to employ more people in USA with better paid jobs which in turn helps pull people out of poverty 'v' high taxes to support the poor with benefits

These are the debates that you will exposed to while living in America, debates that you wont hear in the news channels.
All these debates are universal and in their US context endless reams of debates about them are easily accessible online.

Dolph1

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
    • View Profile
Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« Reply #13055 on: October 10, 2018, 08:11:41 AM »
Gmac being fast and loose with the truth again re: Franken.

He wasn't filmed groping a sleeping woman




He was just explaining to a colleague what Brett Kavanaugh did to Christine Blasey Ford.

On a related topic - Anyone hear any more about Keith Ellison (the democrat vice chair) and the allegations made against him?
I'd expect the #MeToo movement are making his life hell these days.


Keith Ellison.???? Any takers????
 I find it surprising the lack of mention from usual commentators especially since we're on this "she must be believed" buzz.

Kickham csc

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 241
    • View Profile
Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« Reply #13056 on: October 10, 2018, 11:32:45 AM »
You can’t understand the US unless you live there is a version of what in philosophy  is referred to as the “practical man” fallacy, the idea that nothing can exist with any meaning outside immediate physical experience. In football it is known as the “never kicked a ball in your life” theory.

Twitter is free. The NYT is $60 for an online sub.

It gives you context and an understanding that you don't have and cant experience by reading about it with preconceived notions. You cant choose who you meet in the same way as you can choose what you read so it exposes you to perspectives at a personal perspective that you just cant get working from concepts alone.

I'll give you an example. I know a couple of fellas one is Hispanic (whatever that is) the other is Asian (sort of). both young, educated, fairly nerdy, good jobs, good craic, decent lads. To you or me or any1 else they come across as down to earth, smart and normal.. But what do they do their free time? They drive out into their desert to drink beer and shoot guns at shitty targets they set up. I get a good ole laugh outta this cos to me its the most hillbilly thing I ever heard of. Now they hate Trump think he and most Republicans are morons but if you try and tell them they shouldn't be allowed to shoot their guns in the desert in the desert because some psychopath shot up a school they wouldn't think its ridiculous or be outraged or anything else... they would just laugh their heads off as to to them what you are saying would be completely illogical. A German fella got into it with them about guns once and starting citing all these countries with low gun crime rates, it soon shutup when they asked him about Switzerland (he didnt have a clue incidentally!) Now I don't know how they vote, I suspect blue but if the right GOP candidate came along they would vote for them in a flinch.

Now this is the thing you don't get about reading politics in America you don't get the one on one interaction with people, so you don't really get to understand where they are coming from and how genuine they are.
You dont get a feel of the vastness of opinions, eventually you find out that everyone has a different opinion, no one it turns out fits the mould of a typical righty or liberal. And these people come in all shapes, shades, ages and places.
You dont get how politics affects you personally, your income, healthcare, roads, rent, crime in your area. And how you feel about that. You can hypothessze all you want about how you'll feel but the truth is... you just dont know until your in that situation.

Also... never kicked a ball is very true you would know it if ye ever did. I could never tell how good a footballer some is until I played agin or with them , it just gives you a perspective that you cant get when your watching in the stands....and commenting on American politics from Ireland well I am afraid your only watching in the stands.

And most Americans would think its hilarious that you even are watching from the stands, the only people that take notice of you are eejits like me expats...a good portion of whom cant or don't vote.

Whether or not you think people can understand something without direct experience depends on how your brain works. Some people can only do what they know.

What is going on in the US now is fascinating. An economic system is dying. The richest 1% own around 50% of everything. The GOP has managed to convince people that this is fine.

And mainstream Democrats as well, it's all based on the American mentality; if you work hard enough you can make it too.

When you talk to republicans and democrats (in NJ, as the differences between the two have regional variances), the conversations will centre around the following arguments, big government 'v' small government, new immigrants needing to adapt to America, not the other way around ''v' America should be set up to ease entry into American society (immigrant support services). immigration policy, (economic immigrant policy 'v' family immigrant policy), and lastly taxes.

During discussions that I've had, I've always found them to being interesting, and the rep and demo leaning people have honest points.

