Unionism's big opportunity to shed its religious bigotry

[Donagh]

"Roman" Catholic I believe in general terms is used to differentiate from other Catholic churches including Greek, Byzantine, Oriental etc. In Western society anyone who describes themselves as "Catholic" is very likely to be a Roman Catholic though some other Catholic churches do appear in places.

In an Irish context, the term "Roman Catholic" is subjective. It can in some ways be fine in context, in other situations, alongside the phrase "Church of Rome", its use could be to try and discredit the patriotism of the followers by implying that their loyalty goes first and foremost to a foreign person/head of state and not the head of state of their own country, hence they are subservient to the country or society they live in. I'm sure everyone here has different opinions on it

Fionntamhnach, leaving aside the pejorative use of 'Roman' by the Free-Ps and others, 'Roman Catholic' is also used in reference to those who practise in the Roman Rite within the Catholic Church and those who don't e.g. my sister-in-law is an Ethiopian Catholic in full communion with the Catholic Church but she does not practise in any of the Roman Rites (there are a few).

Among those who do practise within the Roman Rite in communion with the Catholic Church the term has been confused since the Second Vatican Council and the introduction of the "novus Ordo Missae" i.e. there is a tendency to associate the term 'Roman Catholic' only with those who practise the 'Novus Ordo' or modern Mass (and not those who go to the Tridentine Mass).

But as you say, the context can be everything.

[Maguire01]

I thought you didn't either? Maybe i'm confusing you with another poster.

I don't refer to myself as Catholic but I'm married to someone, an ex-frequent poster on this Board, who very much does describe herself as Catholic, but not Roman Catholic. I never met a Catholic who describes themselves as Roman Catholic - have you?

I don't know too many people who describe themselves on the basis of their religion full stop.

But you said that i was hardly likely to appreciate any offence, when i'm pretty much in the same boat as you in sofar as don't identify myself as a Catholic, but my partner is.
So if i can't appreciate it, it would stand to reason that you couldn't either.

You're a bit tetchy tonight Maguire. Does your partner identify herself as a Catholic or Roman Catholic? If you read back you'll see I didn't say you "can't appreciate it", but what I meant is that if that you don't have a personal devotion or appreicate what it means to those that do, then you are "hardly likely to fully appreciate" how it may cause offence.

And all i was saying was that if i am "hardly likely to fully appreciate it", then neither are you.

But anyway, i asked my partner if she would say she was a 'Catholic' or 'Roman Catholic' - she said she would say she was a 'Catholic' but that if someone asked her if she was a Roman Catholic, she would say yes. She didn't see any issue with it.

[Donagh]

And all i was saying was that if i am "hardly likely to fully appreciate it", then neither are you.

But anyway, i asked my partner if she would say she was a 'Catholic' or 'Roman Catholic' - she said she would say she was a 'Catholic' but that if someone asked her if she was a Roman Catholic, she would say yes. She didn't see any issue with it.

Well that's fair enough. I live with someone who does take offence to being called a Roman Catholic so maybe I'm a little more sensitised to it than you may be. I'm also guessing that as it's used pejoratively by certain non-Catholic groupings that others may also take offence  I think one or two may have acknowledged that on this thread. Anyway, it's not something I'd fall out with someone over as I know that most Catholics wouldn't raise an objection as they would think it uncharitable to assume someone was being deliberately offensive, but in this day and age I believe it is at the very least discourteous not to be aware of such things. In the context of everyday speech in this part of the world, I think we all know what is meant by saying Catholic when talking about religion (unless you are High Anglican - in which case even they will describe themselves as Anglican unless actually discussing their particular ritual practices).

[carribbear]

Well that's fair enough. I live with someone who does take offence to being called a Roman Catholic so maybe I'm a little more sensitised to it than you may be. I'm also guessing that as it's used pejoratively by certain non-Catholic groupings that others may also take offence  I think one or two may have acknowledged that on this thread. Anyway, it's not something I'd fall out with someone over as I know that most Catholics wouldn't raise an objection as they would think it uncharitable to assume someone was being deliberately offensive, but in this day and age I believe it is at the very least discourteous not to be aware of such things. In the context of everyday speech in this part of the world, I think we all know what is meant by saying Catholic when talking about religion (unless you are High Anglican - in which case even they will describe themselves as Anglican unless actually discussing their particular ritual practices).