For example, Rep attitude to taxes, lower corp taxes to encourage company's to employ more people in USA with better paid jobs which in turn helps pull people out of poverty 'v' high taxes to support the poor with benefits

These are the debates that you will exposed to while living in America, debates that you wont hear in the news channels.
All these debates are universal and in their US context endless reams of debates about them are easily accessible online.

In that case, would you agreed that people from outside Northern Ireland would understand the NI people, politics and local issues by watching our political leaders debate on TV?

Or would you agree with the statement that  people would understand the complexities of the border to the same level as the local border communities by watching the DUP / Tories / Sinn Fein debate on line.

Or would the people living in the country have a deeper understanding of the issues via living in the community 'v' someone who watched online debates

seafoid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22136
    • View Profile
Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« Reply #13057 on: October 10, 2018, 12:42:56 PM »
Beto O Rourke is polling 6 points behind Ted Cruz

https://realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2018/senate/tx/texas_senate_cruz_vs_orourke-6310.html

Cruz is the man many people love to hate


https://newrepublic.com/article/128808/everybody-hates-ted

Should be interesting
Those biscuits are for the visitors

sid waddell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1796
    • View Profile
Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« Reply #13058 on: October 10, 2018, 12:50:52 PM »
You can’t understand the US unless you live there is a version of what in philosophy  is referred to as the “practical man” fallacy, the idea that nothing can exist with any meaning outside immediate physical experience. In football it is known as the “never kicked a ball in your life” theory.

Twitter is free. The NYT is $60 for an online sub.

It gives you context and an understanding that you don't have and cant experience by reading about it with preconceived notions. You cant choose who you meet in the same way as you can choose what you read so it exposes you to perspectives at a personal perspective that you just cant get working from concepts alone.

I'll give you an example. I know a couple of fellas one is Hispanic (whatever that is) the other is Asian (sort of). both young, educated, fairly nerdy, good jobs, good craic, decent lads. To you or me or any1 else they come across as down to earth, smart and normal.. But what do they do their free time? They drive out into their desert to drink beer and shoot guns at shitty targets they set up. I get a good ole laugh outta this cos to me its the most hillbilly thing I ever heard of. Now they hate Trump think he and most Republicans are morons but if you try and tell them they shouldn't be allowed to shoot their guns in the desert in the desert because some psychopath shot up a school they wouldn't think its ridiculous or be outraged or anything else... they would just laugh their heads off as to to them what you are saying would be completely illogical. A German fella got into it with them about guns once and starting citing all these countries with low gun crime rates, it soon shutup when they asked him about Switzerland (he didnt have a clue incidentally!) Now I don't know how they vote, I suspect blue but if the right GOP candidate came along they would vote for them in a flinch.

Now this is the thing you don't get about reading politics in America you don't get the one on one interaction with people, so you don't really get to understand where they are coming from and how genuine they are.
You dont get a feel of the vastness of opinions, eventually you find out that everyone has a different opinion, no one it turns out fits the mould of a typical righty or liberal. And these people come in all shapes, shades, ages and places.
You dont get how politics affects you personally, your income, healthcare, roads, rent, crime in your area. And how you feel about that. You can hypothessze all you want about how you'll feel but the truth is... you just dont know until your in that situation.

Also... never kicked a ball is very true you would know it if ye ever did. I could never tell how good a footballer some is until I played agin or with them , it just gives you a perspective that you cant get when your watching in the stands....and commenting on American politics from Ireland well I am afraid your only watching in the stands.

And most Americans would think its hilarious that you even are watching from the stands, the only people that take notice of you are eejits like me expats...a good portion of whom cant or don't vote.

Whether or not you think people can understand something without direct experience depends on how your brain works. Some people can only do what they know.

What is going on in the US now is fascinating. An economic system is dying. The richest 1% own around 50% of everything. The GOP has managed to convince people that this is fine.

And mainstream Democrats as well, it's all based on the American mentality; if you work hard enough you can make it too.

When you talk to republicans and democrats (in NJ, as the differences between the two have regional variances), the conversations will centre around the following arguments, big government 'v' small government, new immigrants needing to adapt to America, not the other way around ''v' America should be set up to ease entry into American society (immigrant support services). immigration policy, (economic immigrant policy 'v' family immigrant policy), and lastly taxes.

During discussions that I've had, I've always found them to being interesting, and the rep and demo leaning people have honest points.

For example, Rep attitude to taxes, lower corp taxes to encourage company's to employ more people in USA with better paid jobs which in turn helps pull people out of poverty 'v' high taxes to support the poor with benefits

These are the debates that you will exposed to while living in America, debates that you wont hear in the news channels.
All these debates are universal and in their US context endless reams of debates about them are easily accessible online.

In that case, would you agreed that people from outside Northern Ireland would understand the NI people, politics and local issues by watching our political leaders debate on TV?

Or would you agree with the statement that  people would understand the complexities of the border to the same level as the local border communities by watching the DUP / Tories / Sinn Fein debate on line.

Or would the people living in the country have a deeper understanding of the issues via living in the community 'v' someone who watched online debates
I'm not from Northern Ireland and intricately understand all these things, mainly by watching television and reading.


Kickham csc

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 241
    • View Profile
Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« Reply #13059 on: October 10, 2018, 03:30:24 PM »
You can’t understand the US unless you live there is a version of what in philosophy  is referred to as the “practical man” fallacy, the idea that nothing can exist with any meaning outside immediate physical experience. In football it is known as the “never kicked a ball in your life” theory.

Twitter is free. The NYT is $60 for an online sub.

It gives you context and an understanding that you don't have and cant experience by reading about it with preconceived notions. You cant choose who you meet in the same way as you can choose what you read so it exposes you to perspectives at a personal perspective that you just cant get working from concepts alone.

I'll give you an example. I know a couple of fellas one is Hispanic (whatever that is) the other is Asian (sort of). both young, educated, fairly nerdy, good jobs, good craic, decent lads. To you or me or any1 else they come across as down to earth, smart and normal.. But what do they do their free time? They drive out into their desert to drink beer and shoot guns at shitty targets they set up. I get a good ole laugh outta this cos to me its the most hillbilly thing I ever heard of. Now they hate Trump think he and most Republicans are morons but if you try and tell them they shouldn't be allowed to shoot their guns in the desert in the desert because some psychopath shot up a school they wouldn't think its ridiculous or be outraged or anything else... they would just laugh their heads off as to to them what you are saying would be completely illogical. A German fella got into it with them about guns once and starting citing all these countries with low gun crime rates, it soon shutup when they asked him about Switzerland (he didnt have a clue incidentally!) Now I don't know how they vote, I suspect blue but if the right GOP candidate came along they would vote for them in a flinch.

Now this is the thing you don't get about reading politics in America you don't get the one on one interaction with people, so you don't really get to understand where they are coming from and how genuine they are.
You dont get a feel of the vastness of opinions, eventually you find out that everyone has a different opinion, no one it turns out fits the mould of a typical righty or liberal. And these people come in all shapes, shades, ages and places.
You dont get how politics affects you personally, your income, healthcare, roads, rent, crime in your area. And how you feel about that. You can hypothessze all you want about how you'll feel but the truth is... you just dont know until your in that situation.

Also... never kicked a ball is very true you would know it if ye ever did. I could never tell how good a footballer some is until I played agin or with them , it just gives you a perspective that you cant get when your watching in the stands....and commenting on American politics from Ireland well I am afraid your only watching in the stands.

And most Americans would think its hilarious that you even are watching from the stands, the only people that take notice of you are eejits like me expats...a good portion of whom cant or don't vote.

Whether or not you think people can understand something without direct experience depends on how your brain works. Some people can only do what they know.

What is going on in the US now is fascinating. An economic system is dying. The richest 1% own around 50% of everything. The GOP has managed to convince people that this is fine.

And mainstream Democrats as well, it's all based on the American mentality; if you work hard enough you can make it too.

When you talk to republicans and democrats (in NJ, as the differences between the two have regional variances), the conversations will centre around the following arguments, big government 'v' small government, new immigrants needing to adapt to America, not the other way around ''v' America should be set up to ease entry into American society (immigrant support services). immigration policy, (economic immigrant policy 'v' family immigrant policy), and lastly taxes.