I'm not offended by it but I just like to correct things as I go along.
I'll have to remind myself from now on to refer to anglicans/church of ireland as Catholic-Lite and Presbyterians as deviants. 

[Roger]

When distinguishing between the Christian churches the Catholic Church often is described as Roman Catholic and is fairly common place around the world to do so, and is accepted as such.  It is not meant as a derogatory description and many Catholics do so themselves too.  By taking offense at it just seems to be silly and it could be argued that not to do so would offend others.

[ziggysego]

So we're offending people by not getting offended? Whatever you reckon.

[Roger]

So we're offending people by not getting offended? Whatever you reckon.

I meant that it could be argued that by not describing the Catholic Church as Roman Catholic, it could offend other people too. 

[ziggysego]

The Roman doesn't offends me. Niggles at me, but doesn't offend.

[Maguire01]

When distinguishing between the Christian churches the Catholic Church often is described as Roman Catholic and is fairly common place around the world to do so, and is accepted as such.  It is not meant as a derogatory description and many Catholics do so themselves too.  By taking offense at it just seems to be silly and it could be argued that not to do so would offend others.

You were almost on track until the last sentence - especially the last part.

[lynchbhoy]

When distinguishing between the Christian churches the Catholic Church often is described as Roman Catholic and is fairly common place around the world to do so, and is accepted as such.  It is not meant as a derogatory description and many Catholics do so themselves too.  By taking offense at it just seems to be silly and it could be argued that not to do so would offend others.

not amongst any Catholics in any countries I know

plus the greeks and russians call themselves othadox not catholics - well the ones I have met at least...would expect that they are indicative of the rest ..

[Roger]

When distinguishing between the Christian churches the Catholic Church often is described as Roman Catholic and is fairly common place around the world to do so, and is accepted as such.  It is not meant as a derogatory description and many Catholics do so themselves too.  By taking offense at it just seems to be silly and it could be argued that not to do so would offend others.

not amongst any Catholics in any countries I know

plus the greeks and russians call themselves othadox not catholics - well the ones I have met at least...would expect that they are indicative of the rest ..

Do a quick google on the three words in question. You'll readily find a number of Catholic organisations describing themselves as Roman Catholic.

[Maguire01]

Very true. Even the Irish Church uses it on their own websites.

PRESS RELEASE
10 March 2009
Joint Statement from the Bishops of Dromore on the Murder of a Police Officer in Craigavon

From:
- Right Revd Harold Miller, Church of Ireland Bishop of Down and Dromore
- Most Revd John McAreavey, Roman Catholic Bishop of Dromore


The cold-blooded murder of a policeman who has served the community for twenty years, while doing his duty in Craigavon last night, was a morally bankrupt act.....

http://www.catholicbishops.ie/media-centre/press-release-archive/64-press-release-archive-2009/1271-46-2009
That site in particular is littered with referenced to 'Roman Catholic' - i've copied just one recent (and very relevant) example.

[Roger]

Very true. Even the Irish Church uses it on their own websites.

PRESS RELEASE
10 March 2009
Joint Statement from the Bishops of Dromore on the Murder of a Police Officer in Craigavon

From:
- Right Revd Harold Miller, Church of Ireland Bishop of Down and Dromore
- Most Revd John McAreavey, Roman Catholic Bishop of Dromore


The cold-blooded murder of a policeman who has served the community for twenty years, while doing his duty in Craigavon last night, was a morally bankrupt act.....

http://www.catholicbishops.ie/media-centre/press-release-archive/64-press-release-archive-2009/1271-46-2009
That site in particular is littered with referenced to 'Roman Catholic' - i've copied just one recent (and very relevant) example.

Offending themselves then? Must be Unionists, sectarian, coat trailing apartheid-esque, West Brit sort of Catholics

[saffron sam2]

Since we've moved into the realms of poetry on other threads, I thought I'd add a song to this one.

All together now.

Roamin in the Gloamin with a shamrock in my hand.

Roamin in the Gloamin with St Patrick's fenian band.

And when the music stops, f**k King Billy and John Knox

Oh it's great to be a Roman Catholic!

[Donagh]

When distinguishing between the Christian churches the Catholic Church often is described as Roman Catholic and is fairly common place around the world to do so, and is accepted as such.  It is not meant as a derogatory description and many Catholics do so themselves too.  By taking offense at it just seems to be silly and it could be argued that not to do so would offend others.

It is not a common thing to do but even if it was, it wouldn't make it any less offensive.