During discussions that I've had, I've always found them to being interesting, and the rep and demo leaning people have honest points.

For example, Rep attitude to taxes, lower corp taxes to encourage company's to employ more people in USA with better paid jobs which in turn helps pull people out of poverty 'v' high taxes to support the poor with benefits

These are the debates that you will exposed to while living in America, debates that you wont hear in the news channels.
All these debates are universal and in their US context endless reams of debates about them are easily accessible online.

In that case, would you agreed that people from outside Northern Ireland would understand the NI people, politics and local issues by watching our political leaders debate on TV?

Or would you agree with the statement that  people would understand the complexities of the border to the same level as the local border communities by watching the DUP / Tories / Sinn Fein debate on line.

Or would the people living in the country have a deeper understanding of the issues via living in the community 'v' someone who watched online debates
I'm not from Northern Ireland and intricately understand all these things, mainly by watching television and reading.
I doubt it.

My club was hammered last year in the public domain regarding PH , and zero nuance surrounding the community history in regards to police harassment / threats, how a significant section of the club supported PH, was communicated in any debate / newspapers. Yet everybody on this website and in NI society had "expert" opinions on what had happened, yet nobody outside of the community did

omaghjoe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3208
    • View Profile
Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« Reply #13060 on: October 10, 2018, 03:44:15 PM »
You can’t understand the US unless you live there is a version of what in philosophy  is referred to as the “practical man” fallacy, the idea that nothing can exist with any meaning outside immediate physical experience. In football it is known as the “never kicked a ball in your life” theory.

Twitter is free. The NYT is $60 for an online sub.

It gives you context and an understanding that you don't have and cant experience by reading about it with preconceived notions. You cant choose who you meet in the same way as you can choose what you read so it exposes you to perspectives at a personal perspective that you just cant get working from concepts alone.

I'll give you an example. I know a couple of fellas one is Hispanic (whatever that is) the other is Asian (sort of). both young, educated, fairly nerdy, good jobs, good craic, decent lads. To you or me or any1 else they come across as down to earth, smart and normal.. But what do they do their free time? They drive out into their desert to drink beer and shoot guns at shitty targets they set up. I get a good ole laugh outta this cos to me its the most hillbilly thing I ever heard of. Now they hate Trump think he and most Republicans are morons but if you try and tell them they shouldn't be allowed to shoot their guns in the desert in the desert because some psychopath shot up a school they wouldn't think its ridiculous or be outraged or anything else... they would just laugh their heads off as to to them what you are saying would be completely illogical. A German fella got into it with them about guns once and starting citing all these countries with low gun crime rates, it soon shutup when they asked him about Switzerland (he didnt have a clue incidentally!) Now I don't know how they vote, I suspect blue but if the right GOP candidate came along they would vote for them in a flinch.

Now this is the thing you don't get about reading politics in America you don't get the one on one interaction with people, so you don't really get to understand where they are coming from and how genuine they are.
You dont get a feel of the vastness of opinions, eventually you find out that everyone has a different opinion, no one it turns out fits the mould of a typical righty or liberal. And these people come in all shapes, shades, ages and places.
You dont get how politics affects you personally, your income, healthcare, roads, rent, crime in your area. And how you feel about that. You can hypothessze all you want about how you'll feel but the truth is... you just dont know until your in that situation.

Also... never kicked a ball is very true you would know it if ye ever did. I could never tell how good a footballer some is until I played agin or with them , it just gives you a perspective that you cant get when your watching in the stands....and commenting on American politics from Ireland well I am afraid your only watching in the stands.

And most Americans would think its hilarious that you even are watching from the stands, the only people that take notice of you are eejits like me expats...a good portion of whom cant or don't vote.

Whether or not you think people can understand something without direct experience depends on how your brain works. Some people can only do what they know.

What is going on in the US now is fascinating. An economic system is dying. The richest 1% own around 50% of everything. The GOP has managed to convince people that this is fine.

And mainstream Democrats as well, it's all based on the American mentality; if you work hard enough you can make it too.

When you talk to republicans and democrats (in NJ, as the differences between the two have regional variances), the conversations will centre around the following arguments, big government 'v' small government, new immigrants needing to adapt to America, not the other way around ''v' America should be set up to ease entry into American society (immigrant support services). immigration policy, (economic immigrant policy 'v' family immigrant policy), and lastly taxes.

During discussions that I've had, I've always found them to being interesting, and the rep and demo leaning people have honest points.

For example, Rep attitude to taxes, lower corp taxes to encourage company's to employ more people in USA with better paid jobs which in turn helps pull people out of poverty 'v' high taxes to support the poor with benefits

These are the debates that you will exposed to while living in America, debates that you wont hear in the news channels.
All these debates are universal and in their US context endless reams of debates about them are easily accessible online.

In that case, would you agreed that people from outside Northern Ireland would understand the NI people, politics and local issues by watching our political leaders debate on TV?

Or would you agree with the statement that  people would understand the complexities of the border to the same level as the local border communities by watching the DUP / Tories / Sinn Fein debate on line.

Or would the people living in the country have a deeper understanding of the issues via living in the community 'v' someone who watched online debates
I'm not from Northern Ireland and intricately understand all these things, mainly by watching television and reading.

:) :) :) :)
This is the gift that keeps giving....

Funny how it is then why most (if not all) southerners including my cousins who visited multiple times a year and are well versed on NI tend to ask questions of the political situation if it arises in conversation. Much like I do with the south or for that matter of Belfast or Derry people, or even East Tyrone FFS. Everyone's experience is different so pretending you already know all about it your only really kidding yourself.
 



seafoid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22136
    • View Profile
Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« Reply #13061 on: October 10, 2018, 05:00:49 PM »
I don’t think a comparison of NI and the US is valid. NI is a small region where nothing much happens.
The US is the biggest economy in the world.
Those biscuits are for the visitors

seafoid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22136
    • View Profile
Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« Reply #13062 on: October 10, 2018, 05:15:09 PM »
The GOP think climate change is a Chinese hoax

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2018/oct/10/climate-change-what-will-happen-hellfire-california-forest-fires

I wonder what the lads in the Gaaboard 4 Chan think.
Those biscuits are for the visitors

Eamonnca1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5238
  • Catching the world in my headlights of justice
    • View Profile
Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« Reply #13063 on: October 10, 2018, 06:20:22 PM »


Hey Dr.

When you finish figuring out the problems back home and there seems to be a fair chunk of them, can you define "Rich", or maybe you are confusing it with successful, entrepreneurial and having spent their entire life working their ass off to build something, which when they pass on whatever is in their estate can be taxed at 50%, oh btw, they already paid income tax on those funds.
In the US, the top 1% account for 40% of all taxes collected, the top 10% account for 70% of all taxes collected.
btw, if you have been fortunate enough to be in the top 10%, additionally you probably pay $20k+ in annual real estate taxes which go to local schools and services, you will be paying full freight for college $50k-$70k per year, (which I am fine with, (not the price but paying it) as there are a less fortunate folks with less means, and I truly believe that education is the long -term answer to generational problems.)

I did not include sending your kids to catholic grammar school or catholic high school.
so if you truly believe that their is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, or that the majority of folks who have been successful did not work for it, or don't pay taxes, then dream on.

Oh the poor downtrodden wealthy.

Wages have not been keeping up with growing corporate profits since the 1970s. Entrepreneurs like Elon Musk and Bill Gates are the exception to the rule. The majority of rich people did nothing to earn their wealth other than owning property, owning stocks, owning bonds, and owning all manner of stuff that they inherited from rich parents, a bit like the current US president.



sid waddell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1796
    • View Profile
Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« Reply #13064 on: October 10, 2018, 10:39:07 PM »
The majority of rich people did nothing to earn their wealth other than owning property, owning stocks, owning bonds, and owning all manner of stuff that they inherited from rich parents, a bit like the current US president.


There's a great quote from a book called "The View from Flyover Country" by Sarah Kendzior.

"When wealth is passed off as merit, bad luck is seen as bad character.

This is how ideologues justify punishing the sick and the poor but poverty is neither a crime nor a character flaw. Stigmatise those who let people die, not those who have struggled to live."